The bed-wetting theory

[Ames]

My statement doesn't require "facts" about whether or not she went to bed.
It is a personal opinion. I don't believe she wet the bed because I don't believe she slept in it. Actually, I did word that wrong. I don't believe she slept in her bed that night.

She, alot of times....slept in her brother's room, in the other bed (there were two beds in his room too), maybe because both of the beds in her room were so messy. I have often wondered if she maybe wet THAT bed, and the sheets were washed and dried.

 

[MurriFlower]

Well, first her arms...they were not tied behind her back. This has been explained before, but rigor mortis freezes the body in position, and if her arms had been tied behind her back, they would still have been there when she was brought up. We know for a FACT that her arms were up in front of her, bent in an approx. right angle at the elbow. We can see that in the crime photo I posted awhile back.

The small, round abrasions vex me. (love that word- vex). They look like cigarette burns by their shape and size, but a coroner should have been able to identify them as such, as the skin would be burned, which would look different (especially to a coroner) than an abrasion.
I have to say that they also DO look like stun gun marks, especially the ones on her back. The mark on her cheek does, too, but there is only one. Long ago I saw it discussed that possibly the second prong of the stun gun had been placed on the tape over her mouth and that's why there was only one mark. And if I look at that photo of her with a partial view of her chin and mouth I sometimes think I do see a much fainter mark on her cheek parallel to the first one.
How I wish the coroner had done more to determine whether the flesh was burned. Or maybe he did, and simply found that the skin was abraded, as he said. I would have wanted to know for sure, if I were the parent. I'd have had the body exhumed.
I have seen it suggested that the marks came from a ring Patsy may have worn- she is seen wearing a rather large cocktail ring with several small diamonds. The ring is top-heavy and is seen on her finger (during a TV appearance) as having slipped around to the palm side of her hand. I just don't know about those marks...

Sometimes you vex me DD. I never said her arms were 'tied behind her back', but the cord was tied from one wrist around behind her back to the other wrist, the arms were crossed IN FRONT of her. When she was taken from wherever she was killed (the hallway?) to the winecellar, I think she was dragged or lifted by the arms and they ended up being pulled up, with the cord still attached. I'm sure we've been over this before, so I don't know how to explain it better so you understand.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, there are clearly THREE. One for the size 12s, one for the waistband of the longjohns, and the third would have to be from either the original size 6 panties or the shirt, or if the shirt was pushed up in the back, it could be from the folds of the white blanket underneath. What is clear to me is that the marks do not seem to go all the way around her (circumferential), unlike the ligature furrow. And their color (white) indicated postmortem pressure during UNfixed lividity. (closer to the TOD rather than later). Because no one saw the body in situ except JR and FW, we do not know the exact position of the blanket around her. We know the exact position of the BODY because she was in full rigor when found and brought up, remaining that way until the autopsy on the 27th, at which time rigor was beginning to dissipate or was "broken" by the coroner.
Keep in mind that although the waistbands of her clothing DO go all the way around her, death relaxes then hardens the flesh, and pressure on JB's corpse lying supine (on her back) is not equally distributed. The weight and gravity presses to the floor, or lowest point the body touches. Had JB been lying prone (on her stomach) the marks would be on her stomach and not her back. A LIVE person would not show such marks, even sleeping wearing the same clothing. For one, the flesh is soft and yielding in life, and also the garments would have to be fairly tight to make any mark, which would be red in a live person. Similar to a blouse with elastic at the wrist or pants with a snug elastic waist.

DeeDee249,

Lots of unknowns here e.g. how thick is the edging on the white gap top, also if the gap top had ridden up and the white blanket then marked her back. Why is there not a fourth mark representing the gap top where it has moved up?

John stated that the blanket was wrapped papoose like around her body, but I reckon much of what you say might explain the third mark.


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[UKGuy]

How did you post that picture on the list UK?

