The Conclusion

[Nehemiah]

JR had just gone through a horrible shock--and was told to leave his house. He had lost all confidence in the police--they were suppose to be the experts. Not only did they not handle the call correctly, the crime scene was contaminated, and time loss. On top of that, they then were out to get the Ramseys from the start.

I don't believe that J/P really knew this just a few short hours after "finding" their daughter's body. Although I personally don't believe that they murdered JB, I also don't think their evasiveness, lawyering up themselves separately, along with lawyering up family in another state, gives most people the idea of innocence on their part.

 

[Maikai]

I don't believe that J/P really knew this just a few short hours after "finding" their daughter's body. Although I personally don't believe that they murdered JB, I also don't think their evasiveness, lawyering up themselves separately, along with lawyering up family in another state, gives most people the idea of innocence on their part.

John and Patsy did not know what was going on as far as BPD focusing in on them as suspects right away. Their friend Mike Bynum, a former assistant DA in Boulder is the one that became aware of what was going on...and he should know what potentially can happen when someone becomes a target....and he may have had insight into the adversarial relationship between the DA's office and police long before this case.

The Ramseys were victims of this in-house fighting, and many of the BPD cops didn't like Koby on top of it. So you had all this squabbling going on behind the scenes....the media making the BPD look like a bunch of keystone cops...and a dead little girl with grief-stricken parents. They stood to lose everything including being falsely accused. It makes sense to me, if you have the money, you'd hire lawyers to deal with it. But then you have another variable thrown in the mix---powerful lawyers in the state of Colorado which further PO'd the BPD.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

They let Burke play on the street or what? I think the idea was that they weren't going to stay in Boulder. Would you have?

Until the investigation was over? Absolutely.

Where would you stay?

 

[Brefie]

Where would you stay?

Anywhere - why would it matter?

 

[Jayelles]

Moab,

Your theory as I understand it is that the Ramseys hid the body in the house and staged a torture/sexual abuse/botched kidnap event, wrote the most ridiculous ransom note that no-one with half a brain would conclude was legitimate, and immediately called the police.

My question is: wouldn't it have been FAR, FAR simpler and FAR more likely to be successful, to delay calling the police for 24 hours, stage a plain old ordinary regular kidnapping, write a short realistic ransom note and have the dead child eventually found way away from the house?

I know I, Zman, Maikai, (and others?) have asked this question or ones similar to it before, but to date I have never seen a satisfactory answer to it. Which is why I am asking it again.

And why the hurry to have the police visit the house? And if as you say, they were expecting the police to come and do a brief search then leave immediately without finding the body, this being essential for their plan to work, how stupid was that? How could they reliably expect the police to behave this way?

Then according to your theory they write a ransom note supposedly left behind by the torturer/sexual abuser/failed kidnapper. What were the police supposed to have deduced from this? That the intending kidnapper wrote the note, left it on the stairs and then instead of leaving immediately with the child, stays in the house and tortures and abuses her and kills her.

John; staid, levelheaded, intelligent, left-brained, highly successful businessman that he was would never be party to the staging of such a ludicrous and inept scenario. IMO if John WAS guilty he would have done a FAR more clever coverup job than the one you are proposing. He at least would have had the sense not to leave a ransom note unless he had gotten rid of the body.

On the other hand, I can quite see Patsy writing the note, and I think she did, in fact write it at the behest of others but certainly not with John's involvement.

It's all very well for you to say yada yada yada as part of your theory but that just demonstrates to me that your theory is even too absurd for you to trouble yourself to try go into sufficient detail to expain it satisfactorily.








You then seem to change tack and go on to theorise that because the police didn't leave quickly, that John had to stage 'finding' the body himself while the police were still there. You'll have to explain this to me, I simply don't follow.

At times I feel that we're going round and round the mulberry bush!

You ask why the Ramseys didn't delay calling the police for 24 hours and why they didn't use that time to stage a better kidnapping and dispose of the body far away from the house.

You say you've never seen a satisfactory answer to these questions.

OK - what were they supposed to tell Burke next day - about where JonBenet was?

What were they going to tell Mike Archuletta re the cancelled flight to Michigan next day? Or how were they going to explain a missing but a rather large, heavy and perhaps slightly smelly suitcase (which left the house but never arrived at the destination)?

What were they supposed to tell the older kids - who were booked on an early flight to Minneapolis where they were to be picked up by john Ramsey later that day and then all fly to Michigan together? OR how would they explain JonBenet's absence to the older kids?

