The Pineapple

[BBB167893]

"I could be completely wrong here, but I thought there was little to no bleeding from the broken skull, so they thought she was already dead when she was hit???"

No, several pathologists said she could have stayed alive for ten to 45 minutes after the head wound. It's actually common for severe skull fractures not to bleed at all. Head wounds are funny like that.

"If the headbash was accidental and the garrote staging there is no intent to kill. There was intent to deceive."

That's the prevailing wisdom. There's no indication she fought against the garrote.

 

[TexMex]

That's the prevailing wisdom. There's no indication she fought against the garrote.

Hi SuperDave


Other than the DNA under her fingernails that matches the DNA in her panties?

It did not match her parents....

 

[BBB167893]

"Other than the DNA under her fingernails that matches the DNA in her panties?"

That's a totally separate issue, TexMex. There were no erratic marks from the cord, no scratch marks above the cord, no bruises on her arms, etc.

That DNA is not proven to be from a killer. It was so degraded it only had about 2 loci, TexMex. To make the assumption that the DNA you speak of came from a killer, you have to assume she scratched him. No evidence for that. If she had, there would have been fresh DNA, and plenty of it.

And also, no one could ever say that the DNA in her panties matched the fingernail DNA. That's a fact.

"It did not match her parents...."

But there's no evidence as of yet it came from a killer either.

 

[close_enough]

The pineapple issue summarizes the Ramsey approach in a nutshell. The problem is not just that it points to a lie. The already-asleep-straight-to-bed story was the quickest way they could find to avoid ANY questions about the sort of exchanges that occurred that night. And this desire to oversimplify came back to undo them. Had they opted for even a partial truth regarding that - bothered to deal with the nuances of possible exchanges, they would not have been caught in that lie but again here, the desire was to divulge absolutely nothing. They were always looking for the shortest way to shut LE up and not to have to say anything whatsoever. And that was the general rule of thumb adopted by them.

JMO

exactly...it's not hard to remember 'she was asleep & was put into bed....

 

[Toltec]

Okay, this Karr guy killed JonBenet because she recognized him? What would JonBenet tell John and Patsy?

Mom, Dad, John Karr molested me! John said that he and Patsy never met this John Karr! Even now that John saw this Karr's face, he had never seen him before.

 

[BlueCrab]

There's good arguments on both sides of the aisle when it comes to what occurred first -- the strangulation or the headbash. However, IMO the strangulation was first because of the scarcity of blood from the head trauma -- none externally and only 7 to 8 cc's of residual blood internally. When the body is dead, the heart cannot pump blood.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

But wasn't the head wound fully developed, with her brain swollen and pressed up against the inside of her skull? How long does it take for that to happen? How is that happening if she's being strangled and near dead when hit on the head?

 

[Texana]

Considering those prints a solid link between Patsy Ramsey and the pineapple is absurd. It's a prime example of Steve Thomas' complete lack of objectivity in investigating this case. I would expect that my fingerprints are on every dish, bowl, glass, pot, pan, etc, etc, etc in my kitchen cabinets.

Exactly, Scout. I mentioned this fact to my husband in discussing the pros/cons of each who did it scenario--and he looked at me like I was an idiot.

"Why wouldn't Patsy's fingerprints be on the bowl?"

:blushing: I was so embarrassed I didn't think as you did right away.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Exactly, Scout. I mentioned this fact to my husband in discussing the pros/cons of each who did it scenario--and he looked at me like I was an idiot.

"Why wouldn't Patsy's fingerprints be on the bowl?"

:blushing: I was so embarrassed I didn't think as you did right away.

Maybe because Patsy tried to claim that wasn't her bowl. She was caught in a lie when she tried to say that she didn't recognize the bowl. Both John and Burke did, and her prints on it.

Just the pineapple being out and in JonBenet's digestive system behind the crab dinner she had the White's tells you she had to have been awake at some point after arriving home, especially when her brother Burke said she was awake and walked in the house right in front of the mother - which contradicts the story Patsy and John told about her being asleep. Who's telling the truth here?

Ask yourself this - what reason does Patsy have to lie?

