The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

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But to my understanding... correct me if I'm wrong here ( now, I know there are those that will leap all over that statement LOL )

But, it is my understanding that TLM would have had access to the Crown's facts through the discovery portion of her own trial. So she could have possibly cooked up some of the her story on the stand against Rafferty to match what the Crown had as evidence. NO ??? MOO

I am not sure how that works, but I think because of her very descriptive statement with the evidence it was put together.

Not sure if they were allowed to ask her questions about certain evidence and her statement.

Good question :)
 
Interesting opinions ! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm sure there will be some people on here that will jump all over you ... LOL but, you are entitled to your own opinion !


LOL. Thats okay, I can take it :) These are just all thoughts in my head.. thats all. I could go on and on and on... like im sure most of us could. :)
 
Apologies for the triplicate post. WS has been freezing for the last few days and won't seem to let me delete the extra copies.
 
Also, TLM had seen numerous counsellors/therapists in the past, and they will frequently tell clients to write down their feelings in journals.

WRT to the text(s?) from MTR to Toocloseforcomfort, i wonder if MTR is found guilty, if those can then be brought into pre-sentencing reports.

I am not sure. I am just wondering why all the women that had these things to say about him were never asked. There must be a reason that is blocked by a publication ban of some sort, or Derstine got it thrown out for some reason????
 
But to my understanding... correct me if I'm wrong here ( now, I know there are those that will leap all over that statement LOL )

But, it is my understanding that TLM would have had access to the Crown's facts through the discovery portion of her own trial. So she could have possibly cooked up some of the her story on the stand against Rafferty to match what the Crown had as evidence. NO ??? MOO

BTW I'm not leaping :)

I think you're right, TLM probably did have access to discovery, but if you listen to her confession on May 19th not much has really changed from then until she was on the stand. (Ok yes yes I know about who wielded the hammer was different) but the events of that day, where they went, the description of the scene, where the shoes were thrown out etc all remains more or less the same, so IMO only I don't think she cooked up some of the story on the stand against MR. Again JMO and no leaping here
 
Yet a piece of fabric from a back seat was found. I would have to go back and check the tweet about the DNA found and the fabric forensics when I get home.

Here are the tweets regarding the DNA on the piece of seat fabric.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply Now showing the small piece of fabric again. Now going over biology tests of the item.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply There was no stain on the material. It was tested anyway.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply There was blood on the fabric portion. Not the foam portion. No semen or saliva found.

AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply The blood was tested, but fell below the usual amount cut off. AM980.ca@AM980_CourtReply DNA was a mix of two people. One was male. No other results could be accurately determined.

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply McLean said the scrap of seat material showed a positive result for blood but not enough to show as a stain

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply DNA tests were performed on the cutout seat material but there wasn't enough DNA to complete the tests

London Free Press@RaffertyLFPReply A followup DNA test on the seat material (fabric upper layer) was a mixture from more than two people, one a male but results inconclusive

HTH
 
If there was anything to that, they would have been supoena'd to the court to testify under oath their involvement in this. There is nothing there. It is another red herring to introduce doubt. TLM met this girl in detention, she did not hang out with her in real life. They lived in different cities, hence the stupid "one up" letters they wrote back and forth. And those letters and that contact was a year before this abduction. Derstine could not produce one other piece of evidence, a facebook post, cell calls between them, to prove that they'd even been in contact since then.

And while we're on the topic of what Derstine didn't introduce, he suggested the conversation that TLM had with her godmother in his cross to her. This was hearsay that he did not back up with proof of context. This is very telling to me. Obviously the godmother is the aunt who also had visitation priviledges with TLM at Genest and probably since her incarceration after her guilty plea. Their conversation was not recorded at Genest if they had it there but it was probably more likely at her current institution. But I'm sure she was interviewed by LE regarding their visit(s) and that interview and the conversation was in the discovery. And as I suspected, the context of that conversation was completely eliminated from Derstine's cross. I absolutely believe that TLM was telling her aunt how horrible she was feeling about what she had done and how horrible she was feeling that she still felt these feelings of rage and could kill again. She also confessed to the dog incident because it had probably always tormented her. She was crying out for help IMO.
If she had been bragging about her deeds to her aunt/godmother, revelling in the fact that she could do this again no problem, then you can bet that Derstine would have called her to the stand to tell the jury just how demented TLM really was.

So I've just given three examples of evidence that Derstine could have provided to back up the theory that this was all TLM. And he didn't. I don't think he is a negligent attorney, but that evidence just does not exist.

