Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo (Part 2)

[philamena]

A friend dead, an empty bottle of Vodka, cell phone records and pictures, uncooperating with LE and the victims father/family......I'd say the boys are hiding evidence so they can CTA's.

 

[LinasK]

By Tim Reiterman, Steve Chawkins and Carla Hall, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
January 6, 2008SAN FRANCISCO -- It was any zoo's worst nightmare.

Shortly after 5 p.m. on Christmas Day, San Francisco Zoo Director Manuel Mollinedo received a call at home: Tigers are on the loose and somebody may have been hurt."At first I thought it was a practical or sick joke," he recalled in an interview. "But I took it seriously and grabbed my jacket and got in the car and drove to the zoo."

Soon, the gravity of the situation became all too clear. A Siberian tiger had somehow vaulted from her enclosure, fatally mauling 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. and injuring his two friends.

But other circumstances intensified the horror. The escape took place shortly before dark in a park laced with curving paths and thick stands of foliage. And there was no public address system to alert the few patrons meandering through the zoo.

A placid holiday afternoon had turned frightening and chaotic, with officers uncertain of such basic facts as how many tigers were on the loose. By the time order was restored, the entire zoo had been declared a crime scene and the institution had earned the grim distinction of being the first accredited zoo in the United States in which a visitor was killed by an escaped animal.

"It was almost surreal, the tragedy and emotions that overwhelmed me," Mollinedo said. "It boggled my mind, and my staff was shellshocked."

The incident cast a harsh light on the balancing act that challenges zookeepers everywhere: Keep visitors -- who can be unpredictable and dangerous -- close to, yet at a safe distance from wild animals, who can be equally unpredictable and dangerous.

more at link:http://www.latimes.com/news/local/l...ry?page=1&track=ntothtml&coll=la-tot-callocal

 

[LinasK]

Mark Geragos's track record, pretty poor:
Ryder was convicted of shoplifting, Peterson went to Death Row and baseball slugger Barry Bonds' trainer Greg Anderson was unable to avoid jail for contempt. But then again, U.S. Rep. Gary Condit was never charged in connection with the death of his mistress and intern Chandra Levy. Geragos also helped win $37.5 million for victims in the century-old Turkish genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, and prostitution charges were dismissed against James Bond film director Lee Tamahori.

He was also Michael Jackson's lawyer!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/06/MNTJU9FT6.DTL

 

[txsvicki]

I guess the oldest boy can be charged with something if it can be proven that he was taking part or giving the younger boys alcohol or marijuana. That could be one reason not to talk at first. It's really scary to think that the tiger could have been riled up in the future by some little boy in baseball throwing pinecones towards it or maybe even a screaming baby since it was very capable of getting loose.

 

[LinasK]

I guess the oldest boy can be charged with something if it can be proven that he was taking part or giving the younger boys alcohol or marijuana. That could be one reason not to talk at first. It's really scary to think that the tiger could have been riled up in the future by some little boy in baseball throwing pinecones towards it or maybe even a screaming baby since it was very capable of getting loose.

One of the articles said that the big cats were used to screaming, and I kind of doubt a little boy could throw as hard as young men who may have been using sling shots, but yes there is no excuse for the walls to have been as short as they were since 1940 and never updated!

 

[PJs]

do you think that Tigers today can jump higher or climb better then 80 years ago?

I see no reason why the zoo thought they had a problem. Obviously they
did...but who would have imagined!!

 

[LinasK]

do you think that Tigers today can jump higher or climb better then 80 years ago?

I see no reason why the zoo thought they had a problem. Obviously they
did...but who would have imagined!!

No, the walls were inadequate back then. I have been to this zoo more than once and didn't feel safe because the walls on the visitor side are only about 3' high. The zoo should have measured and so should have the accrediting agency. The tiger just didn't have sufficient provocation in the past to escape. These guys really pissed her off and she targeted them. I think they hit her with the objects using sling shots.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Tiger mauling survivors' lawyer is at home in the spotlight

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/07/MNTJU9FT6.DTL&feed=rss.news


A public viewing is scheduled today for the teenage boy killed by a tiger in a Christmas Day attack at the San Francisco Zoo.

