The Ligatures

[Blue Bottle 01]

You've kind of lost me. What makes you so sure the ligatures were used for posing?

The construction.

And you think it was for posing after death? Isn't that kind of behavior usually reserved for serial killers?

No.

Unless the body was posed for a specific person and the killer knew that person would see the body,

The killer, Patsy, posed the body for the killer, Patsy, to view.

why not discard the ligatures?

Those are the concerns of a normal person not a psychotic.

IMO

 

[txsvicki]

I agree with psychotic, but if the same person wrote the note he/she did use a scenario or lines from 3 different movies. It seems so bizarre that anyone could remember the movie lines if the death was accidental. Very horrific, imo.

 

[dodie20]

I agree with psychotic, but if the same person wrote the note he/she did use a scenario or lines from 3 different movies. It seems so bizarre that anyone could remember the movie lines if the death was accidental. Very horrific, imo.

Do you think this was an accident gone bad? because I'm not sure I think so anymore. moo

 

[dodie20]

The construction.



No.



The killer, Patsy, posed the body for the killer, Patsy, to view.



Those are the concerns of a normal person not a psychotic.

IMO

We're all entitled to opinions, and my opinion is that a one time killer, especially a parent killing a child, would not pose a dead body. Sorry, but I just don't think so. Psychotic or not. Posing a body would be some kind of fetish, and a one time killer couldn't feed his fetish. moo

 

[txsvicki]

Do you think this was an accident gone bad? because I'm not sure I think so anymore. moo

I don't know. Sometimes it seems accidental then when thinking about it more, seems intentional. It's easy to see how there are a variety of theories.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

and a one time killer couldn't feed his fetish. moo

Why not?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Posing a body would be some kind of fetish, moo

What do you mean? TIA

 

[Anyhoo]

We're all entitled to opinions, and my opinion is that a one time killer, especially a parent killing a child, would not pose a dead body. Sorry, but I just don't think so. Psychotic or not. Posing a body would be some kind of fetish, and a one time killer couldn't feed his fetish. moo

They would if they believed that doing so would be essential to either their continued freedom or the freedom of someone they loved.

 

[Tadpole12]

The construction.



No.



The killer, Patsy, posed the body for the killer, Patsy, to view.



Those are the concerns of a normal person not a psychotic.

IMO

Heyya Blue Bottle,

what kind of position? a Christ like position?

Her body folded over, slack rope wrapped around ankles?

15 inches of rope between the wrists, limits the possibilities?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

1. a Christ like position?

2. Her body folded over, slack rope wrapped around ankles?

3. 15 inches of rope between the wrists, limits the possibilities?

1. No.
2. No.
3. It was cord not rope. If the wrist cord was placed over the handle that was placed into a holder above the head the torso would be raised vertically and the arms would be raised up close to the position the artist's rendering depicts them.
IMO

 

[Tadpole12]

heyya Blue Bottle,

3. It was cord not rope.

Okay.

If the wrist cord was placed over the handle that was placed into a holder above the head the torso would be raised vertically and the arms would be raised up close to the position the artist's rendering depicts them.
IMO

thanks, trying to visualize.
Wondering how the cord holds the dead weight?
Will have to reread.

artist's rendering

 

[otg]

(snipped)

If the wrist cord was placed over the handle that was placed into a holder above the head the torso would be raised vertically and the arms would be raised up close to the position the artist's rendering depicts them.
IMO

The artist's rendering you are referring to was done from the AR description and "police sources" (according to the artist) before any photos were leaked. It has several things we know now are wrong -- including the position of her arms. There is a long discussion about this at FFJ starting [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10197"]here[/ame]. In particular, look at cynic's post [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=193872#post193872"]here[/ame] where he tried to adjust the right arm position closer to what is shown in the coroner's photos.

The boxer’s position (or pugilistic position, or equestrian position) of the arms is more a reaction to heat than a normal body response during rigor mortis. It is fairly uncommon unless a person has died in a house fire or their body exposed in some way to extreme heat. (Read about Joseph Goebbels body or search for images of it if you have the stomach for it.) For the muscles to dry to the point of contraction without extreme heat, it would take days -- not hours.

