The Ligatures

[otg]

otg, I'm curious on your thoughts, do you think she was suspended?

I do. I don't think it was "posing" as the OP of this thread, but rather that she was unintentionally strangled by partial suspension.

 

[gramcracker]

the diagrams in that link reminded me of something I saw on TV recently, a guy who hung himself in jail using a towel. he was basically sitting on the floor and the towel was tied to a rack/shelf above him, it looked about maybe waist level if he was standing. I'm not sure how much of/if his butt was raised off the floor, it was hard to tell. but he surely was basically sitting on the floor and he surely was dead

 

[otg]

Well, I don’t have any expectations as to what kind of evidence I would expect to find if a second person were involved. I’m just going by the evidence that we know of.

In the RDI scenario, none of the unidentified DNA is connected to the crime, so I‘m a little suspicious of your mentioning it as evidence that more than one person was involved. But, of course, you’re right, DNA from more than one person could be evidence of more than one person being involved. It isn’t necessarily evidence of that, but it could be.

But it was you who said, "I realize that not everything had to have been done by a single person, but I don’t see any evidence that more than one person was involved." If you see no evidence of more than one person, and can't cite anything that is evidence of only one, then you really don't have any idea how many it might have been.

As far as I know the only people who see evidence of suspension are forum posters. I don’t recall Meyer, or Thomas, or Kolar, or Schiller, or Smit, or Douglas, or Lee, or anyone associated with the investigation saying that the evidence suggested such a thing.

Okay, lets look for some kind of consensus among the people you mention...

Meyer: Only reported findings of the autopsy. Never publicly expressed any opinion on circumstances, and fought in court to keep the AR from ever being released to the public.
Thomas: Thought Patsy slammed her head in the bathroom, then strangled her.
Kolar: Didn't really say in his book, but hints at sibling involvement. His inclusion of Dr. Rorke-Adams opinion of time between two insults suggests what? :dunno: Mercy killing after the head blow?
Schiller: Never expressed an opinion. Only reported different theories of others.
Smit: Thought the ligature was a "sophisticated garotte with complicated knots" that was used by a lone burglar, rapist, kidnapper, sexual-sadist, murderer who spent hours in the house writing a ransom novel, then zapping her with a stun-gun before raping and strangling her, and then silently disappearing into the night while the rest of the family slept.
Douglas: Churned out a boiler-plate "profile" of every other serial killer he had ever dealt with, but never said how she was killed -- just that he knew John and Patsy Ramsey didn't do it. (But should we expect any more than this from him, since the only thing he had to go on was what the Ramsey lawyers told him and his conversation with John?)
Lee: (I'm not really sure what he thought. All I remember is that he thought "rice already cooked", "table not have enough legs", and that it was the result of a "terrible domestic accident".)

Who else? How about:

Wecht: Thought her death was the result of a "sex-game gone awry" (erotic asphyxiation). He also forever tainted the public's view of the evidence by stating there was only 1 to 2 tablespoons of blood from the head blow (In case you didn't know, there was much more than that), giving him the idea that the head blow came after the accidental strangulation.
Spitz: Claimed he had special inside knowledge that the missing piece of skull from the depressed fracture was a single piece of rectangular bone that was on a "hinge" in her skull. (Really -- I'm not making that up.)

I’ve read the AR, I’ve seen the photographs, done my own research, performed my own experiments and I’m always willing to do more so show me what you got. I don’t want you to try to convince me of anything. You probably can’t do that. Only the evidence can do that. So, show me the evidence – leave your interpretation out of it, and just show me the evidence.

We've both seen the same things. We see it differently. But I agree with your bbm.

Parent hears child’s scream and runs downstairs and discovers child hanging by the neck.
Since minutes necessarily would have passed between the scream and death by asphyxiation, the child should have still been alive by the time the parent arrived.

It's hard to put an exact time on when death occurred. If it was only the head blow, she could have "lived" for hours. If it was only the strangulation, it would be within 5 minutes. The combination of the two insults makes it more difficult to estimate, but I imagine it would be less than by the strangulation alone. But as I've said before, I have absolutely no medical training or experience (unless I can count my Boy Scout merit badge in first aid) -- only what I've read. My opinion is that she was already dead by the time she was found by the parents.

Regardless, the parent’s first reaction should have been to loosen the cord around the neck, to try save the child’s live.

...or cut her down, fraying the ends of the cord. John said he couldn't untie the "tight" knots on her wrists. Do you think he would be able to untie or loosen the cord around her neck while her weight was pulling on it? Wouldn't it be easier to cut the cord using a pocket knife -- with a broken ornament?

To call for help (more screaming).

??

At some point, the parent realizes that there is no hope and the child is dead. Somehow, no help has arrived and the parent is now alone with the dead body of their child. Surely, the parent is in shock. The decision to move and hide the body could not have come quickly.

Parents. And I agree with all of the above (although I'm not sure where they would expect this help to arrive from you mention).