The family of Carlos Sousa Jr. says the viewing, in San Jose, will be followed by a funeral tomorrow.

http://www.kolotv.com/news/headlines/13497192.html

 

[Jade]

Originally Posted by kgeaux


And for the "experts" who've been all over tv lately talking about how tigers shun human contact, and will avoid humans at all costs: me thinks they are forgetting about the maneating tigers in India.

This was not a Bengal tiger, this was a Siberian tiger.

Siberian tigers are referred to as “man-eaters” also.


Both are Panthera tigra. Same Genus and species. The Siberian is Panthera tigra altaica - the Bengal [India] Panthera tigra tigra. Just different sub species.


http://www.wildlifesurvival.com/tigerinfo.htm

The Siberian, Manchurian or Amur tiger is the largest of all cats, weighing up to 800 lbs. In the wild, a fearless predator often referred to as a “man-eater”.

Population densities, food gathering habits and production [ex. cattle herding] and habitat destruction through logging may account for more attacks in India than Siberia.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/siberian-tiger.html

Northern forests offer the lowest human density of any tiger habitat, and the most complete ecosystem. The vast woodlands also allow tigers far more room to roam, as Russia's timber industry is currently less extensive than that of many other countries.

 

[Jade]

No, the walls were inadequate back then. I have been to this zoo more than once and didn't feel safe because the walls on the visitor side are only about 3' high. The zoo should have measured and so should have the accrediting agency. The tiger just didn't have sufficient provocation in the past to escape. These guys really pissed her off and she targeted them. I think they hit her with the objects using sling shots.

I have a real problem with keeping a breeding pair in this sort of exhibit in the first place. Tatiana was just reaching full sexual maturity and from what I read had been in the midst of mating and breeding activity. That alone could account for so much of this tragedy.

 

[PJs]

No, the walls were inadequate back then. I have been to this zoo more than once and didn't feel safe because the walls on the visitor side are only about 3' high. The zoo should have measured and so should have the accrediting agency. The tiger just didn't have sufficient provocation in the past to escape. These guys really pissed her off and she targeted them. I think they hit her with the objects using sling shots.

I think your right about the sling shots and them pissing her off but I've been
to that zoo too and never felt in danger.

 

[PJs]

I have a real problem with keeping a breeding pair in this sort of exhibit in the first place. Tatiana was just reaching full sexual maturity and from what I read had been in the midst of mating and breeding activity. That alone could account for so much of this tragedy.

Yes I agree, but then have to ask again....what has changed in the last 80 years?

 

[LinasK]

Something I found funny: In the editorial section of today's paper, a writer said he tested how high his house cats could jump by dangling their favorite toys from the doorway. He suggested measuring just how high tigers can jump. But how??? :laugh: By dangling a steak and yelling, "Here Kitty, Kitty"???

Sorry, but a tiger is not a dophin or killer whale trained to jump high.

 

[txsvicki]

I heard on Nancy Grace tonite that the boys will not be charged with anything connected to the tiger attack, but no more info given. I'm no expert, but know about how high a house cat can jump or climb up, so when compared to a big tiger, twelve and a half feet seems way too low just using comparisons and common sense. The city zoo people knew it, the inspectors knew it, and was probably just a case of it's this way, but it's different at inspection time because we want to save money. They could train the zoo chimpanzees to get out a tape measure and take a measurement.

 

[kgeaux]

It wasn't the police who found the slingshots, it was workers at the hospital, that doesn't mean they didn't exist, only that police didn't know of them. Also the police did say that the tree branch in the moat was from another type of tree across the way that couldn't have fallen there naturally, nor the 9 lb. rock!

So basically, what you are saying is that the police are too stupid to check with the hospital workers?? In an investigation in which they are attempting to discern if the tiger was taunted??

