Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

[Rumpole]

Yes, I agree that she could have died in the house, but it doesn't seem logical to me that KC would move the body from one location to another while she 'considered what to do next'. It's more logical to do the thinking first, and then the moving, so in your scenario I would think she would carry the body straight from the house to the pool. Also I don't think the cadaver dogs had any positive hits inside the house did they? Of course I guess it would all depend on how long the body actually lay in any particular location.

That's a good point. Did the dogs check the house inside? Would have required search warrant and dogs were early on, before arrest? My only point is we should not rule out death inside the house.

 

[Devon]

I just don't subscribe to this fake pool or accidentally drowning theory at all. IIRC, both GA and CA state that they cannot remember which day they found the gate open and the stairs not where they should be. CA postulated this early on thinking that maybe there had been an accident but quickly dismissed it. In GA interviews with LE, he even states that he cannot remember when the pool/gate event happened.
My theory is simple. KC killed her daughter. She put duct on her mouth while she was still alive and put her in the trunk with chloroform. but again JMO

Do you believe Caylee was placed, alive and duct taped, in to the trunk with chloroform between 3 - 4 pm on June 16 (i.e. in broad daylight), which is the TOD that seems to fit most logically with KC's known location/PC activity/cell phone usage etc. (and allegedly is the actual day that the prosecution believes she died, if the latest 'news' is to be believed), or do you think this was done on some other day/time?

 

[MarleneM]

I'm not adamant about the pool having to be involved. I more or less agree with you. I am just trying to account for the bits of "evidence" about the pool. I have said before that KC would have no trouble in explaining and spinning an accident. That is her forte. I don't think it was an accident so her plan A might have been faking an accident. Pool is obvious, but who knows what she might of considered? I think plan B was to bury the body (borrowed spade), but too hard and obvious. Plan C was dump the body.

I agree with your checklist I bolded here Hercule. And I also have problems trying to account for the "bit of evidence about the pool":

Why did CA splurge on approximately $1000 worth of popular brand named outdoor toys for kids aged 2-5, but didn't bother to invest $1000 in buying a gated safety ladder and fence for her family pool knowing as a Florida resident and certainly an RN that pool deaths happen all to often?

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I know. But it seems a tragic lapse in trained and experienced judgment to me.

http://www.abovegroundpoolsafety.com/product.asp?intProdID=5050

 

[Devon]

That's a good point. Did the dogs check the house inside? Would have required search warrant and dogs were early on, before arrest? My only point is we should not rule out death inside the house.

I agree that we can't rule anything out, I'm just trying to work out what makes most sense (at least to me) and what doesn't.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Devon, About the gate latch. Many gates have the latch on the inside of the yard but you can tie twine in the top hole of the latch, drill a small hole through the wood, run the twine to the outside. You pull the twine from the outside and it lifts up the latch and opens the gate. Hopefully this will explain opening and closing from either side of the gate. (unless a lock is on it!)

 

[kiki the parrot]

I can understand why so many people myself included would rather believe it was an accident...
but there comes a point and its coming soon that were all just going to have to face the reality that Caylee's death was not an accident.
She was murdered by her mother.
The point has passed and continues to receed with each new day of information where all these accident scenarios become more and more implausible.
Sadly its not going to benefit anyone to continue to cling to them to the point of Denial.

Nor, sadly, will it benefit anyone to form conclusions, essentially convicting her of murder before hearing at least the totality of evidence presented at trial. Much of what we are seeing "each new day" in the absence of any real new "information" is one part an increasing effort by the prosecution to crank up the pressure on KC to divulge the truth, and one part frenzied media scrambling for any sensationalistic angle for coverage of this incredibly lucrative story. I, like Devon, will willingly (though w sadness) accept once either malice or intent is proven at trial. Until then however, I too must reserve judgment. JMO

I am one of those who still think that Caylee's death could have been an accident, not because I want or need to believe that, nor because I couldn't accept that a mother could murder her own child, but because I have yet to see any evidence that proves it could not have been an accident!

As I have posted in another thread, the latest 'bombshell' article that many members seem to be accepting as final confirmation that KC deliberately murdered Caylee, actually discloses very little that was not already known (or could reasonably be assumed) and certainly does not explain, confirm or validate what it infers.

If I hear or read evidence that convinces me that KC intentionally murdered Caylee, I will have absolutely no problem in accepting it, or in seeing her get the conviction that she would (then) deserve.

Agreed. :bud:

I think the duct tape on her mouth is enough evidence to say it was no accident!

