The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

I still got to be honest Glow. Their being genuine is debateable.

Well good Rino! I love your kind of honesty

Just so I am clear who's genuine-ness is debatable?

Are you talking about Mary Batchelor or the FLDS women?

I would think that you are referring to the FLDS women but I am not sure and did not want to put words in your mouth.

If you are referring to the women of FLDS, in what way do you feel they are not genuine?

 

[Ciara]

Wrong Glow! It's not illogical. It's not even the same discussion, we are outraged by teen pregnancies. The difference is that they made the choice, they were not forced to have children by the FLDS. The FLDS girls are victims of rape and incest! Their choice was taken away from them, they weren't given the choice to mature before breeding with old men in pre-arranged forced marriages. That's why our outrage is greater than with just normal teen pregnancies. I do believe 18 and 19 year-olds are still too young to be mothers, even 20-year-olds don't often make good mothers because they lack sense and usually an education.

I have to say that this is what I tried to say or wanted to say all along but you said it soooo much better:clap:

 

[Glow]

Wrong Glow! It's not illogical. It's not even the same discussion, we are outraged by teen pregnancies. The difference is that they made the choice, they were not forced to have children by the FLDS. The FLDS girls are victims of rape and incest! Their choice was taken away from them, they weren't given the choice to mature before breeding with old men in pre-arranged forced marriages. That's why our outrage is greater than with just normal teen pregnancies. I do believe 18 and 19 year-olds are still too young to be mothers, even 20-year-olds don't often make good mothers because they lack sense and usually an education.

Hi LinasK,

I understand what you are saying about the incest and the older men young girl thing. I dont like that either.

But why do you think that it is that when the Amish do the same thing it we cant even generate a 2 page thread about here on WS. But when it is the FLDS we devote an entire forum to it. In your opinion why is that?

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

So the real question at hand is are the women really forced into marriage?

Even worse, are they forcing minors into marriage.

If the women and girls aren't being forced into marriage (and thus being raped), then I don't have any concerns with the FLDS. I do not think that there are problems with men having sex with people they aren't "married" to. So my concern is the age of the brides and whether the brides have a choice.

If, however, the women are forced into marriages, I have some real concerns, especially for the teen girls.

I honestly don't believe any of the abuse allogations about the FLDS except for the lost boys, the teen marriages, the assigning of girls or women to a man, and the reassigning of wives.

If none of those are true, I have no issues with the FLDS.

However, I have heard these allegations for years and believe they are true. I haven't seen anything that disproves that these things happen. I don't have much hard evidence aside from heresay. I think that is the frustrating part about the case. If we knew for sure what is really happending, we would know better how to handle the current situation.

 

[Glow]

I have to say that this is what I tried to say or wanted to say all along but you said it soooo much better:clap:

You know whats funny Ciara? All of us here on this thread cant even agree on what a good minimum age should be!

Well the experts tell us that the reason young mainstream teens get pregnant is to fill an empty spot in their lives - emotionally speaking. So that pretty much removes it from the arena of choice and moves it into the realm of a "need".

Some of us here have felt that a girl should be at least 18. Others feel even 18 is not old enough in todays society.

We all know that the FLDS have made a concerted effort to live as though this was 100 years ago. Where was mainstream America 100 years ago? Most women were raised to think in terms of finding the right man getting married and having children. If a woman belonged to a certain religion or cultural group (Catholic, Italian, Jewish) then she was expected to have LOTS of children, not just a token 4 or 5!

I think that the "gap" between the FLDS views on marriage and childbirth and mainstream view was much narrower. The public outcry after the Short Creek Raid seems to back that up.

Today we as mainstream women are ALL about choices. I cant see where our culture is any better off because of it though. Anxiety and depression are at all time highs as is child abuse, drug abuse, spousal abuse and so on. Divorce rates are at what now? Last I heard it was more than 50%. This leads to broken homes, confused kids and multiple families. It also leads to higher rates of teen pregnancy evidently.

I would imagine the typical FLDS girl begins taking care of babies when she is young. She grows up knowing about child care and being taught a clear and direct value system. She knows her role in her societal structure and has a sense of purpose within that structure.

by contrast,


One of the girls in the pregnancy pact was so anxious to be pregnant she got herself impregnated by a homeless man.

