Through a Juror's Eyes/What do those who haven't followed the case believe? (Merged)

[joypath]

Where is the information for manner of death? I have always seen it reported that there was no cause or manner of death known. Homicide doesn't mean murder. If you shove someone away from you and they fall and hit their head on something and die that is considered homicide as well. An accidental death is also often ruled a homicide simply because it's caused by something someone else did.

:twocents: Just to clarify: CAUSE of death is the reason why somebody dies, MANNER of death is the how and the third criteria a medical examiner identifies is a TIME of death (if possible and as accurate as possible)

You are absolutely correct in stating that homicide does not always mean murder, homicide is the taking of another person's life (for example...the DP!)

:innocent: Just clarifying as needed. :seeya:

 

[darcedarce]

I think it is also important that we all remember that most if not all of the jury has heard of this story. At least half of the 12 more than likely know a whole lot more than what they told the courts. (not accusing, I personally think it's just reality)

snipped...

I agree, this has been my thought all along that most of them likely know more than they stated. Or perhaps didn't even remember they knew until they're hearing these things again.

 

[chicklet]

:twocents: Just to clarify: CAUSE of death is the reason why somebody dies, MANNER of death is the how and the third criteria a medical examiner identifies is a TIME of death (if possible and as accurate as possible)

You are absolutely correct in stating that homicide does not always mean murder, homicide is the taking of another person's life (for example...the DP!)

:innocent: Just clarifying as needed. :seeya:

There was a recent case I read about where someone died after getting into a mutual fight and was pushed and fell and hit his head. No charges were filed. They ruled his death a homicide but since it was accidental no charges were filed against the person that pushed him. This whole aspect of the case against ICA is why I really don't think there will be a murder conviction. Manslaughter would be a pretty easy sell to the jury I would think, but murder will be a very, very hard sell, especially with the death penalty in play.

 

[Emma Peel]

So... my DH hasn't paid any attention to the case since it broke early on. I made him watch opening arguments on NG Monday...and he seems mildly interest to see how this plays out in court.

He said - immediately after hearing opening arguments abbreviated on NG - that that they actually made sense to him. He'd buy the George molesting Casey all her life story. He said he could certainly believe Casey is so screwed up she would just do what her molestor-father George told her to do. A believable story from the defense, as far as he was concerned.

Then ... I reminded him that (1) George was ex-LE/detective. And (2) Caylee's body was found at the end of the Anthony's street.

And he burst out laughing. He revised his feelings about that opening statement and molestation-as-defense... He said that he could still believe ex-LE George molested Casey.

But he certainly could not believe that an ex-detective would cover-up an accidental drowning and dispose of the body at the end of his street. No way. No how.

****************

And so, with that oxymoronic (pun-intended) opening argument of Baez's about George covering up an accidental drowning ... the DT lost a great deal of credibility with my DH.

However, while the "George hid Caylee's body" storyline is unbelievable for him, he still finds the "Casey was sexually molested by her father" story line ... easily believable.

FWIW.

My next convo with him might be to ask that if he finds that molestation argument believable, would that affect the way he'd assess Casey's guilt in the matter - should the DA's evidence make the clearly believable link to Casey/Caylee/trunk/recovery scene forensics?

 

[1Chump]

BBM: Good Point ! In fact my sister called me a little while ago with the exact same theory !

IF -- A BIG IF -- Caylee "accidentally drowned" in the pool, they would have taken that pool down.


MOO MOO MOO ..

Unless you have experience with someone who is capable of big time denial, it does sound unbelievable.

If Caylee did "accidently drown" taking down the pool would force them to face reality. No pool, no Caylee coming home. By keeping up the pool and Casey being gone, much easier to "believe" that Caylee is alive and with her Mommy.

Same thing with Casey. By not being home, not seeing the pool, Casey can "believe" that Caylee is alive and with Grandma and Grandpa.

Logically it defies logic. However, emotions and logic are not interchangeable. You can know something logically but your emotions tell you something completely different.

 

[beach]

Where is the information for manner of death? I have always seen it reported that there was no cause or manner of death known.

<snipped> It is in the medical examiner's report. (Dr. Jan Garavaglia). We have the doc here somewhere. I will go searching for it and link it for you.

 

[GracieLu]

1 to keep fluids from leaking out and some person who may be super neat and like to keep fumes and or fluids in ,may not of been able to stand the thought of fly entering or may know something about Fly life cycles.

2. If Caylee was also sexually abused by Lee or george ,then of course hidng her body after and accidental drowning would be something someone was motivated to do .

3. Roy kronks g/f worked in the jail Casey was held in , Casey was said to write in codes ,there is a chance though reading the letters of caseys or her papers from her cell ,Kronk was able to get enough info to piece together to get the location.

