The Use of the Shovel

[3doglady]

My 2 cents: JMO

When KC said "Imagine that" she was thinking " Good idea, I may use that if I get backed into a corner." We know that JB and the SA were talking plea deal before Caylee was found. (or at least that was what Geraldo said when JB was on his show) So I'm assuming she was going to claim some type of accident.

When KC said shovel/pool ladder she was still working on that theory. CA as usual had a better excuse for the shovel and had to correct KC. CA wasn't in on JB and KC's discussions so she was not aware of the accident story KC was going with.

Once Caylee was found, the duct tape didn't go with any type of accident and the SA stopped the plea negotiations.

 

[mom2chloe]

If there is any chance it started out an accident, it has been so poorly handled that it no longer fits into that category.

We are examining the reason why KC would behave the way she may have - may be she was happy it happened, or afraid to reveal it to her Mom, or didn't want to bother saving Caylee, or complicated things by not responding immediately and then complicated them some more.

I can picture her doing the motions (duct tape, heart, etc.) ceremoniously after the fact. She seems that void of reality to me.

Tracy said that KC said she used the shovel to take the ladder out from the pool.

CA said the shovel was used to clean up bamboo. Does KC seem like she would drive to Hopespring for no other reason than to clean up bamboo? That is lamer than the ladder story. Plus CA said that because they knew Caylee would trip on it - it was a safety measure. This is such a load of crap as we all know now that Caylee was dead by the 16th. The shovel thing was on the 18th of June.

Let's at least try to base our "opinions" on some concrete information.

I keep saying over and over that I don't really know what the truth is - I wish everyone who does would show me the evidence so I can be a firm believer in EXACTLY what went down too.

Hey Woe! IIRC, long before the Tracy M interview was known to us, Brian B, the A's neighbor, is the one who stated in his interview with LE that KC stated she wanted to borrow the shovel to remove bamboo. I would offer a link but have had no luck as my computer is having issues with pdf files. I will ask hubby for help maybe updating. :crazy:If anyone is interested the interviews can be found in the sticky section. Hope this helps!

 

[LolaMoon08]

Remember she said to her parents when they visited the jail something like "Don't worry I didn't say anything." What was that about? You see there are too many little hints/confusion between her and her parents and Lee. Any weird thing is possible with these people that would be totally alien behavior to most of us. I lump the rest of the family in with KC now based on the way they have behaved too.

I don't know what that was all about... but, I wouldn't put it past Miss Casey Anthony to throw that little statement out there just to cause some kind of confusion. As sloppy as she is at covering her tracks forensically (is that a word?) she is really good at throwing random statements out there that mean next to nothing but could make the average person think it means something.

I have ZERO respect for Cindy, George or Lee Anthony... and never again will fall victim to having sympathy for them (yes, I have in the past) after hearing the interviews of those closest to the case when it first began.

I think there has been a lot of covering up on all of the Anthony's parts... and those they have surrounded themselves around.

I hate that they feel Casey and themselves are more of a victim in all this than precious little Caylee, who lost her life at the hands of her mother.

I am constantly confused by the statements made by Casey and the entire Anthony family and can honestly say that I am happy that evidence provided by the state of Florida will be what convicts Casey because her family is unwilling to hold her responsible for the crime she has committed.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I also think that Cindy, George and Lee know a lot more about what happened. They had a lot of time with Casey when she was out on bond... which we know now, in the first nine days, George blew up at Casey and didn't even speak to her after that. She went back to jail and was bonded out again by someone else.

George's comments about "Not willing to live this lie" or something like that is very disturbing because it seems he has now chosen to do just that. Live that lie!

They are all living that lie because that lie is bringing them money that they didn't have before all this. I can only hope that people will not support the Anthony family (ANY OF THEM) making a dime off of an innocent two-year-old baby being murdered. That includes the Milsteads and the Hoovers, Dominics, Jose's and Michelle Barts of the Anthony saga!