If we subtract for just one moment - and I know it is hard to do - the things that we find objectionable about the FLDS

how is the second scenario preferable to the first?

 

[SewingDeb]

Wrong Glow! It's not illogical. It's not even the same discussion, we are outraged by teen pregnancies. The difference is that they made the choice, they were not forced to have children by the FLDS. The FLDS girls are victims of rape and incest! Their choice was taken away from them, they weren't given the choice to mature before breeding with old men in pre-arranged forced marriages. That's why our outrage is greater than with just normal teen pregnancies. I do believe 18 and 19 year-olds are still too young to be mothers, even 20-year-olds don't often make good mothers because they lack sense and usually an education.

We've been trying to explain this to her for days but she just doesn't seem to understand or she sidesteps it and starts comparing the FLDS way of life with mainstream society's pregnant teenagers (who most likely chose to have sex with the partner of their choice). That, in my opinion, is very different from falling in love and then having sex as an expression of that love. The FLDS women and girls have no choice, never have had and never will from the looks of things. There is no dating, they aren't even allowed to flirt with or look at the boys. Forget about birth control options! That's not even a choice.

Glow says they are trying to live like 100 years ago. Even 100 years ago in America, I am sure the majority were not forced to marry old men not of their choosing.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, you didn't see the reports that the teen pregnancy pact did not exist? First a town official said it then reporters talked the teen girls who said there was no pregnancy pact. The individual girls may have wanted to get pregnant for their own reasons but there was no pact.

 

[Glow]

Glow, you didn't see the reports that the teen pregnancy pact did not exist? First a town official said it then reporters talked the teen girls who said there was no pregnancy pact. The individual girls may have wanted to get pregnant for their own reasons but there was no pact.

What I saw was the original story. I saw the comments of the nurse that she first became suspicious when the girls would exhibit anxiety upon finding out they were not pregnant. That was unusual. Someone asked the girls and that is when the whole "pact thing" came to light.

And yes I did see where later there was a retraction of the "pact"




The thing is, it is happening all over America pact or no pact. After a leveling off of teen pregnancies - they are on the rise again.

Just out of curiosity - did they get the teen impregnated by the homeless man to retract her story too?

 

[SewingDeb]

What I saw was the original story. I saw the comments of the nurse that she first became suspicious when the girls would exhibit anxiety upon finding out they were not pregnant. That was unusual. Someone asked the girls and that is when the whole "pact thing" came to light.

And yes I did see where later there was a retraction of the "pact"




The thing is, it is happening all over America pact or no pact. After a leveling off of teen pregnancies - they are on the rise again.

Just out of curiosity - did they get the teen impregnated by the homeless man to retract her story too?

I have no idea what problems the girl has who became pregnant by the homeless man (if that is even true).

That has absolutely nothing to do with the FLDS and their way of life. The FLDS females have no choice in who they have sex with or marry.

 

[Truly]

Glow, I notice you have never posted on either the Amish thread or the teen pregnancy thread. There were many people posting on those topics in those threads who may not see your comments here. Why not join in on the threads devoted to those subjects?

 

[Ciara]

You know whats funny Ciara? All of us here on this thread cant even agree on what a good minimum age should be!

Well the experts tell us that the reason young mainstream teens get pregnant is to fill an empty spot in their lives - emotionally speaking. So that pretty much removes it from the arena of choice and moves it into the realm of a "need".

Some of us here have felt that a girl should be at least 18. Others feel even 18 is not old enough in todays society.

We all know that the FLDS have made a concerted effort to live as though this was 100 years ago. Where was mainstream America 100 years ago? Most women were raised to think in terms of finding the right man getting married and having children. If a woman belonged to a certain religion or cultural group (Catholic, Italian, Jewish) then she was expected to have LOTS of children, not just a token 4 or 5!

I think that the "gap" between the FLDS views on marriage and childbirth and mainstream view was much narrower. The public outcry after the Short Creek Raid seems to back that up.