We haven't even heard this much directly from the horse's mouth (from LE or someone other than anonomous "sources"). Let alone what tests have been made public that established tape was used antemortem vs postmortem? JMO

Homicide is quite a loose term. Here is one definition of it, with some underlining by me to emphasise why I think the ME's determination does not rule out an accident:

homicide

The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not. Homicide is considered noncriminal in a number of situations, including deaths as the result of war and putting someone to death by the valid sentence of a court. Killing may also be legally justified or excused, as it is in cases of self-defense or when someone is killed by another person who is attempting to prevent a violent felony. Criminal homicide occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide.

So, a reckless or negligent disregard for Caylee's safety and/or welfare could still be classed as homicide IMO.

:soldier:

But the fact is, she did spin a story ( 2 to be precise), she just didn't include a 'dead' Caylee in them. I personally think this is quite possibly because she just couldn't face the eternal blame, loathing and rejection that would come from CA if she admitted that she had been negligent - she would be the 'bad, irresponsible, useless mother' that I think she was continually being told she was. IMO, regardless of how Caylee actually died, her main fear (even over and above what society will do to her for her crimes) is losing her mother's love and approval. I think this is why she has remained silent about what really happened, and probably will continue to do so.

:clap:

 

[Rumpole]

I agree with your checklist I bolded here Hercule. And I also have problems trying to account for the "bit of evidence about the pool":

Why did CA splurge on approximately $1000 worth of popular brand named outdoor toys for kids aged 2-5, but didn't bother to invest $1000 in buying a gated safety ladder and fence for her family pool knowing as a Florida resident and certainly an RN that pool deaths happen all to often?

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I know. But it seems a tragic lapse in trained and experienced judgment to me.

http://www.abovegroundpoolsafety.com/product.asp?intProdID=5050

Getting a bit OT.
I would have thought that in the Litigious States of America, that apart for the obvious desirability to protect ones own children, there would be a risk of, say, a small child wandering onto a property and drowning? GA's gate would cover that I guess, but from the plan of the property it does not look like it would be difficult to place a simple fence between back corner of sunroom and back boundary fence. There is not something already there by any chance?

 

[Rumpole]

Devon, About the gate latch. Many gates have the latch on the inside of the yard but you can tie twine in the top hole of the latch, drill a small hole through the wood, run the twine to the outside. You pull the twine from the outside and it lifts up the latch and opens the gate. Hopefully this will explain opening and closing from either side of the gate. (unless a lock is on it!)

My guess is gate latch unlikely to have a feature facilitating opening from the outside. Help keep baddies out?

 

[Devon]

Devon, About the gate latch. Many gates have the latch on the inside of the yard but you can tie twine in the top hole of the latch, drill a small hole through the wood, run the twine to the outside. You pull the twine from the outside and it lifts up the latch and opens the gate. Hopefully this will explain opening and closing from either side of the gate. (unless a lock is on it!)

Yes, but this gate gives access from the front of the property (and therefore also from the street) into the backyard, and was also (according to CA/GA) always kept secured for safety reasons because it gave direct access to the otherwise unguarded pool. I just can't imagine that they would make access possible from the outside in these circumstances.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I had been hoping something like this was true, then we heard that it was done intentionally. I wish we knew what made them say that. Anyway, I have a question that may be rather OT. What would happen in the courts if she just said "OK, it was an accident, she drowned in the pool and I just put duct tape on her to make it look like a kidnapping so Mom wouldn't hate me." ?

My close friends lost their seven year old daughter to a brutal battle with cancer...I remember after they got home from the hospital the day she passed sitting around the living room until midnight...and how they were in the days and weeks and months that followed...I know what that kind of grief looks like...I know everyone grieves differently, but I can tell you my friends didn't even think about going to night clubs, stealing friend's credit cards, etc., and even though they are not the type of people to complain (which would be completely understandable in their situation), they didn't have to say how much they missed their little girl...it was so obvious....it still is, 18 mos later...

I could see the stage kidnapping so Mom won't hate me, if it wasn't for her utter lack of emotion about the loss of her child...not one of her friends sensed anything was wrong are you kidding me????? The only way that is, is because for her, nothing was wrong...her world kept turning, and that sickens me, and I don't think any jury will buy any type of accident theory precisely because of her outlandish behavior following said "accident".

 

[kiki the parrot]

Perhaps the cadaver dog hits in the backyard & the elevated chloroform are from Casey taking the decomp-stained spare tire cover mat into the back yard, spraying it with pesticide to kill maggots on her clean-up trip 6/18. I hadn't seen info on chloroform used as a pesticide before...(link below). One of the Google results actually returned and Orlando dealer. :bang:

(respectfully snipped, bold mine) Or perhaps cadaver dogs hit in the backyard because that's where Caylee expired. JMO

I wonder if the "we always remove the ladder" was just bs? Where did they keep it? Sort of thing you might plan to do, but after a while nobody bothers? I have asked before about laws governing fencing private pools. Does Fl have any? (Where I am there are laws, not reccommending it.) With a small child I think I would consider a pool fence?