 

[Just Jayla]

I also think that Cindy, George and Lee know a lot more about what happened. They had a lot of time with Casey when she was out on bond... which we know now, in the first nine days, George blew up at Casey and didn't even speak to her after that. She went back to jail and was bonded out again by someone else.

George's comments about "Not willing to live this lie" or something like that is very disturbing because it seems he has now chosen to do just that. Live that lie!

They are all living that lie because that lie is bringing them money that they didn't have before all this. I can only hope that people will not support the Anthony family (ANY OF THEM) making a dime off of an innocent two-year-old baby being murdered. That includes the Milsteads and the Hoovers, Dominics, Jose's and Michelle Barts of the Anthony saga!

Trying to put this together, too-Assuming GA's fits of rage were genuine, and not staged for LP or TM or anyone else to see, he must not have known where Caylee was. However, he did know she was dead, he knew that when he spoke with LE. That's the "lie" he did not want to live anymore.

KC could have been attempting to put the ladder in the pool, to stage a drowning, and dropped it in while lifting it over the side. Uses the shovel to retrieve it and gets wet-Changes her clothes. Then, she gets it set up and returns a clean shovel to neighbor (see link where BB says the shovel was clean, and KC changed her clothes).

Page 1389-1390
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...urner/1/lg/DOC_20080923141949_000_Page_08.htm

The piece that has to be reconciled is the time frame of when CA saw the ladder on the pool-The 17th or the 18th?

I think we can throw away the bamboo story all together, it sounds like a KC style sociopath lie that she immediately came up with for BB (was she going to tell him she needed to stage a drowning? No)

But just in case her parents or LE put together that she was up to something in the pool, she comes up with this new one. I think CA did give KC the "shut-up" look, like TM said, and GA's head shaking may have been towards KC's audacity.

 

[Brattigirle]

Trying to put this together, too-Assuming GA's fits of rage were genuine, and not staged for LP or TM or anyone else to see, he must not have known where Caylee was. However, he did know she was dead, he knew that when he spoke with LE. That's the "lie" he did not want to live anymore.

KC could have been attempting to put the ladder in the pool, to stage a drowning, and dropped it in while lifting it over the side. Uses the shovel to retrieve it and gets wet-Changes her clothes. Then, she gets it set up and returns a clean shovel to neighbor (see link where BB says the shovel was clean, and KC changed her clothes).

Page 1389-1390
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...urner/1/lg/DOC_20080923141949_000_Page_08.htm

The piece that has to be reconciled is the time frame of when CA saw the ladder on the pool-The 17th or the 18th?

I think we can throw away the bamboo story all together, it sounds like a KC style sociopath lie that she immediately came up with for BB (was she going to tell him she needed to stage a drowning? No)

But just in case her parents or LE put together that she was up to something in the pool, she comes up with this new one. I think CA did give KC the "shut-up" look, like TM said, and GA's head shaking may have been towards KC's audacity.

IMO GA did not want to live the lie of the "Leave it to Beaver" family anymore.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Trying to put this together, too-Assuming GA's fits of rage were genuine, and not staged for LP or TM or anyone else to see, he must not have known where Caylee was. However, he did know she was dead, he knew that when he spoke with LE. That's the "lie" he did not want to live anymore.
KC could have been attempting to put the ladder in the pool, to stage a drowning, and dropped it in while lifting it over the side. Uses the shovel to retrieve it and gets wet-Changes her clothes. Then, she gets it set up and returns a clean shovel to neighbor (see link where BB says the shovel was clean, and KC changed her clothes).

Page 1389-1390
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...urner/1/lg/DOC_20080923141949_000_Page_08.htm

The piece that has to be reconciled is the time frame of when CA saw the ladder on the pool-The 17th or the 18th?

I think we can throw away the bamboo story all together, it sounds like a KC style sociopath lie that she immediately came up with for BB (was she going to tell him she needed to stage a drowning? No)

But just in case her parents or LE put together that she was up to something in the pool, she comes up with this new one. I think CA did give KC the "shut-up" look, like TM said, and GA's head shaking may have been towards KC's audacity.