 

[otg]

the diagrams in that link reminded me of something I saw on TV recently, a guy who hung himself in jail using a towel. he was basically sitting on the floor and the towel was tied to a rack/shelf above him, it looked about maybe waist level if he was standing. I'm not sure how much of/if his butt was raised off the floor, it was hard to tell. but he surely was basically sitting on the floor and he surely was dead

I saw (maybe) that same scene in a movie a couple of years ago (I seem to remember him tying it to one of the cell bars behind his back), but I don't know what the movie was. Do you remember the name of the movie? Whoever wrote that scene must have known that this is a common method of suicide. What happens in that situation is that the blood supply to the brain is slowed down until the person quietly passes out. Death occurs in minutes without pain or struggle (as everyone would imagine).

 

[questfortrue]

It wasn't a noose. It was a cord tied in a simple knot. It never functioned as a noose. The ligatures were only on one wrist and not tied tight at all. There are no ligature marks on her wrists. The coroner would have noted them, just as he did the ligature furrow on her neck. Livor mortis begins pretty quickly. There is simply nothing that indicates she was suspended in any way.
I also can't think of a single reason why she would have been, and if so, why she wouldn't have been left that way.

OTG, DeeDee249, AK – who’ve studied this more than I, I’m trying to understand the manner that this neck ligature functioned.

Not meaning to make this discussion too convoluted, just wanting to understand the physics of this. If it were not a “slip knot”, (like a noose or lasso) just two knots together which tied the neck ligature, then would someone pulling on either the loose end of the ligature or the garrote itself, even cause a strangulation? Mechanical pressure from someone pulling on this, or from the weight of her body if she collapsed upon the neck ligature? (My understanding of strangulation is a tightening, constricting of a device.) Is it functioning more like a tourniquet, simply cutting off blood flow? Would it be only the swelling of her neck while dying which created such a tight ligature “embedded” in her neck? Please jump in with thoughts here. TIA

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

1. It wasn't a noose.
2. The ligatures were only on one wrist and not tied tight at all.
3. There are no ligature marks on her wrists.
4. Livor mortis begins pretty quickly.
5. There is simply nothing that indicates she was suspended in any way.
6. I also can't think of a single reason why she would have been, and if so, why she wouldn't have been left that way
7. Why would Patsy pose her?
8. Every forensic specialist who studied the case, including those who SAW the body, as well as ALL the autopsy photos, determined that the head bash came first.
9. I can think of NO reason why Patsy would have done what you state.
10. And why would JR "keep it to himself"? You find your dead, strangled little girl in the basement and say NOTHING?
11. The entire scenario offends reason.


1. Blond hair was snared in the knot and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied MORE LIKE A NOOSE than a twisting garrote. - Steve Thomas, Inside the Ramsey Investigation
2. John loosened one wrist loop and the crime scene photos show that they were indeed tight enough to support the weight of the arms.
3. The crime scene photos show a red mark on the right wrist consistent with a ligature.
4. "Pretty quickly" is not a scientific term. There was more than enough time to do what I suggest was done before pooling of the blood was complete.
5. The neck ligature and wrist ligature suggest suspension.
6. The point is the psychotic had her reason. In order to understand murder one must risk the attempt to think like a psychotic/sociopath. This is a well known theme in crime literature, I suggest you read Thomas Harris' Red Dragon. The pose was for Patsy and Patsy alone, she then had other plans for the body: a second pose as kidnapping victim.
7. Patsy used the object to participate in her fantasy, the pose had meaning known only to her. My guess is the pose had something to do with Victory! as if the sacrificial object was voluntarily participating.
8. That is so wrong I wonder if you know the case.
9. You should read up on murder.
10. Self delusion favoring the intruder idea as opposed to having to recognize living with a mentally disturbed person and possibly contributing to her condition and her actions.
11. That's the only correct statement in your posts. The actions of psychotic murderers are quite offensive.

All of this IMO.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

OTG, DeeDee249, AK – who’ve studied this more than I, I’m trying to understand the manner that this neck ligature functioned.

Not meaning to make this discussion too convoluted, just wanting to understand the physics of this. If it were not a “slip knot”, (like a noose or lasso) just two knots together which tied the neck ligature, then would someone pulling on either the loose end of the ligature or the garrote itself, even cause a strangulation? Mechanical pressure from someone pulling on this, or from the weight of her body if she collapsed upon the neck ligature? (My understanding of strangulation is a tightening, constricting of a device.) Is it functioning more like a tourniquet, simply cutting off blood flow? Would it be only the swelling of her neck while dying which created such a tight ligature “embedded” in her neck? Please jump in with thoughts here. TIA

It functions as a suspension device, having to be tight enough to hold the weight of the torso and arms at least, if not the whole body. This also explains the large knot on the brush handle.

A small knot there and just slight tightening pressure on the neck would suffice as a fake garrote. The over-done aspects of the knot and the tightening of the ligature were not necessary to fool investigators but they were fucntional in a suspension.

Also, the bruising below the ligatrure on the front of the neck suggests an initial strangulation, meaning: that having been done, the final position of the ligature had another purpose.

 

[gramcracker]

I saw (maybe) that same scene in a movie a couple of years ago (I seem to remember him tying it to one of the cell bars behind his back), but I don't know what the movie was. Do you remember the name of the movie? Whoever wrote that scene must have known that this is a common method of suicide. What happens in that situation is that the blood supply to the brain is slowed down until the person quietly passes out. Death occurs in minutes without pain or struggle (as everyone would imagine).