Below is a portion of Florida's Residential Pool Safety Act. I've posted much more extensive recommendations re pool covers, alarms, far above and beyond these codes limited to pool fencing being discussed here (posted by me ad infinitum elsewhere on this forum). Of particular interest are paragraphs 2, 3 and 5. I have said alllllllllll along that these barriers were conspicuously absent--and what flimsy safeguards A family had were compromised by leaving objects ie pool box adjacent to pool, occasionally forgetting to remove ladder etc. These simply are insufficient--and it could be argued culpably negligent--measures on the part of even responsible homeowners wishing to avoid liability. Certainly though, as parent/grandparents--with, beyond a legal obligation, an implicit relationship duty to provide ordinary care--of a toddler living in the home, it borders on gross and flagrant. If this is in fact what became of Caylee and had it not been covered up, IMO it may not have been solely KC as parent and caregiver at the time of such an accident, but in a very real sense the A's as homeowners, whom LE might have viewed as sharing at least partial responsibility. JMO

515.29 Residential swimming pool barrier requirements.--

(1) A residential swimming pool barrier must have all of the following characteristics:

(a) The barrier must be at least 4 feet high on the outside.

(b) The barrier may not have any gaps, openings, indentations, protrusions, or structural components that could allow a young child to crawl under, squeeze through, or climb over the barrier.

(c) The barrier must be placed around the perimeter of the pool and must be separate from any fence, wall, or other enclosure surrounding the yard unless the fence, wall, or other enclosure or portion thereof is situated on the perimeter of the pool, is being used as part of the barrier, and meets the barrier requirements of this section.

(d) The barrier must be placed sufficiently away from the water's edge to prevent a young child or medically frail elderly person who may have managed to penetrate the barrier from immediately falling into the water.

(2) The structure of an aboveground swimming pool may be used as its barrier or the barrier for such a pool may be mounted on top of its structure; however, such structure or separately mounted barrier must meet all barrier requirements of this section. In addition, any ladder or steps that are the means of access to an aboveground pool must be capable of being secured, locked, or removed to prevent access or must be surrounded by a barrier that meets the requirements of this section.

(3) Gates that provide access to swimming pools must open outward away from the pool and be self-closing and equipped with a self-latching locking device, the release mechanism of which must be located on the pool side of the gate and so placed that it cannot be reached by a young child over the top or through any opening or gap.

(4) A wall of a dwelling may serve as part of the barrier if it does not contain any door or window that opens to provide access to the swimming pool.

(5) A barrier may not be located in a way that allows any permanent structure, equipment, or similar object to be used for climbing the barrier.

http://law.justia.com/florida/codes/TitleXXXIII/ch0515.html

 

[MarleneM]

Getting a bit OT.
I would have thought that in the Litigious States of America, that apart for the obvious desirability to protect ones own children, there would be a risk of, say, a small child wandering onto a property and drowning? GA's gate would cover that I guess, but from the plan of the property it does not look like it would be difficult to place a simple fence between back corner of sunroom and back boundary fence.

There is not something already there by any chance?

I watched the GVS tour of the house before my first response to you. In part II, as CA & GA are leading GVS back into the house through the back patio, you can clearly see that not only was there no railing fence around the pool but the ladder itself was not gated.

Here is a link to the GVS video: http://www.foxnews.com/video/index....ralObject=2963763&referralPlaylistId=playlist

And here is a link to the pool parts I'm referring to that might have prevented any child drowning in the A pool: http://www.abovegroundpoolsafety.com/installation.asp

For $200 you can also install an alarm that sounds in the house when anything disturbs the water in your pool: http://www.poolguard.com/aboveground.asp

 

[Rumpole]

I watched the GVS tour of the house before my first response to you. In part II, as CA & GA are leading GVS back into the house through the back patio, you can clearly see that not only was there no railing fence around the pool but the ladder itself was not gated.

Here is a link to the GVS video: http://www.foxnews.com/video/index....ralObject=2963763&referralPlaylistId=playlist

And here is a link to the pool parts I'm referring to that might have prevented any child drowning in the A pool: http://www.abovegroundpoolsafety.com/installation.asp

For $200 you can also install an alarm that sounds in the house when anything disturbs the water in your pool: http://www.poolguard.com/aboveground.asp

I agree with you. I have watched the Greta tour lots and the pool looks unprotected. Just thought it should be, and perhaps there was something not shown.

 

[MarleneM]

I agree with you. I have watched the Greta tour lots and the pool looks unprotected. Just thought it should be, and perhaps there was something not shown.

