The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

I find your remarks surprising in light of the fact that you were a breastfeeding mom. Usually I have only encountered that type of thinking in moms who hadnt breast feed.

The breastfeeding baby is uniquely attached to the process of breast feeding as much as to the milk itself.

As far as not being forced to pump...if the moms milk production volume is great - either because the baby is young or because solid food has not yet been introduced - trust me, that mom IS going to need to pump!

In addition, the mom knowing that breast milk is the best food for her baby might have wanted to keep her supply up in hopes of being able to do at least that much for her child.

These are not cattle we are talking about here. And whether we like or dislike their religion or lifestyle doesn't justify our callous indifference to their plight as nursing mothers and babies.

To do that would say nothing about them and everything about us.

 

[LinasK]

These are not cattle we are talking about here. And whether we like or dislike their religion or lifestyle doesn't justify our callous indifference to their plight as nursing mothers and babies.

To do that would say nothing about them and everything about us.

And yet, that's just how the FLDS treats these families- as women who are interbred like cattle with about as little say in the matter, and they routinely separate the children from their birth mothers so they can't form attachments. I'd prefer to separate an at-risk baby from it's abuser even if it means giving up breast-feeding. The child will survive! These women are brain-washed, and there have been many reports that the women are physically abusive to the children- it's not just the FLDS men that abuse! I fully support the actions of the Texas CPS in conducting this raid.

 

[Glow]

Yes, I fully understand that you support the CPS.



"Some children, separated suddenly and forcibly from their parents, were in shock and dehydrated from the trauma."

“It didn’t seem like there was any sort of thoughtfulness to the plan. Nobody would listen. [CPS] just would not negotiate. It seems to me,” noted Balovich, “that for their proported purpose, this had to be the worst way of going about it.”

http://www.bigbendgazette.com/blog/_archives/2008/7/1/3771392.html


I can only support CPS when they do their job correctly. Not when they become more abusive to the children than the original situation was.



As I said, whether we like or dislike their religion or lifestyle doesn't justify our callous indifference to their plight as nursing mothers and babies.

To do that would say nothing about them and everything about us.

 

[thefragile7393]

As far as not being forced to pump...if the moms milk production volume is great - either because the baby is young or because solid food has not yet been introduced - trust me, that mom IS going to need to pump!

Absolutely....and if the child is under a year, milk is still the mainstay of of a child's diet, solids are only a supplement. Even then, pumping wouldn't help a child who absolutely refuses a bottle....sometimes I could get him to take a cup of my milk but much of the time he wanted straight from the tap so to speak....trying to force him to take a bottle resulted in much heartache and much realization on my part that he could not be forced.

As I said, whether we like or dislike their religion or lifestyle doesn't justify our callous indifference to their plight as nursing mothers and babies.

Exactly. The abuse was not happening to these babies, there really was no need to take them away from whatever mother figure or figures they had. To investigate the allegations of abuse in the older children (or just girls), that's one thing, but this with babies and young little ones did NOT need to happen, that's just overzealousness on their part. Shooting first and asking questions later, so to speak, definitely does not work, especially with a group like this. That kind of mentality CPS does not need.

 

[PSUfan]

Sorry, if there are several substitute "mothers", not the person breast-feeding, I have great difficulty believing a baby gets attached to all of them. I also don't believe that CPS tore breast-feeding babies away, this is all FLDS propaganda, and F.Y.I. I breast-fed my daughter for 9 months and supplemented with one bottle a day and it didn't harm her.

It seems you would prefer to leave an at-risk baby with her abuser, just so that she could be breast-fed.

I have no problem with an abused baby being torn away from a breast feeding mother, or any mother. I do have a problem with what happened in Texas. These infants were not "at risk". And I am another mother who had a baby who would not.. WOULD NOT take a bottle. I also "wet nursed" a baby (while I was also nursing my baby) who's mother was in an auto accident, and was in the emergency room. The mother was so thankful, as was the grandmother who was babysitting until mother was back home. This little baby would not take the bottle, and just screamed and cried until he was nursed. I have seen how traumatizing it is for an infant to suddenly lose the comfort of nursing.

Sure, the kid would've eventually took a bottle, and forgotten all about it, but in the Texas CPS fiasco, there was NO GOOD REASON to take infant babies from their mothers.. nursing or otherwise.

