The dead squirrel

[BeanE]

On page 6557 it is stated that Fatty acids, such as the ones detected, (palmitic, stearic,
myristic, oleic) indicate a fat decomposition product LIKE ADIPOCERE(grave wax) on the paper towels. NOTE he does not say it is ADIPOCERE he says a fat product like ADIPOCERE. Later in paragraph While the amounts of these acids can vary, the fatty acid ratios detected on the paper towels are quite consistent with those identified in human and PIG decomposition studies. Many have formed the opinion based on this report that there was ADIPOCERE on the napkin and it was from human decomp. I understand how someone could have that opinion. My opinion was formulated by realizing that the white trash bag may have come from the kitchen since there were items in the garbage that would normally have been found in a kitchen trash bag, and since it likely came from the kitchen, I am of the opinion that the fat decomposition product on the paper towels is not ADIPOCERE, but instead is pig fat (possibly bacon fat). I am of this opinion because in my own home I have wiped up bacon grease with napkins and threw the napkins in the trash. To further support my opinion all five components listed on page 6563 Ketone (propanone), Alde Hyde (decanal), Alde Hyde (butanal), Alcohol (hexanol), and Alcohol (ethanol), are detected in human remains, but all five are also found in pig remains.
Therefore, my final opinion based on the above information from the documents is that the substance found on the napkins is pig fat (bacon grease), not ADIPOCERE.

The way I read this report is that the findings are consistent with decomposing human remains or decomposing pig remains.

I know of no evidence of, or references to, anyone in the home from which the trash bag containing the paper towels came making bacon from, or doing anything else with, a decomposing pig.

I just thought I should mention that butyric acid is also found in vomit. Obviously there was no rancid butter in the trunk, however, a towel that was used to wipe up vomit, then placed in the dirty laundry with other dirty laundry (there was mention of possible laundry in the trunk, in GA’s deposition, and even if I am mistaken about GA’s depo, I will say from personal experience I have had dirty laundry in my trunk) may have transferred trace amounts of vomit to the carpet of the trunk, that could explain the butyric acid on the carpet.

I know of no evidence of, or references to, vomit or vomit tinged items in the trunk.

 

[LambChop]

Squirrel!! Crickets!!

For the life I me I never remember KC ever saying she hit a pig. Or that she, personally hit anything (God forbid she would want to give the impression she actually was responsible for the death of an animal). I believe she texted Amy that she had gotten rid of the smell and that her father had taken the car and hit something and it was plastered to the frame of her car. And then later told LA that two, not one, but two dead squirrels climbed up into her engine. No one ever said anything about a pig. She may have hit a cricket though.

 

[Tulessa]

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540599/detail.html

HTH!

 

[BeanE]

Am I in the dead squirrel thread?

 

[coco puff]

Thanks to you and everyone for responding to my "tongue in cheek" question re the difference between cooked bacon and raw.:banghead:

sorry, I should have known :blowkiss:

 

[LambChop]

Am I in the dead squirrel thread?

One would like to think so when reading the heading but some of us prefer pigs. I'm a dog person myself...but I do like the squirrels, too.

 

[wenwe4]

Here is a question someone else posed to him.'


WSH said, on November 10, 2009 at 3:31 pm

1.How would they (the lab) make that determination?

2. Are there different chemical components or reactions in human vs animal adipocere? What are they?

3.And is bacon grease composed of different elements all together from all adipocere?

It seems like some components of adipocere are also within the plant species, ie oleic acid. How do forensic scientists differentiate? Can they know for certain?

D.P. Lyle, MD said, on November 10, 2009 at 8:12 pm

Adipocere is easily recognized by the ME and the lab. It is a chemical reaction between animal fat and the acids and alkalis in the environment so it would appear the same in animals as it does in humans. This would include pigs, the source of bacon. As far as I know this reaction does not occur in plants since they do not have fat.

Interesting post. I make homemade soap and spent many years researching different fats and oils for new recipes. Soap is made from the chemical reaction (saponification) between fats and alkalis (lye). I have not made homemade wax, however I am aware most of the early soap makers were also candle makers. Whenever I changed my recipes, I had to reconfigure the amount of lye required for each oil, as each have a different saponification factor/level. Early lye was made from pouring water over ashes, so I have no doubt acids and alkalis are evident everywhere; just add fats. So a dead squirrel could potentially exude fats that react with the environment - but any fat could whether bacon or . . . . . . human (ugh - sorry so graphic)

 

[Tulessa]

Am I in the dead squirrel thread?