My bolding . . . I have often wondered if we could take all the statements from this case and sift them through a sifter to eliminate all the Anthony statements (so many lies on top of lies) if we might just have a true and clear picture of what really happened. But they have manipulated and tainted and warped so many facts that it's next to impossible to know which end is up. Ladder? Bamboo? Neither?

 

[christee]

BBM
This is difficult to post :yow: but here it goes

IF there was a drowning, maybe the duct tape was in place before being placed in the pool.

Back on topic
She borrowed the shovel for something. What it is, other than to dig I don't know.
IIRC According to BB she did not look like she had worked in the yard, and the shovel was clean was it not?...but that's easy to accomplish..dip it in the pool to clean or rinse it with a hose.

FWIW, a person can drown w/o completely filling their lungs with water. It's called "Dry Drowning" and the effects may not be immediate:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/110157.php


As for the shovel, I find it hard to believe she used it for the pool ladder. I have an 'A' shape ladder for my above-ground pool and the only reason I'd need to fish it out of the water is if someone picked it up and threw it in!

 

[Amanda]

I'm assuming that le would do tests on the shovel to see if there was chlorine, pool chemicals on the shovel..

 

[Amanda]

..and I'm assuming LE would do tests on the shovel to see if soil samples from the "spot" in the A's backyard matches the soil on the shovel. Even though she did barrow it from a neighbor and the soil from the neighbors yard could be the same as in the A's yard, could the A's have a certain type of grass seed and fertilizer at that spot and general area of the yard. Also couldn't they do tests to see if there are traces of bamboo or bamboo "DNA" so to speak on the shovel. I guess we might not know this till trail.. I believe the shovel was used to dig a hole in the back yard to put Caylee in, she chickened out on that spot, dug her up and took her to the woods. Simple as that.

 

[LolaMoon08]

You know what the worst part about any of this is? We will never know exactly what happened! Casey will never talk!

When this case first began I immediately compared Casey to Susan Smith. As awful as Susan Smith is... at least she finally broke down and the families and those who followed the case were given the truth of what happened to them.

I honestly don't think we will ever know... and I don't know if Cindy, George or Lee will ever even want to know what happened because it seems they moved on pretty quickly and went into save Casey at all costs mode.

Sad.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

..and I'm assuming LE would do tests on the shovel to see if soil samples from the "spot" in the A's backyard matches the soil on the shovel. Even though she did barrow it from a neighbor and the soil from the neighbors yard could be the same as in the A's yard, could the A's have a certain type of grass seed and fertilizer at that spot and general area of the yard. Also couldn't they do tests to see if there are traces of bamboo or bamboo "DNA" so to speak on the shovel. I guess we might not know this till trail.. I believe the shovel was used to dig a hole in the back yard to put Caylee in, she chickened out on that spot, dug her up and took her to the woods. Simple as that.

Pretty sure, because it was such a disappointment to me at the time, that the forensics on the shovel came back totally clean.

 

[lawlady84]

Caylee had duct tape that covered her mouth and nose and was placed there pre-decomp. Then a heart shaped sticker was placed onto the duct tape. Certainly not something you would do to a child who accidently drowned. Then KC joined TL for a trip to Blockbuster. Does not sound like an accident to me.....more like a cold blooded killing. Even dogs mourn the death of a loved one. KC has spent this year pointing the finger at all her friends. I bet she even blames AH for leaving that checkbook in her car.

I'm willing to bet SA knows exactly what happened.

BBM. You are so right, I haven't thought of that comparison before. My parents babysat my shih tzu Charlie 5 days a week when he was a puppy, and during that time their 16 year old German Shepherd passed away (who wasn't even that interactive with Charlie - she was an old lady) - and Charlie moped for weeks, constantly snuggling up where Mandy used to lay. We called vets about puppy prozac, but they said just to distract him!