DD thanks for looking. The first mark (left hs) is quite broad and indistinct and goes only part way. The middle mark is sharp and seems to go all round. The third (right hs) is the one that interests me, as it has very distinct edges. It does not look like a mark made by something wrapped in fabric as elastic inside panties or the longjohns would. That's why I believe this may be from another length of cord. I suggested that the reason for the length (15"?) between the wrist ties was that her arms were crossed in front and tied to each other behind her back, (like a straight jacket). So I feel that this picture tends to support my theory.

Just on this and while we are looking closely at that picture, can you also comment on the marks that were unidentified, but that some people thought might be stun gun burns?

This picture is much clearer than the ones on ACR and you can see what appears to be swelling or puffiness of the skin around these two marks. It's more noticeable toward the side closest to the table. It seems to extend 1.2 - 2 cm around the smaller mark and about 2.5 - 3cm around the larger one. I'm trying to think what would make marks like this that causes swelling around it to this extent. When you look at these marks closely the larger mark appears as if it could be a burn with a lighter area in the centre, but they are both definitely rectangular/square not round. It's a mystery to me.

MurriFlower,

How did you post that picture on the list UK?

Just use the img code instead of the Link code.



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[Ames]

Sometimes you vex me DD. I never said her arms were 'tied behind her back', but the cord was tied from one wrist around behind her back to the other wrist, the arms were crossed IN FRONT of her. When she was taken from wherever she was killed (the hallway?) to the winecellar, I think she was dragged or lifted by the arms and they ended up being pulled up, with the cord still attached. I'm sure we've been over this before, so I don't know how to explain it better so you understand.

You are wrong MF, go back and read John's interview. He describes completely how her hands were tied. One wrist was tied, and then the other...with the rope remaining in the front...it never went behind her back. There was a few inches of rope though, between the two wrists...some people even think that she was tied, AFTER rigor had started to set in (I am one of those people). When "found" by John, her arms were up over her head. I believe..the reason for so much rope between the wrists...is because of the rigor...the person that tied them, couldn't move them any closer together. She was carried to the WC, not dragged or pulled...garland from the stair case railing was found in her hair.

 

[Ames]

Well, first her arms...they were not tied behind her back. This has been explained before, but rigor mortis freezes the body in position, and if her arms had been tied behind her back, they would still have been there when she was brought up. We know for a FACT that her arms were up in front of her, bent in an approx. right angle at the elbow. We can see that in the crime photo I posted awhile back.

The small, round abrasions vex me. (love that word- vex). They look like cigarette burns by their shape and size, but a coroner should have been able to identify them as such, as the skin would be burned, which would look different (especially to a coroner) than an abrasion.
I have to say that they also DO look like stun gun marks, especially the ones on her back. The mark on her cheek does, too, but there is only one. Long ago I saw it discussed that possibly the second prong of the stun gun had been placed on the tape over her mouth and that's why there was only one mark. And if I look at that photo of her with a partial view of her chin and mouth I sometimes think I do see a much fainter mark on her cheek parallel to the first one.
How I wish the coroner had done more to determine whether the flesh was burned. Or maybe he did, and simply found that the skin was abraded, as he said. I would have wanted to know for sure, if I were the parent. I'd have had the body exhumed.
I have seen it suggested that the marks came from a ring Patsy may have worn- she is seen wearing a rather large cocktail ring with several small diamonds. The ring is top-heavy and is seen on her finger (during a TV appearance) as having slipped around to the palm side of her hand. I just don't know about those marks...

I wonder if they could tell WHEN those marks were made??

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder if they could tell WHEN those marks were made??

No, they can't pinpoint exactly, but they do know the marks HAD to be made sometime between death and fixed lividity. They were made during the period of NON-fixed lividity, while the blood and tissue were in the blanching stage.

 

[DeeDee249]

Sometimes you vex me DD. I never said her arms were 'tied behind her back', but the cord was tied from one wrist around behind her back to the other wrist, the arms were crossed IN FRONT of her. When she was taken from wherever she was killed (the hallway?) to the winecellar, I think she was dragged or lifted by the arms and they ended up being pulled up, with the cord still attached. I'm sure we've been over this before, so I don't know how to explain it better so you understand.