Extreme heat causes rapid drying of the muscle tissue and tendons, therefore shrinkage -- which results in contraction of the limbs. If you’ve ever cooked some kind of meat (which is of course muscle tissue) in the oven or in a pan and seen it curl one way or another, you’ve seen this very thing happen because of the difference in the rate of shrinkage.

I don’t think the position of JonBenet’s arms had anything to do with anything other than their having been in that position during the process of rigor mortis. If her body was temporarily posed with her arms suspended, unless they were held there long enough for rigor to occur, they would go back to a more natural position after she was taken down -- unless they were kept above her head by the cord between them (which would have nothing to do with her having been "posed").

Also, if you look at the picture of the knot left on her right wrist, it is obvious it was never used to support half her body weight. Had she been suspended by her wrists, the knot (a capsized square knot) would not be as loosely tied as it is.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The artist's rendition is correct. The body was in that position in rigor when brought upstairs. The coroner moved the arms at autopsy to photo the side of the face.

The arms did drop from the posing position lower when moved to the room but still remained up. IMO.

The loop around the wrists had only to support the weight of the arms, around 4 lbs each. The neck ligature held the weight of the torso and possibly the legs. IMO.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Actually the artist's rendition has the hands right to the position they would have been if suspended/posed as I think the body was. So they did not drop lower when moved after the pose to the small room. IMO.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

From JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas;

The two sisters settled in beside Patsy and read the Bible to her, all three waving their arms in the air and moaning. One said she had a vision in which JonBenet was an angel. A police officer later noticed that the Bible verses dealt with forgiveness. p.39.

In prayer Patsy's sisters, Pam and Polly, waved their arms over their heads and loudly called for heavenly help. p.59.

A preponderance of coincidence rules out coincidence.
IMO.

 

[dodie20]

They would if they believed that doing so would be essential to either their continued freedom or the freedom of someone they loved.

The op said that PR posed the body for her own viewing and then unposed her. How would this be essential to her freedom? I'll admit, I'm completely lost here. I'm not inclined to think the ligatures were for staging, and I do believe they served a purpose, but I just don't think posing was the purpose. all moo

 

[Mountain_Kat]

All staging, imo.

 

[Tadpole12]

Also, if you look at the picture of the knot left on her right wrist, it is obvious it was never used to support half her body weight. Had she been suspended by her wrists, the knot (a capsized square knot) would not be as loosely tied as it is.

heyya otg.

Yes, the wrist knot does not look like it was under tension.

3. If the wrist cord was placed over the handle that was placed into a holder above the head the torso would be raised vertically and the arms would be raised up close to the position the artist's rendering depicts them.
IMO

Heyya Blue Bottle,

So, under closer examination, the midpoint of the wrist cord might bear evidence, wear, stretch from this applied mechanism?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

heyya otg.

Yes, the wrist knot does not look like it was under tension.





Heyya Blue Bottle,

So, under closer examination, the midpoint of the wrist cord might bear evidence, wear, stretch from this applied mechanism?

It might have some kind of evidence in that respect. Good question.

 

[otg]

The artist's rendition is correct. The body was in that position in rigor when brought upstairs. The coroner moved the arms at autopsy to photo the side of the face.

I wasn't referring to the photo where she was obviously turned to her left in order to photograph the right side of her face. This photo shows where her right hand is in relation to her head. The artist's rendering shows it much higher and to the left of where it actually was. I'm not disputing that her arms were raised in an unnatural position while in rigor. I'm simply saying there are things that are slightly wrong with that sketch, so you can't use it to say that's what was found.

The arms did drop from the posing position lower when moved to the room but still remained up. IMO.

So I imagine you're saying she was posed for a short enough period of time for Patsy to simply see it and then let her down after fulfilling this fantasy? Why then would her arms be put back into the raised position afterwards while the rigor takes place?

The loop around the wrists had only to support the weight of the arms, around 4 lbs each. The neck ligature held the weight of the torso and possibly the legs. IMO.

So do you think Patsy was able unassisted to raise JonBenet's body by the cord high enough to somehow afix it to something stationary? Even partially suspended, from what you've described, her torso would be vertical accounting for most of her 45 pounds.