What were they going to do about the little problem with the snow falling outside? Tyre tracks leading from and to the garage were going to be a little bit of a giveaway - no?

Basically, if the Ramseys were involved in JonBenet's death - they were going to be faced with a lot of cancellations and rearrangments for the following day in order to carry out the staging and body disposal. And remember - they could not leave the house that night because it was snowing. That, coupled with the fact that no external witness - or even Burke - would be able to say they'd seen JonBenet after the evening of 25th.

Let's turn the tables here. You say you've never seen a satisfactory explanation as to why they didn't delay calling the police, staging the kidnapping and disposing of the body for 24 hours. I challenge you to explain how they WOULD have achieved all of the above without raising the suspicions of Burke, Archuletta and the older Ramsey kids and friends.

 

[Maikai]

Biggest problem would have been meeting up with JAR, Melinda and boyfriend, but they could have made an excuse up, and asked them to check into a hotel--an illness--anything. Likewise Mike. Snow not a problem, because they could have gone to the bank and withdrew the money, to explain the tire tracks. If they could so brutally kill a child, they could have made sure her body was taken away from the house and dumped somewhere. 'Course I don't believe for one minute either one of them were involved.

JBR was pretty well protected when away from the house--even at the pageants. Pam relayed that, and considering her young age of 6 sounds plausible---no way Patsy Ramsey would invite pedophiles to be with her daughter, or let her hang out with them. JBR's personality was different from Burke's. She was gabby---she wouldn't have kept quiet about any inappropriate touching let alone assaults.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Anywhere - why would it matter?

Pick a place, go ahead. Hotel, friends house? Where?

Hotel: Hows the security there? Considering you've got someone who was able to sneak into the house and kill your daughter while you slept, a hotel would be even easier.

Friends house: Like they're really going to impose on friends and their families with a killer stalking them. Get real.

Given the R's had the option to leave Boulder, its quite obvious their motivation for doing so has more to do with security for themselves and their friends. IOW, they knew they were not spending another night in the same town with a killer stalking them. This is not a difficult concept.

 

[Brefie]

Pick a place, go ahead. Hotel, friends house? Where?

Hotel: Hows the security there? Considering you've got someone who was able to sneak into the house and kill your daughter while you slept, a hotel would be even easier.

Friends house: Like they're really going to impose on friends and their families with a killer stalking them. Get real.

Given the R's had the option to leave Boulder, its quite obvious their motivation for doing so has more to do with security for themselves and their friends. IOW, they knew they were not spending another night in the same town with a killer stalking them. This is not a difficult concept.

Sure.

 

[Maikai]

and family were all in Atlanta. Who would you rather be with? And where would you want to go in time of trouble? They left the house with the clothes on their backs..and had no idea what was before them.....and hadn't even comprehended the events of that day. Where was the support from their local law enforcement? IMO, the BPD were so shook up, the Ramseys themselves were secondary that day. BPD had to figure out what to do next.

 

[Brefie]

and family were all in Atlanta. Who would you rather be with? And where would you want to go in time of trouble? They left the house with the clothes on their backs..and had no idea what was before them.....and hadn't even comprehended the events of that day. Where was the support from their local law enforcement? IMO, the BPD were so shook up, the Ramseys themselves were secondary that day. BPD had to figure out what to do next.

I couldn't say for certain what I would do if my child was murdered, or who I would want to be with. One thing I can say for certain, is that I would not be trying to skip the state before the child was cold.

 

[deanws]

Until the investigation was over? Absolutely.

I would have also.:twocents:

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Pick a place, go ahead. Hotel, friends house? Where?

Hotel: Hows the security there? Considering you've got someone who was able to sneak into the house and kill your daughter while you slept, a hotel would be even easier.

Friends house: Like they're really going to impose on friends and their families with a killer stalking them. Get real.

Police could have assisted with hotel security, or they could have hired guards from any service of their choosing. The Rams hired Tracy Temple to shadow Burke at school when he returned, they could have hired her or anyone else to stand security in a hotel.

And they stayed with the Stines for some four months. They weren't stalked by any killers, just media. Susan Stine in particular was rather adept at running off photographers. Patsy called her a bull dog in that respect.