I just love that word.."vex". It says so perfectly what that feeling is.

I suppose the cord could have gone around her back, though it was not found actually tied to the other wrist. It was certainly long enough. OK-so that would be one explanation for the length of the cord. That, and another explanation is possibly it was put around her wrist AFTER her arms were fixed by rigor mortis.
I feel JB was put in the wineceller after death. I don't think she was dragged. There would be evidence of that in the considerable quite thick layer of mould on the wineceller floor. We also know from her livor mortis pattern that she was not moved during the time livor was unfixed (the first 15-20 minutes or so after death) because then there would be TWO livor patterns and JB had only ONE. So the time between her death (likely on her stomach) and her placement on her back in the wineceller was 20 minutes or less. During that time, the white marks formed as she lay on her back. I must note that I do not think the wrist cords were put on before death, or they would have been tighter (if they were intended to restrain) and both would be tied and there would be a red mark on her wrists. Nor was it put on during the early blanching stage of livor mortis. Rather, the lack of either a white OR red mark indicates to me that the wrist cord was put on her after lividity was fixed, which would make no mark, and possibly after the onset of rigor mortis.

 

[MurriFlower]

I just love that word.."vex". It says so perfectly what that feeling is.

I suppose the cord could have gone around her back, though it was not found actually tied to the other wrist. It was certainly long enough. OK-so that would be one explanation for the length of the cord. That, and another explanation is possibly it was put around her wrist AFTER her arms were fixed by rigor mortis.
I feel JB was put in the wineceller after death. I don't think she was dragged. There would be evidence of that in the considerable quite thick layer of mould on the wineceller floor. We also know from her livor mortis pattern that she was not moved during the time livor was unfixed (the first 15-20 minutes or so after death) because then there would be TWO livor patterns and JB had only ONE. So the time between her death (likely on her stomach) and her placement on her back in the wineceller was 20 minutes or less. During that time, the white marks formed as she lay on her back. I must note that I do not think the wrist cords were put on before death, or they would have been tighter (if they were intended to restrain) and both would be tied and there would be a red mark on her wrists. Nor was it put on during the early blanching stage of livor mortis. Rather, the lack of either a white OR red mark indicates to me that the wrist cord was put on her after lividity was fixed, which would make no mark, and possibly after the onset of rigor mortis.

Yes, if what you say is correct it is difficult to have left a blanching pattern and then to have arms fixed in another position before rigor. Difficult, but not impossible, I'm thinking.

In trying to find a picture on the net that describes what I was describing, I went into a few 'grey areas' that had warnings on them!! Not into S&M at all so I backed out pretty quickly. However, these made me think. The subjects had straight jackets on and were tied with cord by the legs to the bed posts. Did JBR have marks on her ankles by any chance?

 

[MurriFlower]

You are wrong MF, go back and read John's interview. He describes completely how her hands were tied. One wrist was tied, and then the other...with the rope remaining in the front...it never went behind her back. There was a few inches of rope though, between the two wrists...some people even think that she was tied, AFTER rigor had started to set in (I am one of those people). When "found" by John, her arms were up over her head. I believe..the reason for so much rope between the wrists...is because of the rigor...the person that tied them, couldn't move them any closer together. She was carried to the WC, not dragged or pulled...garland from the stair case railing was found in her hair.

No, I think it is you who is wrong Ames. There was a total of 21" of cord. You will see from the crime scene photo that her arms were bent at the elbows with the cord still behind her head. Even in the tabloid drawing (not completely accurate) the cord could be described as behind her head. I am not saying that it was behind her back when found, but originally her arms were crossed in front of her, then cord tied to each wrist and around behind her back straight jacket style. Try it yourself and see what I mean. You don't need to tie the slip knots tight, nor does the cord need to be tight, but you are totally unable to escape. If you struggle you can 'saw' the cord back and forth and this may be what left a mark around her back.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, if what you say is correct it is difficult to have left a blanching pattern and then to have arms fixed in another position before rigor. Difficult, but not impossible, I'm thinking.