Nope. I'm not buying it. The police said NO slingshots were found. Unless the reporter misquoted the officer, then no slingshots were found. And if you could please point me to an article where the police have acknowleded a tree branch an large rock in the moat, PLEASE DO!!!! :blowkiss: I'm desperately looking for police confirmation of those facts and haven't been able to find any confirmation at all so far. I find articles in which OTHERS say all sorts of things were found in the moat, but I can't find LE confirmation of that anywhere. I'm really needing LE confirmation before I add these things into my working "evidence" pile, simply because so much of what we've read has been proven to be false.

 

[kgeaux]

This was not a Bengal tiger, this was a Siberian tiger.

Siberian tigers are known to be man-eaters. And it's been commonly accepted that once a wild animal tastes human blood, it will then be more likely to attack humans again.....probably has to do with how easy we are to catch and eat rather than how very tasty we are. My point was, and remains, that tiger experts are saying Siberian tigers will walk a mile out of their way to avoid human contact, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

You guys are too kind. I hope I'm not sounding "holier than thou" in this conversation. I have the same visceral reactions that everyone else has.

But something about the reporting on this matter has reminded me how unreliable supposedly "legitimate" news sources have become in this era of Big Corporation domination of media, downsizing of newsrooms, rushing to print without getting a second confirmation and reporting "what was reported" rather than what is true.

I'm convinced the early reports of a "board across the moat" and the tiger climbing up a "dangled leg" came from speculation that Jack Hanna pulled out of his fundament. And he wasn't within a thousand miles of the scene (and almost certainly didn't mean for his words to take on a life of their own)!

Like you, Nova, my visceral reaction is one of dislike for the brothers. But the reporting in this case has been about the worst I've ever seen. And I'm not going to make a decision about what type of activities the brothers and Carlos engaged in based on a "sources said" when so far, nine of ten sources have been wrong.

I figured the boys had been drinking since Carlos didn't want to go to his parents home. Probably would have been caught, and that accounts for the lie to the dad about Carlos being with the brothers. Have the pinecones and twigs found in the moat been confirmed? Those could have come from any number of people or kids throwing things into the moat or trying to cause some noise to get the tigers to come into view. Short of crawling into the enclosure with the tiger, I don't see what drinking or some pot smoking has to do with the fence being way too short and a tiger getting out of a city run establishment and killing a kid.

That is the bottom line. You pegged it perfectly!

I figure it went down this way: They get drunk/high and go to the zoo. Start by taunting the lions by roaring at them, then move on to the tiger enclosure which is unknowingly too short. The jerks think they are invulnerable and taunt the tiger by sling-shotting it with pine cones, sticks, and rocks. Pisses the tiger off royally and for the first-time ever, she escapes and goes after her tormentors.

The police were the ones who reported the pine cones and sticks.

I think it would be near impossible to slingshot a nine inch rock and tree BRANCHES which is what the pinecones and sticks seem to have morfed into at this time. All I can find is a zoo official (think CYA) saying the police are investigating a nine inch rock and some sticks (not branches as some articles have reported, not a nine POUND rock as some articles have said). I can't find police confirmation of that, or any article where the police actually reported pinecones and sticks (which would be vastly different from tree branches and nine inch rocks, anyway!) or any kind of confirmation that if the items ARE in the moat,or they got there by unnatural means, or that they got there that day, or that they got there because the "boys" sling-shotted or threw them there. For all we know, pine cones and sticks have been in that damn moat for three or four months! The nine inch rock may have been in that moat since before Tatiana got to the zoo! And so what if the brothers and Carlos did throw pinecones, etc into the moat? When in God's name did throwing a rock into a moat mean you deserve to have a wild animal climb out of its enclosure and maul or kill you? Vicki is right. The wall was too short....the zoo did not protect its cats or its visitors.

Anway, something is wrong with the reporting: Is it sticks? or branches? Nine INCH rock or nine POUND rock?

 

[Jade]

Yes I agree, but then have to ask again....what has changed in the last 80 years?