 

[simplesimon]

Zman and other NGR's,

I asked you before whom do you think the representatives are for the foreign faction?
I agree with you that it is very hard to think of the R's staging the death of JBR. I have a hard time with that also, as you said you have a family that looks normal,no convictions,etc.
BUT it is the only thing that makes sense.I know first hand that things can be covered and families can look normal but are anywhere near normal, RESRECTABLE parents. (And I am talking about a minister and his wife that a loved one lived with.)
The other thing is that if this was a foreign faction trying to get back at JR ,they really accomplished nothing for their cause. Most factions/terrorists would love the publicity and use it to drive fear in the public.But we never hear from them again.If it was a random killing ,the RN serves no purpose at all.
To me the actions of the R's speak loudly. The killers are still out there and I would still be fearful for my children,parents etc.I know life must go on, but wouldn't you be using all your resources to find them and guard your loved ones?

I am new to this forum but I have followed this case ,read books etc. like many others. I really like WS (Tricia's no nonsense approach cracks me up)and I really respect the time and effort put in on this case!Guilties and Non-guilties alike. I have learned so much and I am still learning.It just seems to me that strangers have put more effort into it than family.Yes and I know I do not know everything the R's did or are still doing.

I was on the fence for a time because of all the reasons stated here about how could the R's do this?
But I have since joined the guilties because it is the only thing that makes sense. At least to me and that is my opinion.

 

[Zman]

Zman and other NGR's,

I asked you before whom do you think the representatives are for the foreign faction?
I agree with you that it is very hard to think of the R's staging the death of JBR. I have a hard time with that also, as you said you have a family that looks normal,no convictions,etc.
BUT it is the only thing that makes sense.I know first hand that things can be covered and families can look normal but are anywhere near normal, RESRECTABLE parents. (And I am talking about a minister and his wife that a loved one lived with.)
The other thing is that if this was a foreign faction trying to get back at JR ,they really accomplished nothing for their cause. Most factions/terrorists would love the publicity and use it to drive fear in the public.But we never hear from them again.If it was a random killing ,the RN serves no purpose at all.
To me the actions of the R's speak loudly. The killers are still out there and I would still be fearful for my children,parents etc.I know life must go on, but wouldn't you be using all your resources to find them and guard your loved ones?

I am new to this forum but I have followed this case ,read books etc. like many others. I really like WS (Tricia's no nonsense approach cracks me up)and I really respect the time and effort put in on this case!Guilties and Non-guilties alike. I have learned so much and I am still learning.It just seems to me that strangers have put more effort into it than family.Yes and I know I do not know everything the R's did or are still doing.

I was on the fence for a time because of all the reasons stated here about how could the R's do this?
But I have since joined the guilties because it is the only thing that makes sense. At least to me and that is my opinion.

Well all I can tell you is personally I don't think I could ever figure out who murdered JBR. I just don't have the ability to know who hated JR enough to murder and disgrace his daughter. Although I support others who have the time and talent to try. Although now that we have so much info on a certain faith because of a certain war I am very interested in how the women of a family carry it's honnor. How disgracing that woman can bring shame on the family.

I only can look at what happend that day and draw my own conclusion that the R's were innoncent. I know for a fact that LE was badly embarresed that day and cops don't like to be embarresed. Especially on nation wide T.V.

My advice is to not buy into all the anti-R propaganda and all the hate generated because of their wealth and because PR and JBR enjoyed the pagents.

 

[LinasK]

JBR's personality was different from Burke's. She was gabby---she wouldn't have kept quiet about any inappropriate touching let alone assaults.

You don't know that. I was a "gabby" child too, I still didn't tell anyone that my uncle molested me for many years, and that happened at 13, not at 6 or before!

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>> She was gabby---she wouldn't have kept quiet about any inappropriate touching let alone assaults<<

You cannot state that with any certainty.
You didn't know JonBenet, so how could you possibly know what she would and wouldnt say about anything.

 

[aussiesheila]

At times I feel that we're going round and round the mulberry bush!

You ask why the Ramseys didn't delay calling the police for 24 hours and why they didn't use that time to stage a better kidnapping and dispose of the body far away from the house.

You say you've never seen a satisfactory answer to these questions.

OK - what were they supposed to tell Burke next day - about where JonBenet was?

They could have told Burke that JonBenet had been kidnapped and they were not going to Charlevoix but were staying home all day because they were waiting for the kidnapper to call, then waited until Burke was asleep the next night and John could have driven the body out to the mountains.

What were they going to tell Mike Archuletta re the cancelled flight to Michigan next day?