In trying to find a picture on the net that describes what I was describing, I went into a few 'grey areas' that had warnings on them!! Not into S&M at all so I backed out pretty quickly. However, these made me think. The subjects had straight jackets on and were tied with cord by the legs to the bed posts. Did JBR have marks on her ankles by any chance?

Her arms weren't really "crossed" in front of her, but they WERE up in front of her. I liken their position to a boxer.

As for the situation with the livor/rigor being at odds...I'd say impossible. Science is not that flexible, and the state of JB when found is not open to too much interpretation. Forensic science has standards for these things, and though there is some variable time constraints, bodied found in known ambient air temperatures usually progress according to known scientific expectations.

 

[Ames]

No, I think it is you who is wrong Ames. There was a total of 21" of cord. You will see from the crime scene photo that her arms were bent at the elbows with the cord still behind her head. Even in the tabloid drawing (not completely accurate) the cord could be described as behind her head. I am not saying that it was behind her back when found, but originally her arms were crossed in front of her, then cord tied to each wrist and around behind her back straight jacket style. Try it yourself and see what I mean. You don't need to tie the slip knots tight, nor does the cord need to be tight, but you are totally unable to escape. If you struggle you can 'saw' the cord back and forth and this may be what left a mark around her back.

Yes, I know how she was found...I just misunderstood what you meant. Sorry about that. I thought that you were saying that she was FOUND with her wrists tied, and the rope going behind her back. If she were tied "straight jacket" style (thanks for the visual...it gave me more of an idea of what you were talking about)...then how did her arms end up in the boxing position out in front of her...in your opinion? IMO...after she was killed...the Ramsey's panicked...and left her down there while they thought up a plan....and left her down there while the RN was written...and then went back, and tied the wrists...after rigor had already set in.

 

[MurriFlower]

Yes, I know how she was found...I just misunderstood what you meant. Sorry about that. I thought that you were saying that she was FOUND with her wrists tied, and the rope going behind her back. If she were tied "straight jacket" style (thanks for the visual...it gave me more of an idea of what you were talking about)...then how did her arms end up in the boxing position out in front of her...in your opinion? IMO...after she was killed...the Ramsey's panicked...and left her down there while they thought up a plan....and left her down there while the RN was written...and then went back, and tied the wrists...after rigor had already set in.

Thanks for that, I've been a bit unsuccessful in explaining it previously, so I'm pleased you understood.

Well, it's a bit hard to prove without a 6yo to practice on (can you imagine trying to explain that to it's mother LOL). I'm thinking that once she was unconscious or immediately after death, her arms would offer no resistence and if you grabbed her by her forearms to lift or drag her, then the arms with the cord still attached behind her back could just slip up. I know what you mean about the boxing position, but if you wanted to move someone who was limp without holding them to you, you would grab the arms that are crossed at her waist and you could imagine it ending with elbows bent and hands in front of her face, cord still behind her head.

 

[Ames]

Thanks for that, I've been a bit unsuccessful in explaining it previously, so I'm pleased you understood.

Well, it's a bit hard to prove without a 6yo to practice on (can you imagine trying to explain that to it's mother LOL). I'm thinking that once she was unconscious or immediately after death, her arms would offer no resistence and if you grabbed her by her forearms to lift or drag her, then the arms with the cord still attached behind her back could just slip up. I know what you mean about the boxing position, but if you wanted to move someone who was limp without holding them to you, you would grab the arms that are crossed at her waist and you could imagine it ending with elbows bent and hands in front of her face, cord still behind her head.

LOL..yeah, trying to explain that to a six year old's mother, after practicing on them...would be a little bit tough.

Yeah, it is possible that she could have been tied that way and dragged, I guess.

 

[DeeDee249]

LOL..yeah, trying to explain that to a six year old's mother, after practicing on them...would be a little bit tough.

Yeah, it is possible that she could have been tied that way and dragged, I guess.