MOO

RBBM

IMO, this was not hearsay that needed to be backed up with proof since TLM admitted to it during cross. She agreed to the statement, therefore it's evidence. I don't think the context matters. It's not whether she feels bad about feeling that way, but rather the fact that she does still feel that way and her only regret is that it was a child. Otherwise, she would do it all again.

JMO
 
But to my understanding... correct me if I'm wrong here ( now, I know there are those that will leap all over that statement LOL )

But, it is my understanding that TLM would have had access to the Crown's facts through the discovery portion of her own trial. So she could have possibly cooked up some of the her story on the stand against Rafferty to match what the Crown had as evidence. NO ??? MOO

I believe TLM gave a full statement to Jim Smyth on May 19th, the day MR was arrested, so she didn't use anyone's facts from discovery IMO.
 
What is up with this site the last couple of days??? Its crazy. I cant seem to get on and when I do my post is doubled or tripled.

Anywho glad I am back on I was get WS withdrawal lol
 
I don’t think it was meant to be disrespectful to the family of VS.
I believe that victim services assists the victims family’s finically though trials as not to add finical hardships while MR family may not be in the same position.

Good Point!!!
 
I just wanted to add a bit about the whole issue surrounding a drug debt. Drug dealers are about status. There is no status in kidnapping/murdering a little girl. It is just like in a youth facility (jail). There is not status in beating up a kid with a mental illness or mild/moderate intellectual disability. The other kids would just ask you what you gained out of it and then you would then become a target. Status is gained through beating up/hurting others who are considered tough and have status themselves. This is why I dismiss the drug debt idea, not because it is illogical considering the lifestyles but because it would not have been a means to an end. Say it was a kidnapping to get money out of them for a debt, when they returned TS they would then be targets amongst their drug peer group for taking a little girl. They would not be respected or feared which is all TLM wanted when she was hurting others. However I do believe that this is why TLM's only regret was that she killed a little girl. If she had killed an adult her status would be huge in jail. While these things seem small, stupid and miniscule to us, they are everything in the world to a person who is a lifer. I beleive she wanted to kill someone but someone who would bring her status up in the criminal world not down. JMO
 
Hi All,

First off, thanks to everyone who contributes here. In an effort to make sense of this crime, I’ve voraciously consumed virtually all of the Tori Stafford content created on websleuths. Again, many thanks.

I’m in my mid-thirties, am a male and have two small daughters (both under 5). Like most across Canada, I was aware of Tori’s disappearance, but paid very little attention to the details. My heart broke for Tori’s family, and that’s as far as it went for me. I was confident LE and in time the crown and the defense would take care of the situation and all guilty would receive their punishment and all innocent would be exonerated. My interest in the case would change in March 2012.

It was the week of March 12th where I began seeing snippets of TLM’s testimony and March 14 or 15 when things made an irrevocable turn. While stepping on to my front porch to pick up my Globe and Mail and throw out my complimentary Toronto Star, I stopped and began reading the Star’s cover story: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...-girlfriend-admits-bludgeoning-child-to-death

I finished it on my front porch, then threw up in my garden and promptly threw the paper in the recycle bin. I struggled to get the mental images out of my mind and as a fan of news I found it tormenting to read news of any nature for fear of seeing the names of Michael Rafferty or Terri-Lynne McClintic or something as simple as Woodstock. After 10 days of a self imposed blackout I felt ready to move on and learn more about the case through newspaper columns, twitter and the London Free Press trial minutes. Those details have acted as a source of catharsis for me.

After gradually accepting the complete and utter depravity of the Tori’s death, I felt prepared to follow this case with an open mind. As I mentioned above I paid very little attention to the case earlier and was not aware of any gossip or speculation related to anyone involved in the trial.

When considering the charges of the accused, I simply couldn’t believe they could be true. In my mind I understood the implications of TLM, but could not reconcile them with MR. It simply makes no sense, why would he do it? How could a person of similar age to me be part of an alleged kidnap, rape and murder? How could he be so stupid, did he really think he wouldn’t be caught? However, if he was not involved why did he not come forward after the initial shock and horror dissipated? Failing that, why not help locate the body after his arrest? I understand his right to remain silent, but where’s the desire to clear his name? He’s 28, not 18 or 8, he must know better. How can innocent man stand by, withhold information, allow multiple levels of government to incur huge expenses, prolong the suffering of Tori’s extended family, create stress and panic amongst law enforcement etc…. again, why would he do it, makes no sense.