IIRC it was an older episode of Law & Order/SVU

 

[otg]

:wave: Greetings, qft. I’ll break up your post so I can answer each question you asked.

OTG, DeeDee249, AK – who’ve studied this more than I, I’m trying to understand the manner that this neck ligature functioned.

You’ve asked three posters their opinion. The only thing I can tell you with any certainty is that you will get three different opinions -- more, if others feel free to join in on the discussion.

Not meaning to make this discussion too convoluted, just wanting to understand the physics of this.

Understanding the ligature is vital to understanding what happened. On that, I think all of us will agree.

If it were not a “slip knot”, (like a noose or lasso) just two knots together which tied the neck ligature, then would someone pulling on either the loose end of the ligature or the garrote itself, even cause a strangulation?

Slip knot is a generic term for a type of knot (AKA, running knot), so named because of its designed function -- to slip along what it is tied to: itself (the standing part of a rope), another rope, or another object (a hitch, or a post). How much it slips will depend on the exact knot and how tightly it is tied. Some knots are even designed to slip only in one direction, or only if the right end is pulled. Some knots are tied without the intent of being a used as a slip knot; but because of their design, they collapse (AKA, capsize, or spill) forming another knot which can act as a slip knot. The granny knot is notorious for this. A collapsed granny knot becomes a clove hitch. When a square knot collapses, it becomes a girth hitch. If you look at the photo of JonBenet’s right wrist showing the ligature, you can see it as a girth hitch. I attached a photo at the bottom of this post with red and blue lines added showing where the cord runs (blue is the standing part of the cord which went around her wrist).

At one time, I thought the cord was originally tied as one piece between the wrists and the neck with the cord thrown over something overhead (one of the overhead pipes in the basement?). I thought that when she was struck over the head and collapsed, her weight had caused each of the knots to capsize becoming slip knots. But I now think the wrist knots were tied after the fact because they don’t appear to be tight enough to have been pulled as tight as the neck ligature. I think the wrists were tied with the cut section of cord to make it appear more like she had been retrained.

So the only point in going into so much detail here about the wrist knot (when you asked about the neck knot) is to show what I think may have happened with the knot tied at her neck. It isn’t any kind of knot that I’m familiar with, and it may well have been tied as something else originally which capsized when it was pulled. There just isn’t enough detail in the photos where I can say exactly what it is other than some type of “slip knot”. But regardless of what we call it, it acted in a way that allowed the cord to tighten around her neck when it was pulled -- either by someone pulling on it, or by her weight pulling it away from what it was attached to. Also, I should point out that it would tighten more effectively if it was the standing portion of the cord that was being pulled (which is the portion to which the paintbrush was attached).

That’s the long answer. The short answer is yes, the cord attached to her neck as it was found is capable of strangling her.

Mechanical pressure from someone pulling on this, or from the weight of her body if she collapsed upon the neck ligature?

Yes. Either is possible. The question is which.

(My understanding of strangulation is a tightening, constricting of a device.)

“Strangulation” is the physiological means by which a person might die. Strangulation can be caused by the tightening of a ligature, pressure from a person’s hands, pressure from a solid object, or a foreign object in their throat. From Wikipedia:

Strangling can be divided into three general types according to the mechanism used:

• Hanging—Suspension from a cord wound around the neck
• Ligature strangulation—Strangulation without suspension using some form of cord-like object called a garrote
• Manual strangulation—Strangulation using the fingers or other extremity

(Although Wikipedia doesn’t list it, we’ve all heard of someone strangling on a piece of food or other foreign object caught in their throat; and we should know that one of the major causes of infant death is accidental strangulation in a crib, a baby bed, or on some other similar solid object where their neck might be caught.)

The mechanism of strangulation is obstruction (or restriction) of something necessary for life: blood, oxygen, or a normal baroreceptor response (vagal nerve reflex).

Is it functioning more like a tourniquet, simply cutting off blood flow?

The mechanism of death for JonBenet is disputed because of what is not explained in the AR. Most likely (IMO) she did not lose the ability to breathe through her trachea because of what Meyer did NOT note as unusual (no damage to throat organs necessary to breathe). The vagal nerve response is something Dr. Wecht speculated about, but there is nothing in the AR to confirm or refute that possibility. To me, the thing that would tell us the most about the exact mechanics of what happened is whether the arteries, the veins, or both were shut off when the ligature was tightened around her neck. Unfortunately there just isn’t enough information in the AR to answer that question. One thing I had asked about some months back is others’ opinions of the color of her face. Without anything more than a couple of leaked photographs (the accuracy of which we don’t know), that can’t really be decided by us, but it would tell us a great deal had Meyer made note of it.

As to the idea of it being used as some sort of tourniquet type device... My opinion of that is that it is preposterous. I’ve written about that several times before, so I won’t go into it now unless someone asks me to.

Would it be only the swelling of her neck while dying which created such a tight ligature “embedded” in her neck?

No, it is not only the swelling of her neck which created the embedded appearance of the ligature. And I should also point out that not all of her neck was swollen -- only the tissue immediately around the ligature. (I’m sure AK will have something to add to this, but I’m simply stating my opinion here from what I’ve read.) The ligature was tight enough to press down into her neck when it was first tightened, but the tissue immediately surrounding it would also have been pressed down to some extent. The “swelling” (and edema is actually a more correct term because it describes the physiological response of the tissue) occurs over time when the fluids in the depressed tissue is displaced into surrounding tissue. This causes the tissue adjacent to the ligature to “close in” around the ligature and become fixed so that when the ligature is removed, a discolored deep furrow remains in the neck.