Not dragged into the wineceller, though. There would be evidence of that in the mold on the floor. She was carried in there, lifted and placed on the blanket, which had been placed on the floor first.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not dragged into the wineceller, though. There would be evidence of that in the mold on the floor. She was carried in there, lifted and placed on the blanket, which had been placed on the floor first.

Maybe, I was actually looking at just that when I found the cord and tape on the blanket in that photo,. The mould or whatever it is on the floor, (more like the white powder that comes out of concrete when it is wet - silica?) anyway that's not important. There is a mark to the left of the blanket with a very distinct shape, where there is no white powder. I was trying to figure out what could have made it. I can only describe it as a 'keyhole' shape. I was thinking that what ever it was would have had this white powder thickly on it as the floor is bare under where it was.

 

[DeeDee249]

Maybe, I was actually looking at just that when I found the cord and tape on the blanket in that photo,. The mould or whatever it is on the floor, (more like the white powder that comes out of concrete when it is wet - silica?) anyway that's not important. There is a mark to the left of the blanket with a very distinct shape, where there is no white powder. I was trying to figure out what could have made it. I can only describe it as a 'keyhole' shape. I was thinking that what ever it was would have had this white powder thickly on it as the floor is bare under where it was.

That's exactly what that mold was...a type that is often seen on unsealed concrete basement floors. I had it in the unfinished section of my own basement. It isn't the same kind of mold as the black mold or mildew that is caused by moisture. There were footprints in that wineceller mold. And it can't be determined when it was left. Many service people, repairmen, as well as LE, wear that type of shoe, and BR was eventually discovered to have owned a pair of Hi-Tec shoes (sneakers, I believe, that had a compass on the laces). Many boys of that age have adult-size feet. It would not be unusual for a boy almost 10 to wear an adult shoe. I have never seen that print identified as to the shoe size, only brand.

 

[MurriFlower]

That's exactly what that mold was...a type that is often seen on unsealed concrete basement floors. I had it in the unfinished section of my own basement. It isn't the same kind of mold as the black mold or mildew that is caused by moisture. There were footprints in that wineceller mold. And it can't be determined when it was left. Many service people, repairmen, as well as LE, wear that type of shoe, and BR was eventually discovered to have owned a pair of Hi-Tec shoes (sneakers, I believe, that had a compass on the laces). Many boys of that age have adult-size feet. It would not be unusual for a boy almost 10 to wear an adult shoe. I have never seen that print identified as to the shoe size, only brand.

No, I'm not talking about a footprint, this is much too large for that. I'd estimate judging by the door behind, it's about 60cm or 24 inches x 10 inches at the base. The base is very straight as are the sides leading up to a round top smaller than the base.

 

[DeeDee249]

No, I'm not talking about a footprint, this is much too large for that. I'd estimate judging by the door behind, it's about 60cm or 24 inches x 10 inches at the base. The base is very straight as are the sides leading up to a round top smaller than the base.

I see what you are referring to. Remember someone put her in that room, and this involved walking around the room, possibly even kneeling down. Interesting to note that the husband of the neighbor who reported hearing a child's scream around midnight wasn't awake to hear the scream, but when his wife woke him after SHE heard the scream, he reported hearing a sound like metal scraping concrete. A large sheet of metal was taken from that room by LE.

 

[MurriFlower]

I see what you are referring to. Remember someone put her in that room, and this involved walking around the room, possibly even kneeling down. Interesting to note that the husband of the neighbor who reported hearing a child's scream around midnight wasn't awake to hear the scream, but when his wife woke him after SHE heard the scream, he reported hearing a sound like metal scraping concrete. A large sheet of metal was taken from that room by LE.

Hmm, it certainly looks like something heavy had been there and then removed, as it's much too sharp an outline to have been from someone kneeling (which was what I thought too at first). But my understanding of these photos is that they were taken immediately after her body was found, so whatever had been there was already moved before the cops starting collecting evidence. I'm sure that eventually I'll remember what makes a shape like that, because it seems familiar.