 

[thefragile7393]

I have no problem with an abused baby being torn away from a breast feeding mother, or any mother. I do have a problem with what happened in Texas.These infants were not "at risk". And I am another mother who had a baby who would not.. WOULD NOT take a bottle. I also "wet nursed" a baby (while I was also nursing my baby) who's mother was in an auto accident, and was in the emergency room. The mother was so thankful, as was the grandmother who was babysitting until mother was back home. This little baby would not take the bottle, and just screamed and cried until he was nursed. I have seen how traumatizing it is for an infant to suddenly lose the comfort of nursing.

Sure, the kid would've eventually took a bottle, and forgotten all about it, but in the Texas CPS fiasco, there was NO GOOD REASON to take infant babies from their mothers.. nursing or otherwise.

Bolding mine, because I fully agree. That, LinasK, is the difference. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that the supposed call was not about infants and small children at risk, that the infants and small children WERE NOT AT RISK. Again, your callous attitude, combined with being a former nursing mother, really, at the least, is sad. By all means get the girls in danger OUT and get the men who are perpetrators away in and jail where they belong. No one argues that. However, no small children and infants were in danger of being be forced into an early marriage and/or were sexually abused...and if the perps were taken away, then they definitely wouldn't have been in future danger. There's always 2 sides to every story, no matter how much you don't like the other side or believe anything that comes from it....and no one is going to come out of this mess completely lily-white and un-tarnished

 

[Glow]

Everything you said was very enlightening "thefragile." I was most focused though on your quote

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."---Patrick Moynihan

how very true. I totally agree.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I'm just jumping in with an opinion here. I'm the mother of three children, all breast-fed, and I can understand the point LinasK is making.

And I agree that there is some propaganda going on from the FLDS.

While many mothers can breastfeed beyond a year, and it's comforting, it is not necessary for life to go on, and it is not cruel to stop it. My daughter breastfed for 14 months and might have gone on longer but I chose to wean her. Her brothers both weaned themselves suddenly at 9 months and 10 months, and I can't tell you why to this day - they just lost interest because they wanted to get down and play, and they started sleeping through the night.

None of them were traumatized when it was over because I still let them have a bottle whenever they asked for one. My youngest also sucked his thumb and had a blanket for comfort.

I believe the state felt they had just cause to remove those children from their parents. The way of life with these forced teenage marriages displays a lack of empathy for children, if you ask me.

How can these mothers love their babies so much, but sacrifice their young teenage daughters and then let their sons be tossed out as teenagers so the old men don't have to compete? Is that good parenting? I cannot figure that out. :waitasec:

We also don't know what other practices were going on in this sect, such as punishment and indoctrination of children. Until we do, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Edited to Add: By the way, theFragile - how do you know that no children were being sexually abused? Would these mothers really have stopped a man from abusing their children if he thought it was ordained by God? The women may seem in control when they are in front of the video cameras, but clearly at home they were not making the rules.

 

[SewingDeb]

Excellent post ThoughtFox. You are so right that the FLDS women were not making the rules (and still aren't).

 

[Rino]

Edited to Add: By the way, theFragile - how do you know that no children were being sexually abused? Would these mothers really have stopped a man from abusing their children if he thought it was ordained by God? The women may seem in control when they are in front of the video cameras, but clearly at home they were not making the rules.

I think these woman look programed.

 

[Glow]

I think these woman look programed.

Hi Rino,

I intially thought that also. Then I went and read their words and observed their actions. I found that I was incorrect.

 

[Glow]

Interesting article on the CPS system as a whole. Not just inTexas.

It is written by Stephen M. Krason a professor of political science and legal studies at Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio and president of the Society of Catholic Social Scientists. He is co-editor of "Parental Rights and Defending the Family: A Sourcebook," and has written and lectured on the CPS for more than 20 years.
a few of his points -


With the dust now settled on the Texas raid on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) ranch, it is necessary to put this episode into the broader context of the child protective system (CPS) in the U.S.

....the Texas heavy-handedness is typical of the CPS, parents before the CPS have fewer due-process rights than murder defendants. In Texas, the children were seized without even an evidentiary hearing.