They could have told Mike Archuletta that JonBenet had been kidnapped and they were not going to Charlevoix so they were cancelling the flight.

Or how were they going to explain a missing but a rather large, heavy and perhaps slightly smelly suitcase (which left the house but never arrived at the destination)?

If you mean a suitcase containing her body, they would not need to explain it to anyone because they would not take it in one, they didn't have to put it in anything, no-one would see it because John would put it in the boot of his car and take it away in the dead of the following night.

What were they supposed to tell the older kids - who were booked on an early flight to Minneapolis where they were to be picked up by john Ramsey later that day and then all fly to Michigan together? OR how would they explain JonBenet's absence to the older kids?

They could have told the older kids that JonBenet had been kidnapped and they were not going to Charlevoix because they were waiting for the kidnapper to call and the older kids should go back home to Atlanta and wait for further news from them.

What were they going to do about the little problem with the snow falling outside? Tyre tracks leading from and to the garage were going to be a little bit of a giveaway - no?

I think it had stopped snowing by 6 am that day. If it did snow again and there were more tyre tracks they didn't want anyone to see then they would just wait a few more days until the sun came out and melted them or it snowed again and they got covered up THEN they call the police.

Basically, if the Ramseys were involved in JonBenet's death - they were going to be faced with a lot of cancellations and rearrangments for the following day in order to carry out the staging and body disposal. And remember - they could not leave the house that night because it was snowing. That, coupled with the fact that no external witness - or even Burke - would be able to say they'd seen JonBenet after the evening of 25th.

They could have said that no-one including Burke saw JonBenet after the evening of 25th because she had been kidnapped.

Let's turn the tables here. You say you've never seen a satisfactory explanation as to why they didn't delay calling the police, staging the kidnapping and disposing of the body for 24 hours. I challenge you to explain how they WOULD have achieved all of the above without raising the suspicions of Burke, Archuletta and the older Ramsey kids and friends.

I think I just have.

It may not have been a brilliant coverup plan but it would have been far more believable than what you are suggesting the Ramseys wanted the police to think had happened - either that an intending kidnapper changed his mind about kidnapping a child and sexually abused and killed her instead but still left behind a ransom note, or that someone came into the house sexually abused and killed a child and left a note demanding a ransom even though he had left the body in the house. There is no way any investigators were going to believe either of these scenarios.

 

[aussiesheila]

She was gabby---she wouldn't have kept quiet about any inappropriate touching let alone assaults.

Maikai,
I think you are underestimating the skills of an experienced pedophile.

 

[Moab]

Moab,

They had been answering police questions for something like 8 hours all that day. Well, Patsy to a lesser extent but John certainly had been.



And cut the hyperbole mate, they were both questioned by police at the Fernies all day the next day. Their lawyer prevented them from going to the police station that evening. For one thing neither was in a fit state to do so, Patsy being medicated with tranquillizers and John with alcohol. Not to mention the sleep deprived states they were both in.

Oh come on Aussie, you can’t really believe they had been answering questions all day about a murder when everyone thought at that point it was a kidnapping do you? That doesn’t even begin to make any sense. Arndt was asking a few general questions and they were answered, but there was no in-depth questioning of the parents before the body was found, and within minutes of it being found the Ramseys left the house NEVER to return!



The police went to the Fernies the next day, but John refused to talk to them or allow Patsy to talk to them, they didn’t even let them in. You need to go back and do some basic reading. The only person the police spoke to at the Fernies was Burke while Arndt was watching over JR and PR before the body was found, and the parents were ticked off when they found that out! Why do I feel we are at square one? You are talking about the Ramsey case aren't you?
:doh:

 

[Moab]

The idea of exhuming the body of a loved one is universally repugnant to most people. I don't think the Ramseys were any different from most people in this regard.

Anyway, it was far too late, by the time the stun gun theory came out, to be able to detect whether one had been used or not on JonBenet. By that time her skin would have been rotten and slimy and riddled with worms and falling away from her bones at the very least and all evidence of any stungun marks erased, and I'm sure John and his advisers would have been well aware of that.

Universally repugnant? Even if it would have proven them innocent? Even if it would have proven a stungun was used? It was nowhere near too late, read up on decomposition. If it had been too late, certainly the forensic people wouldn't have suggested it. The fact that they would not even entertain exhumation speaks volumes to me because on one had where the stungun could have been proven, it also would have been disproven, and they were way into spinning about it at the time.