Please jump in with thoughts here. TIA

If I didn’t explain my thoughts on this well enough, let me know where and I’ll try to bloviate :giggle: even more.

:seeya:

 

[DeeDee249]

1. It wasn't a noose.
2. The ligatures were only on one wrist and not tied tight at all.
3. There are no ligature marks on her wrists.
4. Livor mortis begins pretty quickly.
5. There is simply nothing that indicates she was suspended in any way.
6. I also can't think of a single reason why she would have been, and if so, why she wouldn't have been left that way
7. Why would Patsy pose her?
8. Every forensic specialist who studied the case, including those who SAW the body, as well as ALL the autopsy photos, determined that the head bash came first.
9. I can think of NO reason why Patsy would have done what you state.
10. And why would JR "keep it to himself"? You find your dead, strangled little girl in the basement and say NOTHING?
11. The entire scenario offends reason.


1. Blond hair was snared in the knot and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied MORE LIKE A NOOSE than a twisting garrote. - Steve Thomas, Inside the Ramsey Investigation
2. John loosened one wrist loop and the crime scene photos show that they were indeed tight enough to support the weight of the arms.
3. The crime scene photos show a red mark on the right wrist consistent with a ligature.
4. "Pretty quickly" is not a scientific term. There was more than enough time to do what I suggest was done before pooling of the blood was complete.
5. The neck ligature and wrist ligature suggest suspension.
6. The point is the psychotic had her reason. In order to understand murder one must risk the attempt to think like a psychotic/sociopath. This is a well known theme in crime literature, I suggest you read Thomas Harris' Red Dragon. The pose was for Patsy and Patsy alone, she then had other plans for the body: a second pose as kidnapping victim.
7. Patsy used the object to participate in her fantasy, the pose had meaning known only to her. My guess is the pose had something to do with Victory! as if the sacrificial object was voluntarily participating.
8. That is so wrong I wonder if you know the case.
9. You should read up on murder.
10. Self delusion favoring the intruder idea as opposed to having to recognize living with a mentally disturbed person and possibly contributing to her condition and her actions.
11. That's the only correct statement in your posts. The actions of psychotic murderers are quite offensive.

All of this IMO.

1. The cord may have functioned more like a noose but it was not a noose.
2.I have seen NO crime photos that show the ligatures around her wrists tightly.
3. The red mark on her wrist looks nothing like a furrow. It certainly does not suggest anything was tied tightly against her wrist. On her back are similar marks that could have been made by the soft folds of her shirt pressing against her back as livor formed. The red mark on her wrist could very well have been made by her bracelet- livor would have made a reddish mark where the bracelet was.
4. There may have been time but I cannot fathom why it would have been done. It added nothing to the staged crime scene, especially if she was take down soon after. Why suspend her for 20 minutes?
5.The ligature was circumferential which suggest NO suspension. The coroner never stated anywhere the he believed she had been suspended at all.
6. I have both read and seen "Red Dragon". I just do not see Patsy as the sociopath that Dee was in that book/movie. He had repeated victims. I think Patsy & JR did what they did that night out of a manic desperation to save their son and family.
7. This is obviously your theory. Fine. But there is nothing I can see that suggests it is fact.
8.My statement is correct. Only Wecht disagreed. Your comment is insulting. I know the case very well. Your attack, which only demeans the attacker, adds nothing to your theories.
9. Having had a family member murdered by an intruder, and having to be the one to identify the body in the morgue (not easy to do when someone is shot in the head from about 6 inches away- messy and not a lot of face left to identify) I think I am probably more familiar with murder than you are and certainly more familiar than anyone who just reads about it.
10. I am sure Patsy had mental issues which her family likely attributed to her cancer battles. JR probably just didn't want to deal with it. And I certainly feel that her chemotherapy and subsequent drug therapies (Klonopin was found in the home) can cause psychosis in certain people. Even over-the-counter sleep aids can do that.
11. Yep.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

1. The cord may have functioned more like a noose but it was not a noose.
2.I have seen NO crime photos that show the ligatures around her wrists tightly.
3. The red mark on her wrist looks nothing like a furrow. It certainly does not suggest anything was tied tightly against her wrist. On her back are similar marks that could have been made by the soft folds of her shirt pressing against her back as livor formed. The red mark on her wrist could very well have been made by her bracelet- livor would have made a reddish mark where the bracelet was.
4. There may have been time but I cannot fathom why it would have been done. It added nothing to the staged crime scene, especially if she was take down soon after. Why suspend her for 20 minutes?
5.The ligature was circumferential which suggest NO suspension. The coroner never stated anywhere the he believed she had been suspended at all.
6. I have both read and seen "Red Dragon". I just do not see Patsy as the sociopath that Dee was in that book/movie. He had repeated victims. I think Patsy & JR did what they did that night out of a manic desperation to save their son and family.
7. This is obviously your theory. Fine. But there is nothing I can see that suggests it is fact.
8.My statement is correct. Only Wecht disagreed. Your comment is insulting. I know the case very well. Your attack, which only demeans the attacker, adds nothing to your theories.
9. Having had a family member murdered by an intruder, and having to be the one to identify the body in the morgue (not easy to do when someone is shot in the head from about 6 inches away- messy and not a lot of face left to identify) I think I am probably more familiar with murder than you are and certainly more familiar than anyone who just reads about it.
10. I am sure Patsy had mental issues which her family likely attributed to her cancer battles. JR probably just didn't want to deal with it. And I certainly feel that her chemotherapy and subsequent drug therapies (Klonopin was found in the home) can cause psychosis in certain people. Even over-the-counter sleep aids can do that.
11. Yep.