Today we as mainstream women are ALL about choices. I cant see where our culture is any better off because of it though. Anxiety and depression are at all time highs as is child abuse, drug abuse, spousal abuse and so on. Divorce rates are at what now? Last I heard it was more than 50%. This leads to broken homes, confused kids and multiple families. It also leads to higher rates of teen pregnancy evidently.

I would imagine the typical FLDS girl begins taking care of babies when she is young. She grows up knowing about child care and being taught a clear and direct value system. She knows her role in her societal structure and has a sense of purpose within that structure.

by contrast,


One of the girls in the pregnancy pact was so anxious to be pregnant she got herself impregnated by a homeless man.

If we subtract for just one moment - and I know it is hard to do - the things that we find objectionable about the FLDS

how is the second scenario preferable to the first?

I agree with a lot of what you say in this post Glow and to me neither scenario is acceptable really but the thread is about only one of those scenarios and that is the FLDS and this whole CPS issue. The other scenario is just as disgusting really but its a separate topic although I do see why you are making the comparison.
As to the "what is an acceptable age" issue. For me personally, I would feel better about it legally at 18 but emotionally etc...25 and up is a better age to start having kids after the girls have grown and matured better.

I know that I had my only child at 20 and I would do a lot of things a whole lot differently had I waited longer as even then I was not mature enough in too many ways. We change so much between our early teens and our later teens and then we change throughout our twenties and thirties. Thought patterns, everything changes. I just think its better to wait before having babies so young.

 

[Glow]

I have been wondering why the news is so quiet concerning whatever happened to Rozita Swinton. I found this article. It seems well investigated and the writer totally disagrees with something that gets said a lot on this thread. I will bold that part in case you want to skip to it. For my part I was glad to find this article because I have thought the news black out on Rosita was very strange.



"Within two weeks of raiding the FLDS ranch in Eldorado, Texas was also conducting another raid, one that they hoped would go more quietly. They've had almost 90 days to evaluate the evidence taken in that raid as well. They were in Rozita Swinton's apartment. They took a statement, they collected evidence, and they pretended not to know anything.


CNN - April 23rd, 2008 - "Although Texas officials said they have not found the woman who made the calls, they said they have found evidence that girls as young at 13 are forced into marriages with older men at the ranch."


We now know the opposite is true. Texas did in fact find the woman that made the calls, that's why they were there. They have not found any 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 year old girls forced into marriages with older men at the ranch.

In fact Texas is truth challenged when it comes to the YFZ raid, having spread numerous false stories about the FLDS that have one by one, been proven to be untrue. So when they open their mouths to say SOMETHING, we no longer believe it. What we should be looking at now, is what they will say NOTHING about.

Distraction is an art used in politics and lying and in magic acts. The whole point of distraction is to do something right under your nose that you will not notice because, you're distracted. Bump a mark, lift their wallet. Point to the American Eagle, and palm a coin which you later "take" from someone's ear. Texas has been as leaky as the Titanic when it comes to rumors about the FLDS, so what have they been doing with that valuable distraction?

Human nature should tell us that the thing Texas does NOT talk about is the thing they wish to conceal. That would be Roztia Swinton. Just as they have had a lot to say about crimes that did not occur with evidence they have collected from every nook and cranny of the YFZ ranch, they have had nothing to say about evidence they've had almost equally as long regarding Rozita.

By now, don't you think they would have said SOMETHING about her publically? Never mind the fact that it's probably ill advised to do so, if there was no pattern of deception in the YFZ story, just a bunch of over enthusiastic CPS workers and Texas Rangers thinking they'd found the Holy Grail of abuse, wouldn't there have been leakage from them about Rozita?

There has in fact been complete SILENCE. This proves Texas can keep a secret when it wants to so since we have no statements, we have by their behavior, proof of a secret. We also have proof they want it to be secret. To review. Texas has engaged in a rumor mongering free for all when it comes to allegations about the FLDS at YFZ. They have been more silent than Garbo when it comes to Rozita.

For us the questions center around what Rozita's involvement was with FLDS haters like Flora Jessop. What were Flora's connections with Texas and so on. How much commerce was there between all those parties (and others) leading up to the raid. If there had been any investigation of Rozita and her possible connections, we'd have heard about it now."


http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/

 

[Ciara]

I forgot to add that also for me like the others posting on this thread, the key word is CHOICE. Mainstream teenagers have it.....FLDS teens do not.
BIG difference.

