Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo (Part 2)

[southcitymom]

Of course, that leaves the possibility that the brothers tried to call but failed to reach the dead boy's father.

But let's assume they never called. We know they accompanied Sousa as he blew off Christmas dinner and took a jaunt to the zoo. The brothers lied to Sousa's father before the attack. Sousa ended up dead.

They might not be calling their friend's father because they feel really, really bad about what they did that day EVEN IF they did nothing to provoke the tiger.

Avoiding their dead friend's father may not be admirable, but it doesn't necessarily mean they provoked the attack on their friend and themselves.

And I would be very surprised if the brothers' lawyer has NOT told them the dead boy's family will be suing for wrongful death; the Sousas are NOT your friends; don't talk to them.

Exactly!

 

[JBean]

I saw this one and read it - and then I saw another link a day or so later saying the brother's had called Souza's Dad. I remember this because I was going to comment on it, but got distracted and didn't. Still looking for that link.

Again - I don't know if it's true that the brothers called. I just know I read a story saying they called.

IIRC, there was a story saying they called and this article was in rsponse to that article.

 

[JBean]

I don't believe SCM meant "principle" is the most abstract, noble sense. Just that some people have points of view that make them automatically refuse to cooperate.

The distinction between "suspect" and "victim" that you are making isn't automatically clear to people who have a bad history with LE (even if that bad history is their own damn fault).

I think the differences in views of LE was made rather painfully clear during the O.J. criminal trial. While it was absurd to many of us that 40-some police officers would instantly risk their careers by agreeing to frame an innocent celebrity, it was not so absurd to members of the jury.

Not too long afterward, the Rampart scandal made it clear why some residents of inner-city L.A. found the idea of a vast police conspiracy all too reasonable.

Two perfectly reasonable people can draw quite different conclusions if they begin with different assumptions or "givens." At this point, we just don't know what assumptions the brothers brought with them to the zoo that day.

IMO,to refuse to give your name when you have just been attacked by a tiger in San Francisco is a bit of a red flag.

 

[JBean]

Just to clarify, my point is that the men were hiding "something". Whether that something is the fact that they had 6k in parking tickets or that they were taunting a tiger or that they were selling pot in the monkey house I have no idea.Perhaps they thought if they gave their names they would be denied medical help and wanted to hide their identities. I don't know. I am drawing no conclusion as to their part in the tiger attack.
I only believe that they were hiding something.

 

[southcitymom]

IIRC, there was a story saying they called and this article was in rsponse to that article.

Gotcha!

 

[southcitymom]

Just to clarify, my point is that the men were hiding "something". Whether that something is the fact that they had 6k in parking tickets or that they were taunting a tiger or that they were selling pot in the monkey house I have no idea.Perhaps they thought if they gave their names they would be denied medical help and wanted to hide their identities. I don't know. I am drawing no conclusion as to their part in the tiger attack.
I only believe that they were hiding something.

I agree 100% with this - probably several somethings!!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree 100% with this - probably several somethings!!

I agree too.

 

[Buzz Mills]

On Thursday, 782 people visited the zoo, double the 391 who visited on the same day last year.

Emotional reopening at zoo
MANY VISITORS PAY TRIBUTE TO TIGER WHO FATALLY ATTACKED TEEN

http://www.mercurynews.com/lifestyle/ci_7879295

 

[kgeaux]

I can think of many reasons to not talk to the cops about what happened.

But what bothers me is that they wouldn't give their names. Now that is highly suspect of something...I just don't know what.

To me, not giving their names, was an attempt at hiding their guilt re; the situation.

Exactly JBeanya. If I was a juror in this civil case, and heard testimony that they wouldn't provide their names; It's Strike One against the plaintiffs.

What possible reason would there be to not give your name in an incident where you were the victim?

J, what you say is very logical, but I'm sure you'll agree humans don't always react logically. For most of us middle-class types, who enjoy pretty good relations with LE over the course of our lives, I think it's hard to understand that some people have a longstanding hostility toward the police and their first instinct is to be uncooperative.

Whether that hostility is justified is another, very long discussion. But there's no question that it exists in some quarters.

You all make such good points. Although I would not automatically assume that their withholding information meant they were guilty of causing themselves to be mauled by a tiger!

They've been in trouble before, they may well have a hostile attitude toward LE. Indeed, according to some reports, they had a hostile attitude toward the hospital workers, also......of course, after being chased and bitten by a tiger while cafe workers refused to unlock the door to let me in and while police stood off in the distance watching, I might be feeling a little angry and uncooperative myself. I don't know.

I wonder if they were on probation? And maybe not supposed to be drinking? I know we don't know for a fact (yet) that they were drinking that day, but an empty vodka bottle was found in their car. Perhaps if they WERE drinking, that would be grounds for revokation of probation and they were trying to avoid that.

Whatever the cause, I think it's pretty well documented that the brothers have a criminal history. We know they aren't pristine victims. What we don't know yet is if they taunted Tatiana past what the police chief called what any kindergartener might do on any day.