1. Blond hair was snared in the knot and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied MORE LIKE A NOOSE than a twisting garrote. - Steve Thomas, Inside the Ramsey Investigation
2. John loosened one wrist loop and the crime scene photos show that they were indeed tight enough to support the weight of the arms.
3. The crime scene photos show a red mark on the right wrist consistent with a ligature.
4. "Pretty quickly" is not a scientific term. There was more than enough time to do what I suggest was done before pooling of the blood was complete.
5. The neck ligature and wrist ligature suggest suspension.
6. The point is the psychotic had her reason. In order to understand murder one must risk the attempt to think like a psychotic/sociopath. This is a well known theme in crime literature, I suggest you read Thomas Harris' Red Dragon. The pose was for Patsy and Patsy alone, she then had other plans for the body: a second pose as kidnapping victim.
7. Patsy used the object to participate in her fantasy, the pose had meaning known only to her. My guess is the pose had something to do with Victory! as if the sacrificial object was voluntarily participating.
8. That is so wrong I wonder if you know the case.
9. You should read up on murder.
10. Self delusion favoring the intruder idea as opposed to having to recognize living with a mentally disturbed person and possibly contributing to her condition and her actions.
11. That's the only correct statement in your posts. The actions of psychotic murderers are quite offensive.

 

[Venom]

:wave: Greetings, qft. I’ll break up your post so I can answer each question you asked.


You’ve asked three posters their opinion. The only thing I can tell you with any certainty is that you will get three different opinions -- more, if others feel free to join in on the discussion.


Understanding the ligature is vital to understanding what happened. On that, I think all of us will agree.


Slip knot is a generic term for a type of knot (AKA, running knot), so named because of its designed function -- to slip along what it is tied to: itself (the standing part of a rope), another rope, or another object (a hitch, or a post). How much it slips will depend on the exact knot and how tightly it is tied. Some knots are even designed to slip only in one direction, or only if the right end is pulled. Some knots are tied without the intent of being a used as a slip knot; but because of their design, they collapse (AKA, capsize, or spill) forming another knot which can act as a slip knot. The granny knot is notorious for this. A collapsed granny knot becomes a clove hitch. When a square knot collapses, it becomes a girth hitch. If you look at the photo of JonBenet’s right wrist showing the ligature, you can see it as a girth hitch. I attached a photo at the bottom of this post with red and blue lines added showing where the cord runs (blue is the standing part of the cord which went around her wrist).

At one time, I thought the cord was originally tied as one piece between the wrists and the neck with the cord thrown over something overhead (one of the overhead pipes in the basement?). I thought that when she was struck over the head and collapsed, her weight had caused each of the knots to capsize becoming slip knots. But I now think the wrist knots were tied after the fact because they don’t appear to be tight enough to have been pulled as tight as the neck ligature. I think the wrists were tied with the cut section of cord to make it appear more like she had been retrained.

So the only point in going into so much detail here about the wrist knot (when you asked about the neck knot) is to show what I think may have happened with the knot tied at her neck. It isn’t any kind of knot that I’m familiar with, and it may well have been tied as something else originally which capsized when it was pulled. There just isn’t enough detail in the photos where I can say exactly what it is other than some type of “slip knot”. But regardless of what we call it, it acted in a way that allowed the cord to tighten around her neck when it was pulled -- either by someone pulling on it, or by her weight pulling it away from what it was attached to. Also, I should point out that it would tighten more effectively if it was the standing portion of the cord that was being pulled (which is the portion to which the paintbrush was attached).

That’s the long answer. The short answer is yes, the cord attached to her neck as it was found is capable of strangling her.



Yes. Either is possible. The question is which.


“Strangulation” is the physiological means by which a person might die. Strangulation can be caused by the tightening of a ligature, pressure from a person’s hands, pressure from a solid object, or a foreign object in their throat. From Wikipedia:

Strangling can be divided into three general types according to the mechanism used:

• Hanging—Suspension from a cord wound around the neck
• Ligature strangulation—Strangulation without suspension using some form of cord-like object called a garrote
• Manual strangulation—Strangulation using the fingers or other extremity

(Although Wikipedia doesn’t list it, we’ve all heard of someone strangling on a piece of food or other foreign object caught in their throat; and we should know that one of the major causes of infant death is accidental strangulation in a crib, a baby bed, or on some other similar solid object where their neck might be caught.)

The mechanism of strangulation is obstruction (or restriction) of something necessary for life: blood, oxygen, or a normal baroreceptor response (vagal nerve reflex).