A perfect storm? Mated, well nourished, well bred [AZA Species Survival Plan insures a wide gene pool in contrast to some isolated wild Siberian populations] habitation to humans, lioness ferocious nature, dusk [hunting time!] a trio of possibly sloppy drunks exhibiting challenging actions. [Like thrashing around in a wet suit in shark infested waters]. She probably sailed over with room to spare. They are fearless with great reserves of strength and audacity.

But have they housed mated pairs in the past? Older zoos used to exhibit single specimens or maybe a couple of elderly females together. Since the AZA Species Survival Plan more zoos want the status of a breeding pair with the resulting crowd pleasing babies. And visitors feel better if there is a pair even if they wouldn’t live together in the wild.

 

[fundiva]

Siberian tigers are known to be man-eaters. And it's been commonly accepted that once a wild animal tastes human blood, it will then be more likely to attack humans again.....probably has to do with how easy we are to catch and eat rather than how very tasty we are. My point was, and remains, that tiger experts are saying Siberian tigers will walk a mile out of their way to avoid human contact, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.



Like you, Nova, my visceral reaction is one of dislike for the brothers. But the reporting in this case has been about the worst I've ever seen. And I'm not going to make a decision about what type of activities the brothers and Carlos engaged in based on a "sources said" when so far, nine of ten sources have been wrong.



That is the bottom line. You pegged it perfectly!




I think it would be near impossible to slingshot a nine inch rock and tree BRANCHES which is what the pinecones and sticks seem to have morfed into at this time. All I can find is a zoo official (think CYA) saying the police are investigating a nine inch rock and some sticks (not branches as some articles have reported, not a nine POUND rock as some articles have said). I can't find police confirmation of that, or any article where the police actually reported pinecones and sticks (which would be vastly different from tree branches and nine inch rocks, anyway!) or any kind of confirmation that if the items ARE in the moat,or they got there by unnatural means, or that they got there that day, or that they got there because the "boys" sling-shotted or threw them there. For all we know, pine cones and sticks have been in that damn moat for three or four months! The nine inch rock may have been in that moat since before Tatiana got to the zoo! And so what if the brothers and Carlos did throw pinecones, etc into the moat? When in God's name did throwing a rock into a moat mean you deserve to have a wild animal climb out of its enclosure and maul or kill you? Vicki is right. The wall was too short....the zoo did not protect its cats or its visitors.

Anway, something is wrong with the reporting: Is it sticks? or branches? Nine INCH rock or nine POUND rock?

I don't think the rock was there since Tatiana came to the zoo. Zookeepers periodically go into the enclosures when the tigers are in their cages to check out any dangers and pick up things that should not be there. If the rock had been there previously they wouldn't have paid any attention to it in this investigation.

 

[Buzz Mills]

I don't think the rock was there since Tatiana came to the zoo. Zookeepers periodically go into the enclosures when the tigers are in their cages to check out any dangers and pick up things that should not be there. If the rock had been there previously they wouldn't have paid any attention to it in this investigation.

The zookeepers were quick to mention all the stuff they found in the enclosure that weren't there before. It isn't as if they made this stuff up.

The two brothers are hoods.

 

[LinasK]

So basically, what you are saying is that the police are too stupid to check with the hospital workers?? In an investigation in which they are attempting to discern if the tiger was taunted??

Nope. I'm not buying it. The police said NO slingshots were found. Unless the reporter misquoted the officer, then no slingshots were found. And if you could please point me to an article where the police have acknowleded a tree branch an large rock in the moat, PLEASE DO!!!! :blowkiss: I'm desperately looking for police confirmation of those facts and haven't been able to find any confirmation at all so far. I find articles in which OTHERS say all sorts of things were found in the moat, but I can't find LE confirmation of that anywhere. I'm really needing LE confirmation before I add these things into my working "evidence" pile, simply because so much of what we've read has been proven to be false.

I've read so many articles of late, I don't know which one it was in, perhaps Buzz can locate it.