The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[swedie]

Could someone please explain what difference it makes, whether TLM knew TS or if TLM entered the school or not, as it pertains to MR's guilt.

Derstine has already stated he was there. So, if Derstine can make the jury believe TS was being babysat, it would throw out enough doubt to the jury that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, was a really great guy to protect TLM and help her clean up her horrific crime.

Hopefully, London did not find another 12 people who think the world is flat. (Sue Moss, CA Trial).

MOO

Hi Sharon. Sorry if someone already answered this for you. I'm so far behind as I was attending my grandbabies class trip yesterday and could not follow and today had company all day. Anyhow, Derestine was trying to show TLM as a liar as she stated she was waiting near a telephone pole when she met up with Tori and walked away with her. But according to this woman she said TLM went into the school to get Tori. This would also make it look like TLM knew she was going after Tori in particular over the "supposed" drug debt theory. HTH

Also my friend who attended yesterday sent my an e-mail of her notes and she said the Crown said "so what you noticed and stood out the most was TLM's white puffy coat" and she replied "yep", he then said so there was nothing else which stood out?" The witness said "well just the dark pants, her blue jeans, and dark hair". Carnegie then said that's all you noticed? The woman then responded with "she didn't have any make up on". Then Carnegie replied with, "like a plan Jane?" The witness answered uh huh and Carnegie asked for confirmation as to her answer being "yes" as opposed to uh huh. So yes that's what I had posted yesterday in case some were still scratching their heads from my post yesterday where I mentioned the make up issue. HTH. Weird how the reporters leave out many details. I guess they feel they just need to point out and report the obvious. Finer details get left on the wayside. MOO

I love love love Christie B. Sometimes her wording is awkward but she's very articulate. Old veteran for sure, she doesn't miss a beat. <3 Yay CB!

 

[OhSoCurious]

I concur.....

Her testimony was very important. She did a great job. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

I think so too, but wonder why TLM just didn't spill all the beans. What did she have to lose by doing so.

However, MR is motivated by money, so IMO, I think whatever they were up to involved making a lot of money, but he needed TLM's help either to help pull it off or be a patsy.

I do believe that MR said TS was not young enough. MOO

(RSBM)

I don't believe that it has anything to do with loss. It's about gain. TLM is all about revenge. With her version of the events, she got revenge on TM and JG by murdering sweet Tori ... with the added bonus of pinning a non-existent sexual assault on her philandering "boyfriend". Two birds with one stone. If she admitted to a drug debt motive, the sexual one would pretty much get tossed out the window.

I'm not sure that's how it happened, but it's a theory like any other. Regardless, MTR is guilty of being there and covering up the crime. I have no doubts about that.

MOO MOO MOO

 

[Macright]

Hi Sharon. Sorry if someone already answered this for you. I'm so far behind as I was attending my grandbabies class trip yesterday and could not follow and today had company all day. Anyhow, Derestine was trying to show TLM as a liar as she stated she was waiting near a telephone pole when she met up with Tori and walked away with her. But according to this woman she said TLM went into the school to get Tori. This would also make it look like TLM knew she was going after Tori in particular over the "supposed" drug debt theory. HTH

Also my friend who attended yesterday sent my an e-mail of her notes and she said the Crown said "so what you noticed and stood out the most was TLM's white puffy coat" and she replied "yep", he then said so there was nothing else which stood out?" The witness said "well just the dark pants, her blue jeans, and dark hair". Carnegie then said that's all you noticed? The woman then responded with "she didn't have any make up on". Then Carnegie replied with, "like a plan Jane?" The witness answered uh huh and Carnegie asked for confirmation as to her answer being "yes" as opposed to uh huh. So yes that's what I had posted yesterday in case some were still scratching their heads from my post yesterday where I mentioned the make up issue. HTH. Weird how the reporters leave out many details. I guess they feel they just need to point out and report the obvious. Finer details get left on the wayside. MOO

I love love love Christie B. Sometimes her wording is awkward but she's very articulate. Old veteran for sure, she doesn't miss a beat. <3 Yay CB!