...far from doing what's best for children, the CPS often makes decisions that are harmful for them. Research has shown that even a mild CPS interference in a family can have deleterious consequences for the parent-child relationship. Outright separation, as in the FLDS case, can cause children psychological and even physical problems.

By readily putting children into the tumultuous foster-care system, they expose them to the possibility of true abuse


The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) data has shown the rate of child maltreatment in foster care to be 75 percent higher than in the general population.


The Texas calamity should result in a sweeping legislative investigation of that state's CPS - and a searching examination and reconsideration of the value of the entire CPS nationwide.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/20/child-protectors/

 

[SewingDeb]

It the abuse rate in foster care is 75% higher than the general population, we need to quit using foster homes and go back to orphanages.

 

[Glow]

It the abuse rate in foster care is 75% higher than the general population, we need to quit using foster homes and go back to orphanages.

Orphanages? Why Deb didnt you read Little Orphan Annie? They're worse yet! :crazy:

 

[LinasK]

Sure, the kid would've eventually took a bottle, and forgotten all about it, but in the Texas CPS fiasco, there was NO GOOD REASON to take infant babies from their mothers.. nursing or otherwise.

Yes, there was- physical, sexual, and emotional abuse, all of which these infants were at risk for in the FLDS compound environment!

 

[LinasK]

I think these woman look programed.

Exactly- they are Stepford Wives with no brains of their own, identical dress, and hairstyles. They might as well be robots! They say what they are ordered to say. They lie when it's convienient.

 

[LinasK]

Hi Rino,

I intially thought that also. Then I went and read their words and observed their actions. I found that I was incorrect.

Glow, why is it that you refuse to entertain the possibility that these FLDS women lie (on command, no less), yet refuse to believe that the ex-FLDS members such as Carolyn and Flora Jessop, who tell what really happens behind closed FLDS doors are not lying?????

 

[LinasK]

I'm just jumping in with an opinion here. I'm the mother of three children, all breast-fed, and I can understand the point LinasK is making.

And I agree that there is some propaganda going on from the FLDS.

While many mothers can breastfeed beyond a year, and it's comforting, it is not necessary for life to go on, and it is not cruel to stop it. My daughter breastfed for 14 months and might have gone on longer but I chose to wean her. Her brothers both weaned themselves suddenly at 9 months and 10 months, and I can't tell you why to this day - they just lost interest because they wanted to get down and play, and they started sleeping through the night.

None of them were traumatized when it was over because I still let them have a bottle whenever they asked for one. My youngest also sucked his thumb and had a blanket for comfort.

I believe the state felt they had just cause to remove those children from their parents. The way of life with these forced teenage marriages displays a lack of empathy for children, if you ask me.

How can these mothers love their babies so much, but sacrifice their young teenage daughters and then let their sons be tossed out as teenagers so the old men don't have to compete? Is that good parenting? I cannot figure that out. :waitasec:

We also don't know what other practices were going on in this sect, such as punishment and indoctrination of children. Until we do, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Edited to Add: By the way, theFragile - how do you know that no children were being sexually abused? Would these mothers really have stopped a man from abusing their children if he thought it was ordained by God? The women may seem in control when they are in front of the video cameras, but clearly at home they were not making the rules.

Thank-you Thought Fox for such an eloquent post!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Glow]

From Brooke Adams column today,

"A petition aimed at giving a pat on the back to Texas authorities who raided a polygamous sect in April has struggled to find supporters.
as of Sunday, had collected 265 electronic signatures. The goal is 10,000, according to the petition.
It was posted seven days after a ''Free The Innocent FLDS'' petition went up at the same public site. That petition, which gathered 1,000 signatures in five days, and 2,625 as of June 2, criticized the global removal of 440 FLDS children from the Yearning for Zion Ranch in early April.
others who added their names include a who's who of those who have spoken out against polygamous sects."

 

[Glow]

Glow, why is it that you refuse to entertain the possibility that these FLDS women lie

I can entertain that possibility.

Can you entertain the possibility that Angie Voss, Marleigh Meisner and Natalie Malonis have lied too?


Because if only one of us is willing to concede anything and the other is adamant about everything, then how are we going to even have a discussion? Much less sort out where the real truth lies.


So yes, I can entertain the possibility that the FLDS women lied.

Your turn.