 

[BlueCrab]

Maybe because Patsy tried to claim that wasn't her bowl. She was caught in a lie when she tried to say that she didn't recognize the bowl. Both John and Burke did, and her prints on it.

Just the pineapple being out and in JonBenet's digestive system behind the crab dinner she had the White's tells you she had to have been awake at some point after arriving home, especially when her brother Burke said she was awake and walked in the house right in front of the mother - which contradicts the story Patsy and John told about her being asleep. Who's telling the truth here?

Ask yourself this - what reason does Patsy have to lie?

Nuisanceposter,

Patsy Ramsey didn't have any reason to lie about the pineapple.

The bowl of pineapple and the waterglass with a tea bag in it sitting out on the breakfast room table, with Burke's fingerprints on both of them, tells the story -- JonBenet and Burke were together downstairs in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed. According to the partly digested pineapple in her small intestine, JonBenet apparently snacked on the pineapple one to two hours before she died.

Patsy was caught in a lot of lies, but IMO the pineapple wasn't one of them.

BlueCrab

 

[BBB167893]

"But wasn't the head wound fully developed, with her brain swollen and pressed up against the inside of her skull? How long does it take for that to happen? How is that happening if she's being strangled and near dead when hit on the head?"

The pathologists said ten minutes to an hour, NP.

 

[aspidistra]

The pineapple has always been a problem because only Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.

However, you could speculate that the bowl was left out on the table all night. I can't imagine it, but some people do leave food out. Then maybe JBR did get up hungry and see the bowl and take some pineapple from it without touching the bowl, or maybe Karr did the same.

However, for this scenario to work, the bowl had to be left out.

 

[Lurker Steve]

Oh, thanks Tumble. This has been nagging me all day. Funny that neighbours heard 'things' but the Ramsay's did not.Do you think they had been drinking heavily and this dulled there senses? I recall seeing the window ( you kid of dropped down into it) It had a steel grate down. Anyone could have crouched down that pit thingy without being seen by anyone.

Accoustics can be a strange thing.

I live in a one-bedroom apartment, top floor. If my bedroom door is closed, but my window is open, I can hear the kids on the sidewalk, people talking on their phones (in other buildings!), etc.

But I can't hear anyone knock on my door unless they are POUNDING on it.

 

[tumble]

Accoustics can be a strange thing.

I live in a one-bedroom apartment, top floor. If my bedroom door is closed, but my window is open, I can hear the kids on the sidewalk, people talking on their phones (in other buildings!), etc.

But I can't hear anyone knock on my door unless they are POUNDING on it.

Yes Lurker, infact the acoustics in the Ramsey house were very strange and Lou Smit did some serious testing to show that a scream in the basement was barely audible in the R's bedroom.

The problem is that an intruder would not know that, nobody knew that before LE testing.
And he couldn't be certain that neighbours wouldn't hear it and call LE.

And if there was a scream, why did he bring duct tape with him and not use it?
Strange enough he saw it appropriate to use the duct tape after she had passed out, as the lip imprint on the duct tape was perfect indicating no movement of the lips.

 

[Lurker Steve]

Yes Lurker, infact the acoustics in the Ramsey house were very strange and Lou Smit did some serious testing to show that a scream in the basement was barely audible in the R's bedroom.

The problem is that an intruder would not know that, nobody knew that before LE testing.
And he couldn't be certain that neighbours wouldn't hear it and call LE.

And if there was a scream, why did he bring duct tape with him and not use it?
Strange enough he saw it appropriate to use the duct tape after she had passed out, as the lip imprint on the duct tape was perfect indicating no movement of the lips.

I'm guessing the Ramsey's knew, at some level. I bet most of us know the general accoustics of our homes.

But I don't see it strange to use duct tape if you think they are merely unconscious, especially if they were screaming just a few minutes before.

 

[tumble]

I'm guessing the Ramsey's knew, at some level. I bet most of us know the general accoustics of our homes.

But I don't see it strange to use duct tape if you think they are merely unconscious, especially if they were screaming just a few minutes before.

Do you suggest the R's explained the acoustics to the intruder?

Why not use the duct tape he brought to the scene right away?

So you think he made her unconsious right after the scream?
Was it then he started tying the ligature around her neck?

 

[BBB167893]

All good questions, tumble.