thanks for that info... I still have to disagree with your take on CB but that's okay...JMO

 

[swedie]

It's really odd that in today's raw video with Rodney Stafford, he knew absolutely nothing about this last witness. It was a complete surprise. I thought that LE had been keeping the family informed of most developments in the investigation and a witness seeing the white coated woman enter the school, then later walk up Fyfe with Tori skipping after her would have been big. Clearly, Derstine got this witness from the Crown's disclosure, yet the Crown did not consider putting her on the stand themselves. Why not? Could it be that the witness and LE thought the white coated woman may be Tara? That would be a good reason not to tell the family. Perhaps LE showed the witness a photo of Tara to see if it could be her. If that were the case, then obviously it was a false lead as we learned 3 months later. Something else that mystified me is how the witness could pinpoint the precise times she arrived at the school and then saw the white coated woman.

I've really wondered if this woman was mistaken on her days. Maybe it was another day when TM did pick Tori up from school and then headed to the nursing home to see Papa. Just a guess because the woman also saw no black stripes on the white coat and TLM's coat had obvious black stripes. I know this witness said it was a puffy coat, but I believe after she watched this video umpteen times and hearing about the "white puffy coat" so much on MSM she became confuzzled. It's highly likely then if it was TM who entered the school. If it was, TM could have told DS to go to the nursing home after walking his charges home as they would be there; TM and Tori. And yes the time is very odd. The witness said it was 3:20 and the surveillance doesn't jive with this woman's testimony of time. MOO

 

[Macright]

(RSBM)

I don't believe that it has anything to do with loss. It's about gain. TLM is all about revenge. With her version of the events, she got revenge on TM and JG by murdering sweet Tori ... with the added bonus of pinning a non-existent sexual assault on her philandering "boyfriend". Two birds with one stone. If she admitted to a drug debt motive, the sexual one would pretty much get tossed out the window.

I'm not sure that's how it happened, but it's a theory like any other. Regardless, MTR is guilty of being there and covering up the crime. I have no doubts about that.

MOO MOO MOO

I think most of us agree with your last two sentences....JMO

 

[Ardy]

I think it is worth noting how lucrative the drug trade can be.

If a person obtains a prescription for them, and gets say 3 a day........that is 100 pills.

The street value of those pills is 40 each.

That is 4000 for a bottle of pills that were dispensed free from OHIP.

It is a big money business........but by the looks of things...........

Neither CM........or TLM..........or MR...........were particularly flush with cash.

Somebody was getting rich.................but not them.

Other people are involved in this, and it is highly unlikely they would be stepping forward to reveal themselves to either LE or the defense.

As one story in MSM from the time said............one drug addict was told by his dealer.........a former Woodstock business owner..........that he loved the addicts because they paid for the new convertible in his driveway.

There is a new police force in Woodstock, and I believe it is a lot more professional than the one that existed back in 2009.

They have made tremendous inroads into the drug trade and are deserving of accolades.

The old police force seemed incapable of addressing the problem.

Perhaps because the city council really didn't take the problem seriously.

When you have a city of 35000 people and 300 of them are lined up each morning at the methadone clinic.........you have a big problem.

Imagine London.....a city of 500,000 with 4500 people lined up outside a methadone clinic each day?

JMO..................

 

[swedie]

I really don't get it and IMO the jury is quite likely to feel similar in that so what?? So what if Dersitine could actually prove that this one witness of his is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.. So what?? If even Dersitine were to pull out a golden copy of the school's inside surveillance video that was able to show a close up of TLM's face as she entered the inner sanctum of this elementary school as well as showed her and Tori meeting up on camera in those halls of that elementary school.. AND ALL CAUGHT ON VIDEO AND IN TURN SHOWN TO THE MEMBERS OF THE JURY!!! ... Again I ask.. SO WHAT????