4. Alot of people who are molested at a young age know its wrong in some ways but dont in others. They make excuses that justify the abuse.
Like maybe if I was ugly it wouldnt happen or I must have done something to make them do it. Or if I let it happen to me it wont happen to someone else.

They also justify things in there mind like , he didnt start abusing me until ths age so he wont touch that person . Or he loves me so he would abuse someone else ,(like the person wouldnt "cheat on them") then they are made to feel special sometimes.

Some childhood sexual victims dont realize they are victims, but they are.
They learn to connect emotionally only in sexual ways .

There are many many reactions victims of sexual abuse have and many many levels of it, one Person may go on to have wonderful a life and not ever let it effect the person they were meant to be ,others deny there is a problem with it , and others remember every single day the horrors they endured.


Not saying I agree with any of the listed things but I was offering answers that we could hear in court.

WOW - #2! This HAS NEVER been implied by the DT but I've been questioning JB's opening statements (as well as laughing). I've wondered why in the heck would GA, ex-LA, hide Caylee's body after a seemingly common event (per JB - drowning). Of course I don't believe this for one sec but it kind of answers my question (in a defense sick lying theory kind of way). OMG I wish ICA, the lying <insert any horrible word/name you want> would tell the truth! My heart breaks for GA every day!

 

[stmarysmead]

At this moment, Casey Anthony is presenting herself to the jury as a victim of incest...so emotionally detached that her child's drowning did not deter her partying. She is presenting herself as a victim of George, Lee, Kronk and to a lesser degree...her Mother. That's the latest re-introduction of the Casey Anthony character...and the jury will soon learn their have been many, and the previous ones have been as false and manipulative as her latest Mythology.

Casey was the perfect girlfriend to Tony, devoted to him, cooking for him etc...except when he left town for a few days and she decided to spend her nights in a previous lover's bed. Casey was devoted when it suited HER needs to be.

Casey was a wonderful friend to Amy, calling and texting...attending to Amy's emotional needs..until she needed some extra money and chose that Best Friend to steal from. Casey was a fabulous friend until her needs superceded the effort.

Casey was a real career girl...with a creative job...texting, rushing to work...dropping Caylee at her Nanny. She had her family and friends convinced that she was quite the successful working Mother...but in reality there was no job, no nanny, no career...nothing.

Casey invents the stories she needs to win a man, make a friend, impress others, placate Mom.

Caylee was coming to the age where she would be a threat to Fantasy Casey. I believe this was a real threat to the real Casey. She so much prefers to be thought of as the Fantasy Casey.

Casey went with the Fake Nanny story..a story no former LE would have involved himself with. Fake Nanny, Fake Job, Fake kidnapping. No, that was NOT George's handiwork.

But the Betrayed by Crazy Nanny storyline...though Casey let it run for three years...was not working for her. So now she is the Abuse Victim...a new story to scam and manipulative this new set of people...the jury.

As the Prosecution reveals her Useful Lies, Her Manipulations...her very excellent Scams...they will have to assess the story they are being told now.

I'm not so worried if they believe a bit of this. At the end...they will NOT want to join the long, long list of those deceived, manipulated and scammed by the lies of Miss Casey Anthony.

 

[beach]

Where is the information for manner of death? I have always seen it reported that there was no cause or manner of death known.

<snipped> It is the medical examiner's report. (Dr. Jan Garavaglia). We have the doc here somewhere. I will go searching for it and link it for you.

Here is the link to Dr. Garavaglia's Report.

I misspoke and had them backwards. She listed Cause of Death as "Homicide by undetermined means". She did not specify manner of death.

 

[tankgirl]

The jurors after the trial will have the opportunity to view ALL the released evidence on the internet on their own thanks to the Florida Sunshine Act. We know they will have the option of talking or not talking to the media.

I'm just wondering given what we know about each individual juror I believe some of them will find the evidence not presented in the trial even more powerful than what was actually presented. I believe there are some really intelligent jurors who will want to know about the evidence that was barely discussed and then denied after many sidebar discussions. If ICA's guilty fraud case is not presented, they will now be able to view it. All the party photos of ICA not permitted can be viewed. Complete text messages can be viewed.

Websleuths will be one of the first sites that will come up in any search engine, Val's Hinky Meter will also be there as well. Once a juror reads any or all of the information contained in our respective forums what do you believe they will think of our opinions and discussions we all have engaged in?

I've been thinking about this too. Hopefully the decision that the jury reaches won't have them slapping their foreheads in dismay once they see the bigger picture.

 

[chicklet]

Here is the link to Dr. Garavaglia's Report.

I misspoke and had them backwards. She listed Cause of Death as "Homicide by undetermined means". She did not specify manner of death.