The mechanism of death for JonBenet is disputed because of what is not explained in the AR. Most likely (IMO) she did not lose the ability to breathe through her trachea because of what Meyer did NOT note as unusual (no damage to throat organs necessary to breathe). The vagal nerve response is something Dr. Wecht speculated about, but there is nothing in the AR to confirm or refute that possibility. To me, the thing that would tell us the most about the exact mechanics of what happened is whether the arteries, the veins, or both were shut off when the ligature was tightened around her neck. Unfortunately there just isn’t enough information in the AR to answer that question. One thing I had asked about some months back is others’ opinions of the color of her face. Without anything more than a couple of leaked photographs (the accuracy of which we don’t know), that can’t really be decided by us, but it would tell us a great deal had Meyer made note of it.

As to the idea of it being used as some sort of tourniquet type device... My opinion of that is that it is preposterous. I’ve written about that several times before, so I won’t go into it now unless someone asks me to.


No, it is not only the swelling of her neck which created the embedded appearance of the ligature. And I should also point out that not all of her neck was swollen -- only the tissue immediately around the ligature. (I’m sure AK will have something to add to this, but I’m simply stating my opinion here from what I’ve read.) The ligature was tight enough to press down into her neck when it was first tightened, but the tissue immediately surrounding it would also have been pressed down to some extent. The “swelling” (and edema is actually a more correct term because it describes the physiological response of the tissue) occurs over time when the fluids in the depressed tissue is displaced into surrounding tissue. This causes the tissue adjacent to the ligature to “close in” around the ligature and become fixed so that when the ligature is removed, a discolored deep furrow remains in the neck.


If I didn’t explain my thoughts on this well enough, let me know where and I’ll try to bloviate :giggle: even more.

:seeya:

Thanks otg for another great post.

More things to think about.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

1. The cord may have functioned more like a noose but it was not a noose.
2.I have seen NO crime photos that show the ligatures around her wrists tightly.
3. The red mark on her wrist looks nothing like a furrow. It certainly does not suggest anything was tied tightly against her wrist. On her back are similar marks that could have been made by the soft folds of her shirt pressing against her back as livor formed. The red mark on her wrist could very well have been made by her bracelet- livor would have made a reddish mark where the bracelet was.
4. There may have been time but I cannot fathom why it would have been done. It added nothing to the staged crime scene, especially if she was take down soon after. Why suspend her for 20 minutes?
5.The ligature was circumferential which suggest NO suspension. The coroner never stated anywhere the he believed she had been suspended at all.
6. I have both read and seen "Red Dragon". I just do not see Patsy as the sociopath that Dee was in that book/movie. He had repeated victims. I think Patsy & JR did what they did that night out of a manic desperation to save their son and family.
7. This is obviously your theory. Fine. But there is nothing I can see that suggests it is fact.
8.My statement is correct. Only Wecht disagreed. Your comment is insulting. I know the case very well. Your attack, which only demeans the attacker, adds nothing to your theories.
9. Having had a family member murdered by an intruder, and having to be the one to identify the body in the morgue (not easy to do when someone is shot in the head from about 6 inches away- messy and not a lot of face left to identify) I think I am probably more familiar with murder than you are and certainly more familiar than anyone who just reads about it.
10. I am sure Patsy had mental issues which her family likely attributed to her cancer battles. JR probably just didn't want to deal with it. And I certainly feel that her chemotherapy and subsequent drug therapies (Klonopin was found in the home) can cause psychosis in certain people. Even over-the-counter sleep aids can do that.
11. Yep.

With all due respect:
1. It wasn't a noose it was a supension device.
2. The wrist ligatures were over the sweater sleeves tight enough to hold the weight of the arms (less than four pounds) in suspension.
3. Liver mortis is the result of blood pooling due to gravity not compression.
4. There was no staging, none. Who said she was posed for twenty minutes? Not me. I think much less.
5. It is not the responsibilty of the coroner to divine the intent of the ligature, only the results. Hangings indeed produce horizontal marks and the autopsy reports a slight upward deviation at the back of the neck.
6. John didn't see her either and he lived with her, so don't feel bad.
7. Blinders. Try reading more.
8. If you knew the case you would not have said only one wrist was ligatured.
9. Obviously not.
10. Those were factors I'm sure. The long term indications of an identity/personality disorder are evident in her relationship to the works of Muriel Spark.
11. Being offended by the actions of a psychopath is an indication of normalcy. Sweeping them under the rug is not.

This is posted with intent to educate and help you not insult you.

 

[Anti-K]

OTG, DeeDee249, AK – who’ve studied this more than I, I’m trying to understand the manner that this neck ligature functioned.

Not meaning to make this discussion too convoluted, just wanting to understand the physics of this. If it were not a “slip knot”, (like a noose or lasso) just two knots together which tied the neck ligature, then would someone pulling on either the loose end of the ligature or the garrote itself, even cause a strangulation? Mechanical pressure from someone pulling on this, or from the weight of her body if she collapsed upon the neck ligature? (My understanding of strangulation is a tightening, constricting of a device.) Is it functioning more like a tourniquet, simply cutting off blood flow? Would it be only the swelling of her neck while dying which created such a tight ligature “embedded” in her neck? Please jump in with thoughts here. TIA

If it were not a slip knot would pulling on one end or the other cause a strangulation? Probably, but you wouldn’t end up with the circumferential furrow.