To be completely honest about the situation with TLM and her having chosen Tori as the victim on that fateful day of April 8, 2009.. It has been my opinion that it is much much much more likely that TLM did indeed know of, know who Tori was, knew that Tori was TM's daughter, and may or may not have chosen Tori for a personal vendetta or hatred toward Tara.. Much more likely than any personal vendetta I believe that TLM took Tori for the simple fact that she knew who Tori "belonged to".. IOW it was nothing to do with Tara whatsoever, and nothing to do with Tori whatsoever.. It simply had to do with the fact that Tori was someone/anyone at that school with whom she was familiar with enough that should she encounter Tara or James by chance as she was leaving the school with Tori.. TLM could easily be on the look out for and be able to quickly abort the plan upon her seeing those to whom Tori "belonged to"..

You see it's the one point that actually can be made sense of IMO as to why it was Tori that was chosen on that day.. And IMO It hadn't a damn thing to do with any vendetta(drug, money, jealousy, revenge, etc, etc).. NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANY PERSONAL ISSUE WHATSOEVER BETWEEN TLM AND ANYONE IN TORI'S FAMILY.. But rather much different and sadly much more simple and basic was the reason for TLM having chosen Tori was purely out of necessity in that as she walked with Tori through and off of the school campus she had the benefit of knowing who Tori "belonged to" she could keep her eye out for who Tori "belonged to".. And she could abort if necessary in TLM seeing someone whom Tori "belonged to".. IMO it is that very simple and basic necessity that would greatly benefit TLM.. That is the only reason that Tori was chosen..

For me what made me finally commit(in my minds eye) that TLM did choose Tori for a specific motive was the fact that in my looking at the situation and the circumstance of that very day and removed Tori from the equation and instead plugged in Little girl, Jane Doe into the equation in place of Tori.. Well the picture became IMO crystal clear that by changing that one, tiny factor in the equation that IT DRASTICALLY CHANGED AND EVEN POSSIBLY PREVENTED THE ENIRE PLAN FROM BEING SUCCESSFULLY EXECUTED.. Jmo, tho..

With Little girl, Jane Doe TLM did NOT have that most important advantage that she had with Tori.. With Jane Doe TLM hadn't a damn clue who Jane Doe "belonged to".. Which I'm going to assume that you all understand exactly what it is that I'm saying as well as understand the huge difference of possible outcomes that become available when taking Tori OUT of the equation and replacing her with any other little girl there that day..

In looking at the events that occurred that afternoon in the way above described IMOO it became very apparent to me that TLM absolutely did choose Tori Stafford as to who would be their victim.. The reasons above described became clear to me and yet in a very different manner than how this defense seems to attempt to allude to in that if they somehow can make the jury believe that Tori was specifically chosen by TLM that it somehow equals none or ATLEAST lesser culpability on the part of his client, MR.. And for me Dersitine could not be more dead wrong in that assumption!!!!!

Because in now coming full circle I will again ask, SO WHAT?!?!!
TLM and how TLM went about choosing and/or snatching who"it" would be that April 8th afternoon that she procured for her lover, MR to unleash his evil sexually dysfunctional needs onto.. And then one/both of them coldly, callously, and savagely beat to death.. How TLM went about choosing who she would deliver as the sacrificial lamb to her lover, MR is ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT IRRELEVANT to this case.. More specifically it is irrelevant to MR's guilt/not guilt in this case.. This jury is instructed to decide merely was MR involved in any/all of the heinous atrocities that were committed on this small, precious child.. Both pre and post mortem..

Dersitine can bring it on home with the video itself with TLM's face clear as a bell visible to every single person in that courtroom and show her inside the school with the victim, Tori(and obviously there is no such video).. It is absolutely of no relevancy in speaking of his clients involvement in "ANY" or in "ALL" of it..And that very simply is what this jury is there to determine..

Moo..moo..moo.. Moo.. And MORE MOO!!!!

