The Ligatures

[Blue Bottle 01]

Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body. The intensity of the color depends upon the amount of reduced hemoglobin in the blood. The discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, in which capillaries are compressed. As the vessel wall become permeable due to decomposition, blood leaks through them and stains the tissue. - wiki

IMO Patsy strangled JonBenet, posed her, hit her head and then placed her in the room well before liver mortis had the time to set in.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

She was placed on her back within a few moments of her death..

Minutes not moments, IMO backd up by science.

Science trumps opinions and theories every time.

Yes it does.

 

[otg]

I followed the link, but, I’m not sure what you wanted me to see.

Bettybaby is correct about the reason for the link (and I’m disappointed if you really didn’t get it). I was simply trying to point out that your question (“why would the killer bother to un-pose, un-restrain, un-suspend, un-etc her?”) made the assumption that the “killer” was the same person who “un-etc”ed her. The link was only to reference the question posed in the thread title.

Maybe it was all a little to convoluted to make the point effectively. Put more simply, the person responsible for causing JonBenet’s death is not necessarily the same person who might have ended the suspension, especially if you consider that the suspension was a result of an accident. Just like the RN, the person who penned it is not necessarily the same person who struck the head blow or tightened the ligature around her neck.

If she had been un-posed, etc. then this had to have happened very quickly after her death. And, it isn’t just that she would have to have been un-posed, etc, but that she would also have to have been subsequently moved and re-posed in the position and conditions in which she was later found. This remains true regardless of how many persons were involved.

Agreed.

The evidence, as we know it, strongly suggests that within minutes of death the victim was laid to rest as she was found. Theories of suspension and prior posing and such are speculative and they lack substantive evidentiary support. Speculation is fine, and I do a lot of it myself, but I’m really fond of the evidence and I prefer speculation that is informed by the evidence.

Me too.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

IMO the body was placed on it's left side, the head turned back to the right and the left arm moved so that the right angle scale could be placed on the right side of the head where it would be held there by gravity to get a clean photo of the circular abrasion on the cheek. This changed the original position of the body as found from arms raised above the head and head turned to the right to the "pugilist" position.

http://www.crimeshots.com/CrimeScene1.html

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...=jonbenet+ramsey+crime+scene+photos&FORM=IGRE

IMO the artist's rendition is correct.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The artist's rendition is a good image of how the body would look suspended vertically by placing the paint brush handle in a holder and the wrist ligature over the same holder, just rotate the photo 90 degrees counter clockwise.

It is no coincidence that the use of the ligatures as I describe produces the same body position as it was found in.

Logically, the arms would likely move when the body was taken down from the suspension as the body would still be limp. For whatever reason: such as dragging the body into the room by the ligatures or repositioning the arms, they ended up in the same position as in the suspension.

I think that pose was important to Patsy's psychotic dream fantasy as she and the willing sacrificial victim would celebrate the Victory! together for a few moments before going on to the kidnapping scene.

 

[DeDee]

I am not certain I fully understand the meaning behind the need for JonBenet to be suspended into a posed position for viewing.

I am of the belief that during some time before death, and maybe even while JBR was unconscious, that Patsy was reciting aloud, to her daughter, from the Bible that was found by LE upon arrival at the home. The Bible was open to the book of Psalms found on John's desk in his study.


OMO

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I am not certain I fully understand the meaning behind the need for JonBenet to be suspended into a posed position for viewing.

I am of the belief that during some time before death, and maybe even while JBR was unconscious, that Patsy was reciting aloud, to her daughter, from the Bible that was found by LE upon arrival at the home. The Bible was open to the book of Psalms found on John's desk in his study.


OMO

I think that pose was important to Patsy's psychotic dream fantasy as she and the willing sacrificial victim would celebrate the Victory! together for a few moments before going on to the kidnapping scene.

 

[Anti-K]

Bettybaby is correct about the reason for the link (and I’m disappointed if you really didn’t get it). I was simply trying to point out that your question (“why would the killer bother to un-pose, un-restrain, un-suspend, un-etc her?”) made the assumption that the “killer” was the same person who “un-etc”ed her. The link was only to reference the question posed in the thread title.

Maybe it was all a little to convoluted to make the point effectively. Put more simply, the person responsible for causing JonBenet’s death is not necessarily the same person who might have ended the suspension, especially if you consider that the suspension was a result of an accident. Just like the RN, the person who penned it is not necessarily the same person who struck the head blow or tightened the ligature around her neck.



Agreed.


Me too.

I realize that not everything had to have been done by a single person, but I don’t see any evidence that more than one person was involved. Just as there is no evidence that the victim was ever suspended.

But, let’s speculate: one person poses and/or suspends the body. A second person discovers the body. How much time has passed? Now, add the time it might take for the second person to take the body down, realize and accept that it is a body and not a critically wounded child. Now, the time to decide to wrap and hide the body, etc.... And, where is the first person during all of this, and why doesn’t the second person go after the first, etc... sorry, this just isn’t a believable possibility.
...

AK

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

. Just as there is no evidence that the victim was ever suspended.


...

AK

Other than the noose around her neck and the ligatures on her wrists.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

But, let’s speculate: one person poses and/or suspends the body. A second person discovers the body. How much time has passed? Now, add the time it might take for the second person to take the body down, realize and accept that it is a body and not a critically wounded child. Now, the time to decide to wrap and hide the body, etc.... And, where is the first person during all of this, and why doesn’t the second person go after the first, etc... sorry, this just isn’t a believable possibility.
...

AK

No that is all wrong, IMO.

The first person, Patsy, strangled JonBenet, posed her upright with arms raised, hit her on the head, took her down from the suspension, wiped her down, redressed her, wrapped her, placed the body in the small room, placed the duct tape on her mouth, all shortly after midnight.