 

[Glow]

I agree with a lot of what you say in this post Glow and to me neither scenario is acceptable really but the thread is about only one of those scenarios and that is the FLDS and this whole CPS issue. The other scenario is just as disgusting really but its a separate topic although I do see why you are making the comparison.
As to the "what is an acceptable age" issue. For me personally, I would feel better about it legally at 18 but emotionally etc...25 and up is a better age to start having kids after the girls have grown and matured better.

I know that I had my only child at 20 and I would do a lot of things a whole lot differently had I waited longer as even then I was not mature enough in too many ways. We change so much between our early teens and our later teens and then we change throughout our twenties and thirties. Thought patterns, everything changes. I just think its better to wait before having babies so young.

Ciara we posted at the exact same time - we couldnt have done that deliberately if we had tried! :clap:

I agree with you totally about emotional maturity and choice also. I think you are relatively new to this board arent you? I dont know if you were following this case on your own or reading about it here, but in case you were not let me just say you would not believe the highly inflammatory things that were flying around the internet about this whole FLDS situation.

It all started with CPS grimly announcing (inaccurately) that they had huge numbers of pregnant girls and it went from there. The terminology of "pregnant teen" became "pregnant child" that terminology de - volved into "baby rapers" and lets dont forget that all powerful word PEDOPHILE. I really hate seeing that word bandied about freely because what that means ultimately, is that it will begin to lose its power. That word needs to be kept as the awful thing it is so it will match the awful act it describes. Instead I see kids calling each other that in school now as a joke. This unfortunately provides a great smoke screen for true pedophiles to move around behind. Now that word is a dime a dozen - it packs no punch - the pedophiles have to be thrilled about that.

I may only be one person but I am not going to jump in be part of making that word generic. I know what pedophilia is and how insidious its nature is and I am going to fight it. One way I am going to fight it is by not participating in mass hysteria propaganda campaigns. I learned a long time ago that it is human nature to clump together and believe the worst. It is also human nature if we have power - to use it - even if we are dead wrong. That is why we have the old saying

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I would like to think that if I had been alive when Henry the 8th was chopping heads off women he was tired of, that I would NOT have believed the Kings "official" propaganda.

I would like to think that during the Salem witch hunts that I would have not stood by clapping my self righteous little hands while the men did the equivalent of "water boarding" innocent women.

I would also "like" to think that if I had been around when the West was being "won" that I wouldn't have thought that burning out the Indians and completely decimating their culture and their families in the name of my "better" way of life was a good thing.

But I didn't live then. I live now. I know that if the FLDS needs to change, it needs to happen in a way that is not fear inducing to innocent children. It needs to happen in a way that shows respect towards women. And most especially it needs to be done without violating the rights of those we are claiming to want to help.

CPS is one bad dude in case you havent gathered. It is the monster that lies within our bosom. Maybe in England it is better but in America it is THE MOST ABUSIVE entity that American children have to fear. Texas is one of the worst of all states. Children taken by CPS end up drugged beaten raped and sodomized in far greater numbers then have EVER happened in the FLDS.

I never stated that I thought it was ok for young girls to have sex. I just didn't see traumatizing them, forcing them to endure humiliating vaginal prodding exams in a mass hunt for "abuse", as being our best and highest response to things.

Where the misunderstanding occurred was when I attempted to walk around this situation in a wide circle and look at it from every angle. You see at that time, back in April, unless you viewed the FLDS as all BLACK and CPS as all WHITE, that could only mean one thing...that you agree with the wrong. I made the decision to keep looking at what was in front of me and put the puzzle pieces together myself. The best indicator of the future is the past - and as humans - our basic needs and wants remain the same. When I look back at history I see that women have been used as currency always. They still are today. While I dont approve of that I am enough of a realist to know that I cannot change human nature for very long by using force. But I can change things if I can reach hearts. We all can.