As a slip knot the ligature should have tightened around the neck almost exactly as you see in this video: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr

There are different ways of tying slip knots and some only slip one way – tight only. The one in the video slips both ways – it tightens, it loosens. I don’t know if the slip knot used on Jonbenet slipped both ways.

It just isn’t possible to tell from photographs alone exactly how any of the knots were tied.

Yes, it would have functioned as a tourniquet – simply cutting off blood flow. However, it would not have been tightened as a tourniquet is tightened, it would have been tightened as demonstrated in my video.

The circumferential furrow is the result of the ligature being tightened to a circumference smaller in size than that of the victim’s neck. Think of a 9 inch cord around a ten inch neck. This would create a furrow about a third of an inch deep. The furrow is definitely not from post-mortem bloat.

There can be post-mortem swelling, and in some cases this can accentuate a furrow, but the embedding must be there to begin with. We don’t know if post-mortem swelling contributed to the appearance of the furrow on Jonbenet. There is no evidence that it did.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I’ll offer an alternative view on how the wrist ligatures were tied. I think that the loops around the wrists were of a fixed-size. The knot used in this video is probably not the knot used on Jonbenet, but it is one of many knots that can be used to create a loop of fixed-size: http://tinyurl.com/qx9jkhy

Two things to note in the video: it doesn’t matter which end of the cord you pull on the loop remains fixed in size, and, the loop cannot be tied around a wrist (or any object). You tie the knot first and then you slip the loop over the wrist.

The coroner slipped the ligature off of Jonbenet’s wrist. He didn’t loosen it, he didn’t un-tie it. He slipped it off.

The only way to change the size of a loop tied in this way is to untie the knot. When you untie the knot, the loop gets smaller and you create a second loop; like this: http://tinyurl.com/nmetyy2
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

Can we just agree it was some sort of rope tied strangulation device and stop picking at the word choices we're making? It's confusing.

Garrote, noose, whatever. It was a rope tied around her neck, tightly enough to strangle her somehow.

 

[otg]

(snipped and bbm)

The circumferential furrow is the result of the ligature being tightened to a circumference smaller in size than that of the victim’s neck. Think of a 9 inch cord around a ten inch neck. This would create a furrow about a third of an inch deep. The furrow is definitely not from post-mortem bloat.

There can be post-mortem swelling, and in some cases this can accentuate a furrow, but the embedding must be there to begin with. We don’t know if post-mortem swelling contributed to the appearance of the furrow on Jonbenet. There is no evidence that it did.

You’ve used the word “bloat” now in almost a half dozen posts to insinuate that I (or someone) had claimed that. I haven’t responded previously because I didn’t want to have to call you out on it -- but again, you bring it up. I have never used the word “bloat” (use the “Search” function above if you care to confirm that) on this (or any other) forum. I don’t know of anyone else who has other than you. I’m not sure if you don’t know the difference between bloat and edema, or if you’re simply trying to deliberately misrepresent what I (or someone) said.

Bloating is one of the stages in corpse decomposition. From Wikipedia (bbm):

The second stage of decomposition is bloating; bacteria in the gut begin to break down the tissues of the body, releasing gas that accumulates in the intestines, which becomes trapped because of the early collapse of the small intestine. This bloating occurs largely in the abdomen, and sometimes in the mouth and genitals. The tongue may swell. This usually happens in about the second week of decomposition. Gas accumulation and bloating will continue until the body is decomposed sufficiently for the gas to escape.
​

Bloating has absolutely nothing to do with the edema that occurs around a neck ligature.

More information on ligature strangulation and its effects (keeping in mind that ligature strangulation is similar regardless of how it occurs) from here:

There is considerable folklore about the neck injury in judicial hanging, including the notion that radical displaced fractures occur. So, common misconception allows that there will be fractures or some sort of internal neck injury in people who hang themselves. In fact, in suicidal hanging there is scarcely ever any internal evidence of neck injury at all. Suicidal hanging is usually affected with very little force. It is painless, and can be accomplished even when lying down in bed. External injury including the dramatic “rope burns” or ligature abrasion only occurs after the body has been suspended for several hours after death. If the ligature is released at the moment of death, there will be no mark in the skin. Leave the body hang suspended by the ligature for a few hours, and a very dramatic furrow and ligature abrasion will develop post-mortem. Immediate death from hanging or strangulation can progress from one of four mechanisms:

1. cardiac arrhythmia may be provoked by pressure on the carotid artery nerve ganglion (carotid body reflex) causing cardiac arrest
2. pressure obstruction of the carotid arteries prevents blood flow to the brain
3. pressure on the jugular veins prevents venous blood return from the brain, gradually backing up blood in the brain resulting in unconsciousness,depressed respiration, and asphyxia
4. pressure obstruction of the larynx cuts off air flow to the lungs, producing asphyxia
​

Item number 1 must be very uncommon. The reflex cardiac arrhythmia can be reproducibly demonstrated in humans, but force must be applied over a very localized and specific anatomic area. Item number 2 must also be very uncommon in suicidal hangings, but may be more frequent in homicidal strangulations. Quite a bit of pressure is required to obstruct arterial flow in the carotids, and that amount of force would typically be associated with obvious soft tissue injury locally in the neck. Item number 3 is probably the usual route for death by suicidal hanging. Slight pressure fully or at least partially obstructs venous return in the jugular veins, gradually causing passive congestion of blood in the vessels within the brain. This diminishes oxygen delivery to the brain, eventually resulting in loss of consciousness. The type of pressure required is slight, but prolonged. Unconsciousness probably doesn’t occur for several minutes, but the overall process is completely painless.
​

 

[questfortrue]

Can we just agree it was some sort of rope tied strangulation device and stop picking at the word choices we're making? It's confusing.