Great post SO. I like the way you think and it makes perfect sense. It is highly likely but I still feel Tori was a random child as TLM testified to. I think MR and TLM had touched base on the abduction issue sometime during their four month love life, but I think it probably just happened so quickly without much preparation. What I believe happened is TLM stated MR showed up in her driveway that day and said he was going to Guelph. TLM may have told him she had plans to meet up with a friend at the donut shop that afternoon. He knew where he could find her and that he did. MR picked TLM up at the donut shop in the same lot as the Esso gas station. He probably invited her to Guelph and she of course being in love and wanting to spend time with lover boy, she agreed. And this is where the Esso video comes into the picture. We see MR's car going into the lot and exiting very soon after. MR drove to the nursing home parking lot or on the drive toward OSPS and then threw out his dare for TLM to abduct a child. Without much thought or hesitation, and high as a kite, off she went. Everything just played out from there; everything became spontaneous from that moment on at least for TLM. In MR's mind he had wanted to do something like this for so long and and took advantage of the fact his was going out of town for oxys and had found his helper in TLM.

The way I see it was just all spontaneity. That is JMHO though. And you're right, SO WHAT. There are many things I have asked those words to also. Bottom line is, an innocent little eight year old girl was abducted by two sick minded individuals, taken against her will and brutally murdered two hours away from the people who cherished and loved her. MR is no innocent dupe who was clueless as to why Tori was in his car. He's dumb IMHO but not dumb enough to know that taking a child in his car was totally against all the things decent people would do. He was on a nefarious/sexual mission and TLM's was just nefarious. MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

That's exactly how I took her testimony as well. The first interview, she thought it was TM and TM was LE's prime focus at that point. Nothing more was thought about it. After TLM confessed, the witness went back for further questioning. That could have also been what made her think more about TLM walking into the front door of the school. Unfortunately, by then, that no longer matched what was then LE's new theory of what had happened and she was basically ignored. No wonder the poor woman didn't want to testify.

I don't think we know that TM was the prime focus of LE on April 11. That was only day 3 of Tori's disappearance and LE was still trying to identify the woman in the video. Regardless, the witness did not know who the woman was, so all she could say was that she assumed the woman was the child's mother. In which case, when it should have been all fresh in her mind, why would she not say "and I saw the same woman enter the school just a few minutes before I saw her with Tori up the street"?

JMO

 

[swedie]

JMO, bbm, the conflicting stories about the back seat may give jurors pause for thought. JMO ONLY

eta - was there any video released that shows TLM while they were driving around in the car?

Sorry if someone answered, still way back there catching up. In the video of the HD, MR parks in the lot near the convenient store to enter and use the ATM. You can see him getting out on the driver's side and then back in. He then proceeds to drive a bit closer to the HD where TLM gets out of the passenger side and walks to HD. Later it shows her coming out, MR drives closer, popping the trunk, TLM putting purchase in trunk, closing trunk and getting into the passenger side of MR's car. HTH

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19684866.html

 

[swedie]

For me grandmama testimony was the most truthful and honest from this entire case. She was the only one without an ulterior motive.

So LE and expert witnesses were lying? Oh my that is horrible. I didn't think they had an ulterior motive. Did I miss something?

Grandmama's testimony was full of conflicting claims though. Sorry but I fail to see her testimony as truthful as she was reliable. MOO

If Grandmama drove past TLM and Tori, why didn't we see her vehicle in the video. One would think it would have been captured. There are only three vehicles in this video. One belonging to MR heading south and pulling into CCNH, the second one is a green van heading south on Fyfe Ave. and then a quick glimpse of a lighter coloured vehicle at 13:04 but at this point, TLM and Tori are already into the CCNH parking lot out of sight from anyone passing heading North on Fyfe Ave. HTH and MOO.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19684816.html

 

[swedie]

yes, where your eyelashes freeze together in 3 seconds. It's wonderful! MOO

Lol Snoof. Yes some people handle the cold quite differently. I think men who work outdoors in ahem construction adjust very well to all the elements. Men tend not to be so wimpy when it comes to colder temperatures. Heck I've seen men out parading around in shorts in the winter or early spring.

The whole MR being unclothed from the waist down is totally believe. His adrenaline would be high and I'm sure he wanted to hide Tori's body soon then later and then clean himself up. He didn't want to put his pants back on just in case he got blood all over them from himself and possibly from carrying Tori, so it makes sense to me that he was going about cleaning up half naked. MOO

 

[snoofer]

That is a very good point about Tories family.