Yeah, I know. As a Florida resident the talks of Caylee having drowned accidentally still strikes me as senseless, avoidable and negligent considering the signs that the A's could financially afford to purchase the equipment that might have prevented it.

IMO, playhouses, sandboxes, picnic tables, et al are less of a priority when one decides to own a swimming pool with children in the home.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Regarding the flurry of calls, I doubt they were cries of help. Why? She would've left voice messages. Of course, if she did leave vm's, the A's knew something happened that day and they've been lying ever since. Unless she lied her way out of that, too. "I thought she had drowned. But, no, no, she was okay. I gave her mouth-to-mouth. Really, mom."

(respectfully snipped) Strongly disagree. If a panicked, irresponsible, immature--and for those who refuse to allow me guilt-ridden (?) at least undeniably fear-ridden--person culpable of negligence can not hear a familiar, trusted adult's steadying voice on the other end, they just might not leave voicemail! "Hey Mom, sorry about the big fight last night and stealing all that money from Grandpa and you and everybody so... anyway, I'm freaking out a bit, uh just kinda did the thing you always said I would... I was gonna take Caylee for a swim but sorta spaced out, forgot the ladder was up and I guess Caylee got tired of waiting and must've climbed up and fell in cuz I just now found her in the bottom pool. K well, I'm pretty sure she was in there for, like, at least 20 or 30 minutes cuz I was upoading some stuff to photobucket. She's absolutely lifeless and looks braindead. But anyway, nobody's picking up, I can't get Dad either so I'm too scared to call 911 and it's probably a HUGE waste anyway, so call me back in a few ok? K bye."

 

[eddeva]

i thought the stairs were removed from the pool specifically to stop caylee climbing in and drowning. if this is true then surely for caylee to have climbed into the pool then someone had to put the stairs in place for her to do so, and the moment someone does that is the moment it stops being an accident.

if i'm wrong about this stair removing prceedure and the reason behind it please feel free to correct me. after all - part of being here is to exchange information.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Yeah, I know. As a Florida resident the talks of Caylee having drowned accidentally still strikes me as senseless, avoidable and negligent considering the signs that the A's could financially afford to purchase the equipment that might have prevented it.

IMO, playhouses, sandboxes, picnic tables, et al are less of a priority when one decides to own a swimming pool with children in the home.

N/k. Totally, ridiculously inexcusable. We can bestow and lavish all sorts of tokens of our affection upon a child--but if we fail to heed childproofing 101, to observe the most basic safety precautions and even the laws by practicing these standard, regulation barriers for any small child under any high-risk circumstance (but particularly in FL where these tragedies are well-known and there is much public awareness) to prevent a totally forseeable drowning, this would seem almost the definition of "gross and flagrant" failure to provide "ordinary care." JMO

 

[Forensic fan]

My close friends lost their seven year old daughter to a brutal battle with cancer...I remember after they got home from the hospital the day she passed sitting around the living room until midnight...and how they were in the days and weeks and months that followed...I know what that kind of grief looks like...I know everyone grieves differently, but I can tell you my friends didn't even think about going to night clubs, stealing friend's credit cards, etc., and even though they are not the type of people to complain (which would be completely understandable in their situation), they didn't have to say how much they missed their little girl...it was so obvious....it still is, 18 mos later...

I could see the stage kidnapping so Mom won't hate me, if it wasn't for her utter lack of emotion about the loss of her child...not one of her friends sensed anything was wrong are you kidding me????? The only way that is, is because for her, nothing was wrong...her world kept turning, and that sickens me, and I don't think any jury will buy any type of accident theory precisely because of her outlandish behavior following said "accident".

I am so sorry for your friends' loss, how horribly sad. I don't really believe that Caylee's death was an accident,as much as I wanted it to be. Or I thought maybe it was an accident but she was glad it happened so it didn't bother her? I just wondered what would transpire if she said that or if it is too late for her to say that.

 

[USARDOG]

ecs, I'm buying 99.9% Just the one detail, chloroform... I don't believe it was with a pillow, but with the chloroform... She intended it to look like an accidental drowning, chloroformed her, put her in the pool, drowned her... but something went wrong. I believe she had been planning to kill Caylee for some time... rather, day dreaming about killing Caylee, because as we all know... KC is not capable of making a real plan. The plan included ransom money from C&G but she got so busy sleeping with T, she forgot to do her work, and the whole thing fell apart so she just dumped her in the woods.

 

[BondJamesBond]

...the more I think 'bout it...the more I'm thinking George took the spare tire cover mat out to the backyard and cleaned it there where the dogs hit. He likely used the chloroform pesticide either on the mat and/or in the car due to the maggots. Plenty of time to do this before LE came to pick up the Pontiac.

I just don't see Casey showing the initiative...