The second person, John, found the body around 11 am and kept it to himself. He then fake found it at 1 pm and deluded himself that an intruder did it.

IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

Wasn't there mention of a bracelet? That doesn't seem indicative of what one would expect by being suspended??

JB was wearing a gold ID bracelet, which the coroner removed.

 

[DeeDee249]

Other than the noose around her neck and the ligatures on her wrists.

It wasn't a noose. It was a cord tied in a simple knot. It never functioned as a noose. The ligatures were only on one wrist and not tied tight at all. There are no ligature marks on her wrists. The coroner would have noted them, just as he did the ligature furrow on her neck. Livor mortis begins pretty quickly. There is simply nothing that indicates she was suspended in any way.
I also can't think of a single reason why she would have been, and if so, why she wouldn't have been left that way.

 

[DeeDee249]

No that is all wrong, IMO.

The first person, Patsy, strangled JonBenet, posed her upright with arms raised, hit her on the head, took her down from the suspension, wiped her down, redressed her, wrapped her, placed the body in the small room, placed the duct tape on her mouth, all shortly after midnight.

The second person, John, found the body around 11 am and kept it to himself. He then fake found it at 1 pm and deluded himself that an intruder did it.

IMO.

Why would Patsy pose her? Every forensic specialist who studied the case, including those who SAW the body, as well as ALL the autopsy photos, determined that the head bash came first. I can think of NO reason why Patsy would have done what you state. And why would JR "keep it to himself"? You find your dead, strangled little girl in the basement and say NOTHING? The entire scenario offends reason.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No that is all wrong, IMO.



****Edited what I don't agree with****



The second person, John, found the body around 11 am and kept it to himself. He then fake found it at 1 pm and deluded himself that an intruder did it.



IMO.

Agree...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[otg]

I realize that not everything had to have been done by a single person, but I don’t see any evidence that more than one person was involved.

And what evidence would you expect to find of more than one person? Evidence maybe of both an organized perpetrator -- and a disorganized perpetrator? Fibers from more than one source? DNA from more than one person?

Just as there is no evidence that the victim was ever suspended.

If you (or anyone) fails to see it after it's been pointed out, I can't help you, and I won't try to convince you.

But, let’s speculate: one person poses and/or suspends the body. A second person discovers the body. How much time has passed?

As much time as it takes for a parent to hear their child's scream and run down three flights of stairs. How long would it take you if you heard your child scream in the middle of the night?

Now, add the time it might take for the second person to take the body down, realize and accept that it is a body and not a critically wounded child. Now, the time to decide to wrap and hide the body, etc....

Again, you can do the estimate. All of the above could be in less time than it takes for livor mortis to set in.

And, where is the first person during all of this,

Staying out of the way. "We're not speaking to you."

and why doesn’t the second person go after the first, etc...

Because it was all done to protect the first.

sorry, this just isn’t a believable possibility.

...to you.

 

[Venom]

otg, I'm curious on your thoughts, do you think she was suspended?

 

[Anti-K]

No that is all wrong, IMO.

The first person, Patsy, strangled JonBenet, posed her upright with arms raised, hit her on the head, took her down from the suspension, wiped her down, redressed her, wrapped her, placed the body in the small room, placed the duct tape on her mouth, all shortly after midnight.

The second person, John, found the body around 11 am and kept it to himself. He then fake found it at 1 pm and deluded himself that an intruder did it.

IMO.

Yes, I understand your theory; but I was addressing the theory of one person doing the posing and a second person doing the un-posing. At least your theory, although fanciful, has some coherence and I think that if things happened as you propose, than the body could have been moved and re-posed as it was found before livor mortis could develop sufficiently to evidence the move.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

And what evidence would you expect to find of more than one person? Evidence maybe of both an organized perpetrator -- and a disorganized perpetrator? Fibers from more than one source? DNA from more than one person?


If you (or anyone) fails to see it after it's been pointed out, I can't help you, and I won't try to convince you.


As much time as it takes for a parent to hear their child's scream and run down three flights of stairs. How long would it take you if you heard your child scream in the middle of the night?


Again, you can do the estimate. All of the above could be in less time than it takes for livor mortis to set in.


Staying out of the way. "We're not speaking to you."


Because it was all done to protect the first.


...to you.

Well, I don’t have any expectations as to what kind of evidence I would expect to find if a second person were involved. I’m just going by the evidence that we know of.

In the RDI scenario, none of the unidentified DNA is connected to the crime, so I‘m a little suspicious of your mentioning it as evidence that more than one person was involved. But, of course, you’re right, DNA from more than one person could be evidence of more than one person being involved. It isn’t necessarily evidence of that, but it could be.

As far as I know the only people who see evidence of suspension are forum posters. I don’t recall Meyer, or Thomas, or Kolar, or Schiller, or Smit, or Douglas, or Lee, or anyone associated with the investigation saying that the evidence suggested such a thing.

I’ve read the AR, I’ve seen the photographs, done my own research, performed my own experiments and I’m always willing to do more so show me what you got. I don’t want you to try to convince me of anything. You probably can’t do that. Only the evidence can do that. So, show me the evidence – leave your interpretation out of it, and just show me the evidence.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Parent hears child’s scream and runs downstairs and discovers child hanging by the neck.
Since minutes necessarily would have passed between the scream and death by asphyxiation, the child should have still been alive by the time the parent arrived.

Regardless, the parent’s first reaction should have been to loosen the cord around the neck, to try save the child’s live. To call for help (more screaming).

At some point, the parent realizes that there is no hope and the child is dead. Somehow, no help has arrived and the parent is now alone with the dead body of their child. Surely, the parent is in shock. The decision to move and hide the body could not have come quickly.
...

AK