If MR's family showed up for support, maybe they felt it would be disrespectful to VS family to show up for the trial.

JMO........

agrees, very good point.moo

 

[matou]

I think it is worth noting how lucrative the drug trade can be.

If a person obtains a prescription for them, and gets say 3 a day........that is 100 pills.

The street value of those pills is 40 each.

That is 4000 for a bottle of pills that were dispensed free from OHIP.

It is a big money business

Snipped by me

I know how lucrative the drug business is and when MR picked up the bag of pills off of BA that day, I instantly knew how much cash he could make from his cheap pick up. He also had note in his car asking to leave money for drugs. He was dealing, it was obvious. He was using. The jail informants detailed how many drugs he claimed to need each day. He was calling dates while on his way to the murder scene and back from the murder of Tori to set up a sexual encounter with a gf within 24 hours. There were drugs involved in this crime, no drug debt that I could tell. MR got one of the best drug DEALS ever on cheap drugs that day. He also got the best DEAL from TLM for a little girl for him to rape. Remember:" You know I'm going to f her right?" Why not believe that part of her story? She claimed to kill Tori with the hammer. People will believe that but not this part of her story? Why not? As soon as the arrests were made public, there were media stories out that revealed the INTENT of the crime: SEXUAL. These stories were pulled right away. No one has forgotten about this already, have they? I have been following this story and every minute detail of it from the very first day the news reported TS missing. That included every ridiculous theory and rumour that sparked from there on FB, etc. I chose WS out of other possible places to post and to follow this story. The one and only theory that worked ever was that Tori was taken for sexual purposes. I am confident this will be the determination of the court as well. JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

Sorry if someone answered, still way back there catching up. In the video of the HD, MR parks in the lot near the convenient store to enter and use the ATM. You can see him getting out on the driver's side and then back in. He then proceeds to drive a bit closer to the HD where TLM gets out of the passenger side and walks to HD. Later it shows her coming out, MR drives closer, popping the trunk, TLM putting purchase in trunk, closing trunk and getting into the passenger side of MR's car. HTH

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19684866.html

Thanks. Mywording wasn't great. I meant could TLM be seen inside the car while it was driving around, not while it was parked? I don't recall seeing her in any of the videos in the inside of the car while it was driving. If Tori was sitting up in the car I don't think we would have seen her on video either is what I was thinking about. JMO

 

[giantalkinghead]

if the verdict comes back guilty on all charges this story and all involved will be blown wide open on appeal and we know that there will be an appeal...then the dirt will hit the fan...JMO I said weeks ago that there is a dark cloud hanging over some players in this and I still think that to be true...JMO I bet there are fingernails bitten down to the quick as we speak..JMO

This is along the lines that I have been thinking as well. I wonder if part of the reason there was only one witness for the defence was that they ( the defence ) is trying to make things less muddy for the Appeal and/or in the case of a hung jury... mistrial and therefore retrial. Boggles my mind there was only one witness for the defence...IMO... we still have a way to go to get the truth - and it may not happen during these proceedings ! MOO

 

[myzzy]

i don't agree, if a parent, sister and/or brother truly believes their son or daughter is innocent.. they would support them; it speaks volumes to me that they didn't show up once, not once jmo

I respect your opinion, I just disagree. I can't imagine the mother of the accused in one of Canada's most prolific crimes has to go to work each day & can't attend her sons trial. Maybe she can still follow twitter for updates.

With a mother & a couple of brothers, by now you would think someone would've made an appearance? JMO

there could be 100 reasons why no one from MR side was not present.

Told not to attend
Privacy
moved out of area making it unable to attend
Work does not allow
Opinion of guilt

Those are just a few, and at this time we do not know the reason BUT i will not hold that against friends and family of MR. They do have a life beyond MR and maybe knowing more then we do that no matter what they knew the outcome would be a long time in jail, what he was going to be conviceted of and the negativity that his family and friends would forever have to face for being associated with MR.

I think it is worth noting how lucrative the drug trade can be.