Thinking about that made me sick. My DOG showed more concern for another dog he only knew for a year than this sick woman showed for her daughter.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

BBM. You are so right, I haven't thought of that comparison before. My parents babysat my shih tzu Charlie 5 days a week when he was a puppy, and during that time their 16 year old German Shepherd passed away (who wasn't even that interactive with Charlie - she was an old lady) - and Charlie moped for weeks, constantly snuggling up where Mandy used to lay. We called vets about puppy prozac, but they said just to distract him!

Thinking about that made me sick. My DOG showed more concern for another dog he only knew for a year than this sick woman showed for her daughter.

Yep!! Yep!! Wouldn't this be perfect in a closing argument?

 

[AZlawyer]

I elaborated upon what another poster had posted. If what you say if true, it's worse.

A normal person would rebuttle and say "They are saying that? No, I swear Mom nothing like that happened." I'm telling you Mom (or whoever) someone took Caylee." I'm saying that there has never been elaborative explanations or protests from any of them that make any sense, just that KC didn't/wouldn't do that. What? They expect us to say "if you say so". Doesn't work that way.

We play the telephone game here. "Imagine that" and "surprise, surprise" are different but neither are appropriate responses imo.

Where is the quote from? Is there a link?

I agree that both responses are insanely inappropriate if your child was actually kidnapped.

This was from a jail visit video between CA, GA and KC. I think the final one--was it August 4? There should be a link in the Official Documents thread. I think it was one of the first things CA said during the visit. CA and GA had just walked through a crowd of reporters to get to the jail, and one of them shouted something like "did she drown in the pool?" and George got pi**ed.

 

[momtective]

I agree that both responses are insanely inappropriate if your child was actually kidnapped.

This was from a jail visit video between CA, GA and KC. I think the final one--was it August 4? There should be a link in the Official Documents thread. I think it was one of the first things CA said during the visit. CA and GA had just walked through a crowd of reporters to get to the jail, and one of them shouted something like "did she drown in the pool?" and George got pi**ed.

If it's the one where KC wigs out then it was Aug 14th...this is it 2:08 in KC say's "Surprise, Surprise!" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCpCinUYFwY"]YouTube - The Lost Jail Tape: August 14 Part 1[/ame]

 

[snow_walker]

The shovel being used to move the ladder..if my thought that Caylee's body was wedged beneath or beside the ladder is the truth, then perhaps she needed something like a shovel to pry the ladder up with, to get enough space to loosen the body and remove it.. perhaps she used it to hold the ladder up with for a few minutes while she did that... balancing the shovel on the edge of the pool to hold the ladder up while she got in and removed the body.

 

[christee]

I've seen where they have lessons for little babies but that's more getting the babies used to the water, not being afraid of it and for Mommy and Me time, etc.

My boy started with YMCA swimming lessons at four years old. Caylee was not even three yet and based on what I've seen with them, I doubt she had any organized lessons. Even if she had it would not be reasurrance of her safety especially if she had gotten behind the ladder and became stuck.

It's always good that a child learn to swim. It's a good skill to have but I would never trust a small child in and around the water until they were way beyond kindergarten - maybe eight or nine, even then I'd be watching. They are rough with each other too!

I've taught and coached swimming to babies all the way up to older adults. A child of 3 can learn to dog paddle and float but as far as being able to swim freestyle or other structured stroke, it's not likely. If you throw in the panic factor even a strong beginner can panic and drown, in as little water as 3-6" deep!
I believe I've seen Caylee in photos or video(?) with her water wings on and I think Cindy was in the water with her. If a child is comfortable enough with the water and how well they can swim, they will not want to use the wings anymore.

 

[strach304]

The actual date of when she borrowed the shovel doesn't match up to the date that Caylee died though, does it? I thought she borrowed the shovel on the 18th.

 

[claudicici]

...I posted this on another thread but I think Kc used the shovel story to make cindy feel guilty ,in actuallity I think she borrowed it to bury caylee but got to lazy and left caylee in the trunk...