Thanks, Beach! I will check it out after I get home from the family cookout...my eldest should be picking me up in the next few minutes, so I'll come back and read it later.

 

[joypath]

Here is the link to Dr. Garavaglia's Report.

I misspoke and had them backwards. She listed Cause of Death as "Homicide by undetermined means". She did not specify manner of death.

:twocents: umm respectfully: "MANNER OF DEATH: HOMICIDE" per the report from your link.



:great: AND trust me, you had me ready to grab a few CDC pamphlets and NAME publications!

 

[Bobbarita]

Through a Juror's eyes, are they thinking the sexual abuse allegations are just part of KC's delusional world? If I was sitting in a Juror's seat, this is exactly what I would be thinking.

I agree. If her mouth is moving, she's lying. The fantasy about a job, a "nanny", money, locations, etc. just goes to prove the depth of her pathological deceit. False in one, false in all. There is no selectivity issue here.

 

[beach]

:twocents: umm respectfully: "MANNER OF DEATH: HOMICIDE" per the report from your link.
!

<snipped> Now I am really confused. Read the very bottom of 1st page. Where are you seeing manner of death, joypath? :waitasec:

 

[Wise Old Owl]

<snipped> Now I am really confused. Read the very bottom of 1st page. Where are you seeing manner of death, joypath? :waitasec:

It says both.

At the top it says:

MANNER OF DEATH: HOMICIDE

And at the very bottom it says:

CAUSE OF DEATH: HOMICIDE BY UNDETERMINED MEANS


Manner was homicide
Cause was undetermined

Make sense?

 

[beach]

It says both.

At the top it says:

MANNER OF DEATH: HOMICIDE

And at the very bottom it says:

CAUSE OF DEATH: HOMICIDE BY UNDETERMINED MEANS


Manner was homicide
Cause was undetermined

Make sense?

Thanks Owl! :blowkiss:

I didn't read the whole doc again - just was happy I could find it again! It has been a long time since I've reviewed it.


P.S. I don't want this thread to get derailed and go OT. The topic of this thread is "Through a Juror's eyes...". We should probably bump and link another thread for any in depth discussion about the autopsy report. I just wanted to link it for chicklet who had not seen the final report.

 

[Chili Fries]

I haven't followed the case closely over the years but I have watched or read the transcripts of almost all of the testimony so far. In the last few days I have read the police report describing the investigation of Casey's employment and the fake e-mails but since it's new in my mind I think I can put that aside. So if I were a juror...based on just what the jury has heard, here is what I would think at this point:

- I don't think the prosecution's attempt to show Casey's horribly uncaring behaviour after Caylee disappeared has been fully successful because it's been balanced by witness after witness saying they never saw anything that pointed to Casey being a bad mom. I think the defense strategy of painting Casey as a traumatized abuse victim works for this issue.

- I thought George was lying when questioned about the abuse allegations by the prosecutor. I know we've had discussion about him looking down when answering the question but when it happened live in court my impression was that he was lying. However, it was strange that the defense did not ask him about it during cross-examination. That seriously weakened their abuse claim at this point.

- I would totally dismiss the impound lot employee's testimony about the decomp smell. No credentials for that guy were presented other than him saying he had smelled it before. As for George...I thought his testimony was undermined by him not calling the police. It made him look like he was covering something up.

- The defense team has appeared unprepared and somewhat incompetent. Their opening statement started out OK but got incoherent. As a juror, at this point I would be still waiting and expecting them to back up their scenario.


If I were a juror I would still be far away from making up my mind at this point. Certainly there has not been enough evidence provided by the prosecution so far to find her guilty.

 

[Sterling]

My husband has not followed this case at all. I have followed for 3 years. After JB's opening staement he shocked me by thinking ICA will walk. Now, after watching the trial each day, he has totally changed his opinion and believes ICA is the only person responsible for Caylee's death. He doesn't believe the molestation accusations either.

I firmly believe ICA is a stone cold sociopath. I actually doubted this before, thinking that she just had personality disorders. Would be interesting to see her texting and internet activity on the day the DT claims Caylee died accidentally. Did she freak out for 45 mins or so and then resume uploadling party pics or texting her friends. I don't buy the story for a second.

 

[Sleuthsuthain]

BBM

That one's already been used by Jeffrey MacDonald back in 1970 for his wife and daughters murders. Didn't work for him, he's been in prison a long, long time.

Didn't work for Scott Peterson either; maybe Jose will decide that third times a charm? Considering his "lawyering skills", it would not surprise me if he added this to his "spaghetti on the wall" arsenal.

My :twocents: and opinion

 

[Quiche]

If I were a juror I would certainly understand that the defendant was a perpetual liar, as a matter of fact, a continuous liar. I would not take her word for anything... Liars make people mad-- people like those on her jury. jmo