Garrote, noose, whatever. It was a rope tied around her neck, tightly enough to strangle her somehow.

Cutting to the chase about a cord strangling her, we got agreement here!!

The explanations about the knots were actually really helpful to me. But I get your point about the terms of the knots being confusing. Schiller called it a noose, the Coroner called it a double knot (which made it sound fixed to me), and the BPD called it a capsized square knot. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something. :lookingitup:

 

[Venom]

The different terminology of the rope tied around her neck is confusing.

 

[Anti-K]

(snipped and bbm) You’ve used the word “bloat” now in almost a half dozen posts to insinuate that I (or someone) had claimed that. I haven’t responded previously because I didn’t want to have to call you out on it -- but again, you bring it up. I have never used the word “bloat” (use the “Search” function above if you care to confirm that) on this (or any other) forum. I don’t know of anyone else who has other than you. I’m not sure if you don’t know the difference between bloat and edema, or if you’re simply trying to deliberately misrepresent what I (or someone) said.

Bloating is one of the stages in corpse decomposition. From Wikipedia (bbm):

The second stage of decomposition is bloating; bacteria in the gut begin to break down the tissues of the body, releasing gas that accumulates in the intestines, which becomes trapped because of the early collapse of the small intestine. This bloating occurs largely in the abdomen, and sometimes in the mouth and genitals. The tongue may swell. This usually happens in about the second week of decomposition. Gas accumulation and bloating will continue until the body is decomposed sufficiently for the gas to escape.
​

Bloating has absolutely nothing to do with the edema that occurs around a neck ligature.

More information on ligature strangulation and its effects (keeping in mind that ligature strangulation is similar regardless of how it occurs) from here:

There is considerable folklore about the neck injury in judicial hanging, including the notion that radical displaced fractures occur. So, common misconception allows that there will be fractures or some sort of internal neck injury in people who hang themselves. In fact, in suicidal hanging there is scarcely ever any internal evidence of neck injury at all. Suicidal hanging is usually affected with very little force. It is painless, and can be accomplished even when lying down in bed. External injury including the dramatic “rope burns” or ligature abrasion only occurs after the body has been suspended for several hours after death. If the ligature is released at the moment of death, there will be no mark in the skin. Leave the body hang suspended by the ligature for a few hours, and a very dramatic furrow and ligature abrasion will develop post-mortem. Immediate death from hanging or strangulation can progress from one of four mechanisms:

1. cardiac arrhythmia may be provoked by pressure on the carotid artery nerve ganglion (carotid body reflex) causing cardiac arrest
2. pressure obstruction of the carotid arteries prevents blood flow to the brain
3. pressure on the jugular veins prevents venous blood return from the brain, gradually backing up blood in the brain resulting in unconsciousness,depressed respiration, and asphyxia
4. pressure obstruction of the larynx cuts off air flow to the lungs, producing asphyxia
​

Item number 1 must be very uncommon. The reflex cardiac arrhythmia can be reproducibly demonstrated in humans, but force must be applied over a very localized and specific anatomic area. Item number 2 must also be very uncommon in suicidal hangings, but may be more frequent in homicidal strangulations. Quite a bit of pressure is required to obstruct arterial flow in the carotids, and that amount of force would typically be associated with obvious soft tissue injury locally in the neck. Item number 3 is probably the usual route for death by suicidal hanging. Slight pressure fully or at least partially obstructs venous return in the jugular veins, gradually causing passive congestion of blood in the vessels within the brain. This diminishes oxygen delivery to the brain, eventually resulting in loss of consciousness. The type of pressure required is slight, but prolonged. Unconsciousness probably doesn’t occur for several minutes, but the overall process is completely painless.
​

I’m insinuating nothing. I am stating facts. The furrow is not from post-mortem bloat. We don’t know if post-mortem swelling contributed to the appearance of the furrow, but there is no evidence that it did. The circumferential furrow is the result of the ligature being tightened to a circumference smaller in size than that of the victim’s neck.

Again, I am insinuating nothing. I am addressing possible explanations for the furrow: post-mortem bloat, post-mortem swelling and tightness of the ligature.

I’m not directing these comments towards any specific individual. I am insinuating nothing. I am simply answering a question that was posed to me.

Post-mortem bloat is a claim that has been made by some, and, I have had discussions with a few of who have made this claim. I will name two: Delmar England and Rashomon. So, you see, not only am I not insinuating anything, but I am also not deliberately, or otherwise, misrepresenting anything that anyone has said.

Your accusations are false, and disturbing. But, no worries. These things happen.
.

I’m sure that there would be a significant difference between the furrow that would develop from a body that was left suspended for several hours and one that was not suspended! Good grief.
...

AK