You know what I've been wondering since Jennifer Miller's statement? If they were acting all stupid, roaring and moving around in a boisterous manner, what if one of them fell and hit his head? Would the smell of blood right outside her enclosure have encouraged Tatiana to "go for it?"

 

[Details]

IMO - no excuse, none at all, for withholding anything about their friends identity - which they refused initially to give. He's dying, and when his name isn't known, they cannot call his family to be there. That is inexcusable, inexplicable.

Stupid games or mistrust of the police is no excuse.

 

[LionRun]

IMO - no excuse, none at all, for withholding anything about their friends identity - which they refused initially to give. He's dying, and when his name isn't known, they cannot call his family to be there. That is inexcusable, inexplicable.

Stupid games or mistrust of the police is no excuse.

I agree, Details. When a friend lay dying nothing should have stopped those men from being truthful. No excuse, absolutely none.

Lion

 

[Buzz Mills]

The results of the toxicology tests are pending. I wonder how much alcohol was in their systems, and if anything else was??

Mark Geragos will probably request a Change Of Venue, because HE can't get a fair trial in Northern CA.

 

[Nova]

Just to clarify, my point is that the men were hiding "something". Whether that something is the fact that they had 6k in parking tickets or that they were taunting a tiger or that they were selling pot in the monkey house I have no idea.Perhaps they thought if they gave their names they would be denied medical help and wanted to hide their identities. I don't know. I am drawing no conclusion as to their part in the tiger attack.
I only believe that they were hiding something.

Got it, J. Whatever their motivation, I doubt it was the result of careful logic. Had they been thinking clearly and given their records, they would have known the police would figure how who they are.

 

[southcitymom]

The results of the toxicology tests are pending. I wonder how much alcohol was in their systems, and if anything else was??

Mark Geragos will probably request a Change Of Venue, because HE can't get a fair trial in Northern CA.

I'm sure the tox screens will come back with substances. Was a screen down on Souza's body as well?

I'm also 100% certain Geragos will move for a Change of Venue and he should!

 

[Buzz Mills]

I'm sure the tox screens will come back with substances. Was a screen down on Souza's body as well?

I'm also 100% certain Geragos will move for a Change of Venue and he should!

I'm certain that Sousa's blood was also tested.

 

[Pharlap]

I'm sure the tox screens will come back with substances. Was a screen down on Souza's body as well?

I'm also 100% certain Geragos will move for a Change of Venue and he should!

However this has made world wide attention.:angel:

 

[Nova]

IMO - no excuse, none at all, for withholding anything about their friends identity - which they refused initially to give. He's dying, and when his name isn't known, they cannot call his family to be there. That is inexcusable, inexplicable.

Stupid games or mistrust of the police is no excuse.

"He's dying"? I thought he was dead when the police arrived.

There are parts of this country where the police are not seen as dedicated public servants, but as an occupying army. There are complex reasons for this, most of which are not the fault of police officers themselves.

(This may have nothing to do with this case or the brothers' refusal to give their names, but we are all speculating as to what might have motivated them.)

It's very easy for those of us who live elsewhere to decide what is "excusable" and what is not.

But when the police came to my house looking for a felon who had violated his parole (he had lied and given my address as his; I'd never heard of him), the officers knocked politely at my front door, waited for me to answer, accepted my explanation and apologized for the intrusion.

In neighborhoods where police "knock" with a battering ram, with assault weapons drawn, take down suspects and ask questions later, people may have a very different notion of what is reasonable and excusable.

 

[southcitymom]

However this has made world wide attention.:angel:

Very true - but the farther you can get away from Ground Zero, the more assurance you have of an impartial jury!

 

[LinasK]

Lucky girl you are Linask, with so much to see and do there. Is this the zoo with the famous Aviary?

Off to bed, but I heard Buzz loud and clear and agree. One story I heard is that the guy that died was really trying to protect one of the other two from getting attacked by the tiger. I hadn't heard they were drinking. Or if all 3 knew each other.

I think I have to give kudos to the tiger, a wild animal in a changed environment to where his natural distrust of human beings has been changed by captivity. Kudos might be the wrong word, but it is late. xox

I don't think it's the S.F. Zoo you are thinking of for the Aviary, perhaps Marine World/Africa USA now Six Flags, or perhaps Gilroy/Bonfante Gardens???
The 3 guys were supposedly friends. We don't know if Carlos had been drinking yet, but the police found an open container of Vodka in the brothers car.

 

[Seeker]

Has anyone else heard about the debris (pinecones, etc) found in the tiger enclosure that SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE AND THAT THE 2 SURVIVORS WERE FOUND WITH SLINGSHOTS ON THEM? And an empty bottle of vodka in their vehicle.

Hello? They apparently provoked harassed and attacked Tatianna first...too bad she didn't get them instead of the 17 year old who was too afraid or too drunk to move.

It's no wonder these 2 "survivors" didn't want to say anything. They knew they were 100% guilty and responsible for what happened to their friend and to themselves as well as Tatianna.

MO