Well, day by day, witness by witness the crown conclusively implicated MR by consistently corroborating TLM’s testimony. They’ve placed him in the location of the crime and most importantly they have him communicating with TLM AFTER the crime. This to me is key, because communication (verbal and non verbal) is a significant tenet of partnerships and relationships. What possible explanation could there be for MR continuing to speak with TLM after April 8? Fear? C’mon, anyone who puts fear above the life of an innocent 8 year old needs some serious help and IMO should be in jail for cowardice.

As for the defense, they’re telling us TLM listens to rap, is a criminal, microwaved a dog as a child. None of this flattering, but at the same time none of it is relevant to Tori Stafford. Unless the defense theory is that if MR went to the police, Necro, as a member of EOA would put MR in a microwave as payback.

I’m not going to go into detail about the DNA, the backseat, naked but a t-shirt, the details of the kidnap, the hair dye, his dating life etc…

Lost in all this is TLM and the fact she was 18. She was a child herself, one with a drug addiction and a great 8 education. She’s accepted her role and made no excuses. One thing that stands out to me (and I recognize I may be over simplifying things here) is that she demonstrated limited signs of planning to me. She reacted to things, her poor decisions and her violence were typically bred out of frustration. Her mother getting her fired – broken eye for mom, inmate calling her out – stompity stomp, pretty little thing – wham bam…
As for her being a master manipulator, that may be like saying a 3 year old is a master manipulator because they throw fits and their parents let them eat cake and watch movies. Who’s to blame when that child becomes an obese 10 year old who can’t read? The child or the parents? In other words, is the child a manipulator or are the parents simply lazy/disinterested?

End of the day, they each had a chance to change the course of the day, neither did.
MR had the chance to clear his name. He could have helped locate Tori’s body, he could have helped recover Tori’s clothes, the murder weapon etc…..he chose not to.

Their lives – accomplishments or mistakes – prior to April 8th, 2009 are completely irrelevant here. All that matters is that a child died, and eye witness testimony with corroborated evidence puts the two of them at the scene and back along with continued communication after the fact. As the crown suggested, the jury doesn’t have to decide who did what, only that they acted together. I challenge anyone to dispute they acted together based on the evidence in the public domain.

Everything I’ve written above is MY OPINION ONLY. I appreciate you all reading, and I hope everyone receives some level of comfort from the decision handed down from this court.
 
What is up with this site the last couple of days??? Its crazy. I cant seem to get on and when I do my post is doubled or tripled.

Anywho glad I am back on I was get WS withdrawal lol

Hopefully it will be all good tomorrow ;) and remain that way next week when we get the verdict in!
It is such a busy place I am sure it just gets bogged down sometimes. All the cool kids hang out on WS!
 
Hi All,

First off, thanks to everyone who contributes here. In an effort to make sense of this crime, I’ve voraciously consumed virtually all of the Tori Stafford content created on websleuths. Again, many thanks.

I’m in my mid-thirties, am a male and have two small daughters (both under 5). Like most across Canada, I was aware of Tori’s disappearance, but paid very little attention to the details. My heart broke for Tori’s family, and that’s as far as it went for me. I was confident LE and in time the crown and the defense would take care of the situation and all guilty would receive their punishment and all innocent would be exonerated. My interest in the case would change in March 2012.

It was the week of March 12th where I began seeing snippets of TLM’s testimony and March 14 or 15 when things made an irrevocable turn. While stepping on to my front porch to pick up my Globe and Mail and throw out my complimentary Toronto Star, I stopped and began reading the Star’s cover story: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...-girlfriend-admits-bludgeoning-child-to-death

I finished it on my front porch, then threw up in my garden and promptly threw the paper in the recycle bin. I struggled to get the mental images out of my mind and as a fan of news I found it tormenting to read news of any nature for fear of seeing the names of Michael Rafferty or Terri-Lynne McClintic or something as simple as Woodstock. After 10 days of a self imposed blackout I felt ready to move on and learn more about the case through newspaper columns, twitter and the London Free Press trial minutes. Those details have acted as a source of catharsis for me.

After gradually accepting the complete and utter depravity of the Tori’s death, I felt prepared to follow this case with an open mind. As I mentioned above I paid very little attention to the case earlier and was not aware of any gossip or speculation related to anyone involved in the trial.

When considering the charges of the accused, I simply couldn’t believe they could be true. In my mind I understood the implications of TLM, but could not reconcile them with MR. It simply makes no sense, why would he do it? How could a person of similar age to me be part of an alleged kidnap, rape and murder? How could he be so stupid, did he really think he wouldn’t be caught? However, if he was not involved why did he not come forward after the initial shock and horror dissipated? Failing that, why not help locate the body after his arrest? I understand his right to remain silent, but where’s the desire to clear his name? He’s 28, not 18 or 8, he must know better. How can innocent man stand by, withhold information, allow multiple levels of government to incur huge expenses, prolong the suffering of Tori’s extended family, create stress and panic amongst law enforcement etc…. again, why would he do it, makes no sense.