LOL! :woohoo::woohoo:

 

[Intermezzo]

Are these the apartments? Sutton Place in Winter Park? If so, they have garbage disposals.

http://www.forrent.com/apartment-co...t.com/apartment-community-profile/1005970.php

Yes BeanE

 

[The Eunice Burns]

I haven't seen this FBI report. I know I saw a report that said (possible Dr Vass), it was a like adipocere substance, but I have not seen any FBI report that said it was. Does anyone have a link for this? thanks

A) My comments were framed in response to Tulessa's informative post about her Q&A w/ a forensic expert about grave wax, adipocere, and the FBI's ability to differentiate between the two.

B) You want links provided to you, but can't seem to reciprocate. We're still waiting for the link you promised last night.

BJB is probably itching to hit me over the head.........Just call me "Doug".....as in Doug from "Up".

 

[Tulessa]

A) My comments were framed in response to Tulessa's informative post about her Q&A w/ a forensic expert about grave wax, adipocere, and the FBI's ability to differentiate between the two.

B) You want links provided to you, but can't seem to reciprocate. We're still waiting for the link you promised last night.

BJB is probably itching to hit me over the head.........Just call me "Doug".....as in Doug from "Up".

With that being said. I am off to work!

 

[logicalgirl]

One would like to think so when reading the heading but some of us prefer pigs. I'm a dog person myself...but I do like the squirrels, too.

Me? I prefer crickets, especially in this thread!

 

[wenwe4]

Me? I prefer crickets, especially in this thread!

hope I didn't do that . . . . . . (sorry)

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Because I am not sure whether a squirrel or lack of a squirrel will have any impact on the trial I would like to expound on my previous post.

If an expert was told the FBI determined grave wax to be found on a paper towel, And then was asked if this grave wax could be mistaken for bacon grease, I would expect that expert to say the FBI would have no problem distinguishing between the two. However, if the expert was told a fat decomposition product, like grave wax was found on a paper towel, and the question was could it be mistaken for bacon grease, he would say It’s possible as least visually, particularly if it has been there for awhile.
I would also like to say that I do not reject the experts conclusions. I have used the experts conclusions to come to my own opinion. Under cross examination, I believe the defense will ask that expert many question about the experts conclusions for clarification. One such question might be, Dr. Vass is the fat decomposition product ADIPOCERE? I would like the answer to that question.
I think it is reasonable for me to think it is possible for the trace evidence found on the paper towel to possibly be bacon fat, I do not think this is anecdotal evidence. It is simply my opinion, that it is kitchen trash, people cook bacon in the kitchen all the time, and it is circumstantially reasonable to think it is a possibility because the five components stated in the report are found in pig decomp. I also think some people occasionally do not cook the entire contents of a package of bacon at the same time.
I agree that most people have dealt with bacon grease and would not confuse it with human decomp, if they did I would certainly not accept an invitation to breakfast at their house. I believe we are talking trace evidence here, and not big fat globs of greasy fat, just tiny miniscule amounts. Does anyone really want to know what are in hot dogs? Coffin flies have been mentioned, but the white trash bag sat in a dumpster for 30hrs, and coffins flies have been known to reside in dumpsters. I think the white trash bag may be contaminated because of this 30 hour duration in the dumpster. I read where one cadaver dog hit on the right rear fender well of the Pontiac, but I wasn’t aware that 2 cadaver dogs hit on it. There was also a hair that had a possible death ring, but I was under the impression from the FBI report that the death ring was inconclusive due to not having other hairs to compare it to. So I still stand by my opinion that it is reasonable to suspect that the substance may be bacon grease.
I am not saying bacon grease smells like a dead body, but I am saying I do not think there is enough decomp evidence to cause the terrible smell either.

 

[BeanE]

When Zhu Zhu pets crawl up into your engine, they look exactly like dead squirrels. IMO.

 

[BeanE]

Does anyone really want to know what are in hot dogs? Coffin flies have been mentioned

Holy Mother of God

 

[Tulessa]

Holy Mother of God

Mary has nothing to do with this! :crazy:

 

[logicalgirl]

hope I didn't do that . . . . . . (sorry)

Definitely not!!

 

[Tulessa]

Adipocere is easily recognized by the ME and the lab

Or so I was told.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

The way I read this report is that the findings are consistent with decomposing human remains or decomposing pig remains.

I know of no evidence of, or references to, anyone in the home from which the trash bag containing the paper towels came making bacon from, or doing anything else with, a decomposing pig.



I know of no evidence of, or references to, vomit or vomit tinged items in the trunk.

I do not know of any evidence that states anything about vomit or bacon. I was just using those items to try to make sense of what I read in the docs, and reasonable possibilities as to how my conclusions may be possible. Much in the same way, when I first started following the case that I concluded that KC has a penchant for telling half truths etc. I don't always know these for a fact, and haven't found them in the docs but I reasonable conclude she may be a liar.
There are 5 components in the report that are consistant with pig (bacon), how can I reasonably think it may be bacon, because bacon is found in a kitchen, and the towel where the trace of evidence was, was found in a kitchen garbage bag. Isn't that circumstantial reasoning?