So while most posters were pretty much posting

"OMG these baby raping pervert pedophiles using temple beds to have sex need to be burned out of Texas and then run out of the country and oh yeah, God bless Texas!"

over and over again ad nauseam, I felt like I would like to post something a little different. They were making their ONE point so well, I was sure I wouldn't be missed from the group voice if I stood off to one side and tried to ask myself questions such as

Why do the FLDS cling to polygamy?

Are the women down trodden or could it be that they have not drunk long and deep from the feminist Kool aid?

Are men having sex with children?

Is CPS telling the truth?

and so on. One post I made was about the anthropological and biological aspects of human sexuality. I said that if you had a bunch of pre pubescent children on a boat and the adults all died and the boat landed on an island and the kids were able to eat fruit and survive - what would you expect to see happen when they all entered puberty? Well logically they would begin to have sex. So on a BIOLOGICAL level the body is giving an indicator of readiness. That was my only point.

In a climate of great anger and emotion, points that are subtle or too "gray" instead of black and white get gulped up and hurled back in a total and different way. Some people even used the threads that were supposed to be about these poor victimized children to go on and on about their own abuse thus deflecting the attention away from the children entirely and on to themselves. Ironic huh?


I wish (perhaps in vain) that people would read my posts as they are worded instead of assuming.... what I think is pretty simple. Because I chose to look at a behavior in an attempt to understand it, in no way means that I condone that behavior.

I do appreciate your kind and thoughtful posts. Even if we dont agree on everything.

 

[Montana]

Yawwwnnnn. No disrespect intended for the posters that are sincere and caring but honestly, this thread has been hi-jacked.

 

[Truly]

Are the women down trodden or could it be that they have not drunk long and deep from the feminist Kool aid?

Some people even used the threads that were supposed to be about these poor victimized children to go on and on about their own abuse thus deflecting the attention away from the children entirely and on to themselves.

Cut through all of Glow's smoke and mirrors, all the deception, distraction, and the sleight of hand, and we are left with the pure hatred of women which spits forth in terms such as 'the feminist Kool-aid'.

Glow knows that there are several of us on these threads who have been violently raped when we were children. His only response has been to repeatedly mock and heap insults upon what we have endured. Those of us who have survived such brutality have emerged with a profound empathy for other child victims, and a deep, abiding disgust for those who trivalize the trauma that anyone who has been sexually assaulted experiences.

He doesn't like it when we use the word PEDOPHILE? That figures.:sick:

 

[Native New Yorker]

Thanks for saying that, Montana. I cannot count the times I have checked in here, but have never posted, because most of the time the thread was being hijacked!

Very frustrating, and I am not sure why it happened just on this topic, but I am sure that there must be a reason.

As I did not want to get sucked into the endless maelstrom of debate, I chose to remain silent, but I found it very frustrating .......

 

[Native New Yorker]

And, yes, now I get it! I knew there had to be a reason for the "what is reality"? types of posts......

I wish that this forum had an option that is on another forum I post on...you can just press a button that says " Ignore this poster's posts" and voila, they do not appear on your screen. It is just wonderful for hijacked threads, and then the real discussion can go on.

 

[Glow]

Yawwwnnnn. No disrespect intended for the posters that are sincere and caring but honestly, this thread has been hi-jacked.

Hi Montana~

That sounds "almost" like a passive/aggressive way of saying it has been high jacked by me. IF you have somebody else in mind then my deepest apologies. As you probably noticed, the title of this thread is "The Rest of the Story"

That might lead some to understand that this was a thread about all the ADDITIONAL ramifications surrounding this case. Any and all thoughts are welcome. Facts are MOST appreciated and ranters are tolerated. Free speech and all that........

Thanks for stopping by and yawning though. In the future if you have a thought or a fact that you would like to add, I hope you will share that also.

 

[Glow]

And, yes, now I get it! I knew there had to be a reason for the "what is reality"? types of posts......

I wish that this forum had an option that is on another forum I post on...you can just press a button that says " Ignore this poster's posts" and voila, they do not appear on your screen. It is just wonderful for hijacked threads, and then the real discussion can go on.

I have been told that this forum DOES have that option Native New Yorker. I don't know how to explain how it works though because I have never been in need of it.

I like to hear ALL thoughts - especially those that differ from mine.

I'm sure that someone here can help you find the ignore feature.