Well, day by day, witness by witness the crown conclusively implicated MR by consistently corroborating TLM’s testimony. They’ve placed him in the location of the crime and most importantly they have him communicating with TLM AFTER the crime. This to me is key, because communication (verbal and non verbal) is a significant tenet of partnerships and relationships. What possible explanation could there be for MR continuing to speak with TLM after April 8? Fear? C’mon, anyone who puts fear above the life of an innocent 8 year old needs some serious help and IMO should be in jail for cowardice.

As for the defense, they’re telling us TLM listens to rap, is a criminal, microwaved a dog as a child. None of this flattering, but at the same time none of it is relevant to Tori Stafford. Unless the defense theory is that if MR went to the police, Necro, as a member of EOA would put MR in a microwave as payback.

I’m not going to go into detail about the DNA, the backseat, naked but a t-shirt, the details of the kidnap, the hair dye, his dating life etc…

Lost in all this is TLM and the fact she was 18. She was a child herself, one with a drug addiction and a great 8 education. She’s accepted her role and made no excuses. One thing that stands out to me (and I recognize I may be over simplifying things here) is that she demonstrated limited signs of planning to me. She reacted to things, her poor decisions and her violence were typically bred out of frustration. Her mother getting her fired – broken eye for mom, inmate calling her out – stompity stomp, pretty little thing – wham bam…
As for her being a master manipulator, that may be like saying a 3 year old is a master manipulator because they throw fits and their parents let them eat cake and watch movies. Who’s to blame when that child becomes an obese 10 year old who can’t read? The child or the parents? In other words, is the child a manipulator or are the parents simply lazy/disinterested?

End of the day, they each had a chance to change the course of the day, neither did.
MR had the chance to clear his name. He could have helped locate Tori’s body, he could have helped recover Tori’s clothes, the murder weapon etc…..he chose not to.

Their lives – accomplishments or mistakes – prior to April 8th, 2009 are completely irrelevant here. All that matters is that a child died, and eye witness testimony with corroborated evidence puts the two of them at the scene and back along with continued communication after the fact. As the crown suggested, the jury doesn’t have to decide who did what, only that they acted together. I challenge anyone to dispute they acted together based on the evidence in the public domain.

Everything I’ve written above is MY OPINION ONLY. I appreciate you all reading, and I hope everyone receives some level of comfort from the decision handed down from this court.

WELCOME!!! And GREAT POST!
 
HoldonTight!
Welcome. What a well articulated post. I did not quote it because it is long, but I appreaciate it. I agree with everything you have posted.
 
I just wanted to add a bit about the whole issue surrounding a drug debt. Drug dealers are about status. There is no status in kidnapping/murdering a little girl. It is just like in a youth facility (jail). There is not status in beating up a kid with a mental illness or mild/moderate intellectual disability. The other kids would just ask you what you gained out of it and then you would then become a target. Status is gained through beating up/hurting others who are considered tough and have status themselves. This is why I dismiss the drug debt idea, not because it is illogical considering the lifestyles but because it would not have been a means to an end. Say it was a kidnapping to get money out of them for a debt, when they returned TS they would then be targets amongst their drug peer group for taking a little girl. They would not be respected or feared which is all TLM wanted when she was hurting others. However I do believe that this is why TLM's only regret was that she killed a little girl. If she had killed an adult her status would be huge in jail. While these things seem small, stupid and miniscule to us, they are everything in the world to a person who is a lifer. I beleive she wanted to kill someone but someone who would bring her status up in the criminal world not down. JMO

I would agree when it was the old school gang mentality, the MOB, HA’s ... but these children gangs do not use adult logic. They are angry and they don’t care who gets hurt. For example the number of innocent people being killed in drive by’s … Violence is key ... women and child are no longer off limited.
 
I would agree when it was the old school gang mentality, the MOB, HA’s ... but these children gangs do not use adult logic. They are angry and they don’t care who gets hurt. For example the number of innocent people being killed in drive by’s … Violence is key ... women and child are no longer off limited.

I disagree, I have experienced time in a youth facility (not as a prisoner) and this is the way these kids roll. You don't earn status by beating up/targeting the weak, the old, the young or females.

I do understand though what you mean when they act within gangs and do not take into consideration those who may be injured while going after a target. Collateral damage at it's worst.
 
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