If a person obtains a prescription for them, and gets say 3 a day........that is 100 pills.

The street value of those pills is 40 each.

That is 4000 for a bottle of pills that were dispensed free from OHIP.

It is a big money business........but by the looks of things...........

Neither CM........or TLM..........or MR...........were particularly flush with cash.

Somebody was getting rich.................but not them.

Other people are involved in this, and it is highly unlikely they would be stepping forward to reveal themselves to either LE or the defense.

As one story in MSM from the time said............one drug addict was told by his dealer.........a former Woodstock business owner..........that he loved the addicts because they paid for the new convertible in his driveway.

There is a new police force in Woodstock, and I believe it is a lot more professional than the one that existed back in 2009.

They have made tremendous inroads into the drug trade and are deserving of accolades.

The old police force seemed incapable of addressing the problem.

Perhaps because the city council really didn't take the problem seriously.

When you have a city of 35000 people and 300 of them are lined up each morning at the methadone clinic.........you have a big problem.

Imagine London.....a city of 500,000 with 4500 people lined up outside a methadone clinic each day?

JMO..................

I absolutely HATE HATE driving by the meth clinic when it is in service ( only open certain times) in down town London. there is probably 2 or 3 dozen people standing around the meth clinic and its scary just driving past. I would never ever try and cross the "typical meth head". I would watch my back if I ever crossed one of them

 

[snoofer]

Whatever reason TLM took TS.

I am not buying the sexual desires theory.

There was something else going on that day......IMO.

JMO......

I do agree that it appears not so straightforward.

I remember when TS initially went missing. I am sure many mothers across the country thought as I did; if she was abducted and there is a man involved..it can only mean one thing. TS was abducted for nefarious and or sexual purposes. Meaning rape/possibly other cash related sexual purposes, and that she was murdered after the fruitcake had his way. If it couldn't get any worse it turns out the abductors were also sadistic. Without a doubt, a parent's worst nightmare.

Sadly, as the information pooled in. The worst case scenario presented.

a. a man involved
b. a hammer involved
c. evidence of rape
d. the woman to lead her away
e. TS found with her pants gone, brutally murdered, disposed of in a rock pile in garbage bags

A miracle really, in a case such as this, that the perpetrators were found to be prosecuted let alone TS battered body. Not only were the perpetrators found but

a. law inforcement had evidence, video, blood, semen
b. a confession from one of the participants
c. perpetrators with some strange proclivities
d. a partial confession from defense that one perpetrator was at the scene; because the evidence prooved he was.

IF there were no drug use by any one mentioned in this case. What would you think happened to TS. Drug use and addiction is common. In murders such as this....it IS the guy that lives around the corner...it IS the guy in your community. It is the guy that you may have brushed by at the grocery store or the bar or who carries the crossing guard sign or knows someone you bought drugs from. And as LE will tell you, it is also the drifter, the drug user/seller, unemployed fellow who still lives with mom who lives a secret and malevolent life of fantasy, grandeur, irresponsibility and depravity. These are not my words. They are from the years of profiles done on sadistic rapist child killers. A rare breed, TS suffered a rare and horrendous fate. I trust LE, I trust the crown. MOO

Sadistic. It wasn't enough for these two what was in their environment, their hand, rocks, a piece of wood. These two had to stop and pick up a hammer. A hammer!

No Chris Evans from dateline was not there that day to video tape the two, nor was Christie Blanchford there to take meticulous notes, nor was Swedie in the back seat (lordy wishes she was). I am not sure what type of evidence the nay sayers of the crown are looking for. MOO

 

[Bravo]

Well said Snoofer (applause)

 

[Bravo]

I don't believe there is anything more for us to learn. There are details in every murder case we are just never going to know. I don't believe there is a drug motive. I'm sure LE investigated that thoroughly and especially when they initially thought TM may have been involved. If there was anything there I'm sure the Defense would have been all over that one as a Defense. Many cases we just dont have a clear picture of motive or who did what exactly when. This case is one of them. I feel confident in what the Crown has presented as truth.