Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich chgd w/Murder; Christina Noudga, Accessory

[LadyL]

I hear this a lot but I'm not sure it's "stupid" to dispose of a body on your own property. Murderers do it all the time and often it stays hidden for years, decades even. But there are definitely pros and cons.

Pro: You control the situation, cops need warrant, no need for transport where you run risk of being spotted
Con: You have a lot of explaining to do if you're found out

As for the truck at his mother's house, I don't see as particularly dumb either. She wasn't home and -- assuming he had to get it out of the KW area -- where would have been a better place to put it?

For me what stands out as dumb is buying an incinerator through Millardair and getting a burner phone to avoid detection and then using it for months.

regarding the two parts I bolded - did we know DM's mom wasn't home? I'd forgotten that part if so

and where did the info come from that the incinerator was purchased through MillardAir?

 

[SnooperDuper]

regarding the two parts I bolded - did we know DM's mom wasn't home? I'd forgotten that part if so

and where did the info come from that the incinerator was purchased through MillardAir?

There are two articles on the incinerator details. One was from the Sun and includes unofficial sources. The Sun reported that rumour has it DM bought it.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/police-investigate-incinerators-role-in-tim-bosma-slaying

That differs a bit from the second, which was from the Globe, had sources, and was published later. It gave a different (larger) model number for the incinerator and named the purchaser as a "employee of Millardair".
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rge-in-mysterious-bosma-case/article12757899/

 

[Alethea Dice]

CN already has a charge and I think she is #3 as well. Thus, no need to pursue the lesser accessory to the theft of a motor vehicle, IMHO.



All I can say is DM and LB, sex and drugs, how long before that blows up?



Oh my. Rap lesson. Please observe East Coast rap act, (R)ichard (A)llen (M)ob Squad out of Philadelphia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAqEK38yD8o

Is that beat familiar? It's Bill Withers, "Just the Two of Us", and again that's East Coast.

So now you should watch Drake's latest. Trappy drum machines, heavy synths...this is Southern rap. Sorry about the language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccnAvfLPvE

MS's circle is into Southern rap. The guy that did the video with him is into trap, and MWJ is into crunk and horrorcore, which are all styles of Southern rap that come out of Memphis.

Drake has a momma in Forest Hill and an ex-con, ex-musician father in Memphis. He was first signed by an American Southern rap artist. Now that he's made his millions, he's developing artists in Toronto and this is a style he is bringing forward.

That Drake video had special guest stars from the Three 6 Mafia and if you check out MWJ's promotion of his track "Red Shoes", he claims to be working with the Three 6 Mafia too. The dead guy in MWJ's Facebook is Lord Infamous from the Three 6 Mafia. (The truth is after the talent in the Three 6 Mafia went on to solo careers, the dregs reformed as The Mafia 6ix, and one of the guys that they hired, is working with MWJ).

Anyway, no, wrong kind of rap. East Coast and Southern ain't the same thing.

Southern rap is about lowriders, rims, caddies. No Dodge RAM trucks.



So you think MS has got stones? LOL. Sure, it's unconfirmed that once in a lifetime his mom has to move stones on her property. Wouldn't you want to use a flatbed as described for this, whose bed would not be damaged by the weight of the stones, than a pickup that is going to be dinged all to **** when you throw a pile of stones on the relatively soft truck bed? There is a good reason they were using a float, which can withstand having the weight of construction equipment and similar being set upon it. Not even a bed liner can protect a pickup bed against damage from a load of stones.



Hey, these guys have all the time in the world. It's not like they have jobs.

Oh my is right. I think my life was much better before I heard of crunk and horrorcore rap. (Because of course, I just had to youtube them for samples. :sick: )

 

[Alethea Dice]

[h=1]Likely a year before alleged Bosma killers go to trial: Clairmont[/h]
The Bosma family was there, as they always have been, seated in the first and second rows waiting for what amounts to brief glimpses of the men charged with abducting and murdering Tim.
Millard is looking heavier than he did when he was first arrested a little more than a year ago, and he now has a beard and shaggy hair. As usual, he stood in an orange jumpsuit at the Hamilton-Wentworth Detention Centre, hands folded in front of himself, speaking confidently when spoken to.
Smich, beamed in from Toronto East Detention Centre and also in orange, has not changed much during his months behind bars. Like always, he said little.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...-alleged-bosma-killers-go-to-trial-clairmont/

The reality is it will likely be a year or more before that trial actually happens.

Well, nice to know we're not going to get to the actual trial any faster. That's the same prediction that was made back in November.

It will likely be at least 2015 before the trial for Tim Bosma's accused killers begins.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4206363-bosma-murder-trial-not-until-2015/

 

[Alethea Dice]

regarding the two parts I bolded - did we know DM's mom wasn't home? I'd forgotten that part if so

and where did the info come from that the incinerator was purchased through MillardAir?

The neighbours said that they hadn't seen MB all week on the weekend that the truck was found.

They also noted they hadn't seen Millard's mother all week.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/accused-in-tim-bosma-disappearance-staying-silent-lawyer-says-1.1330722

But she couldn't have been too far away because she was there on the Sunday that the police arrived.

Burns, who has lived at 32 Tinsmith Ct. for about 10 years, has always kept to herself. Neighbours said they ever saw much more than a quick glimpse of her giving them a friendly wave. They haven't seen her at all since Mother's Day weekend.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/2879468-police-still-probing-millard-s-farm/

 

[Alethea Dice]

IMO

The Crown in any case has to present him or her guilty. That is their place in a trial.

Just like the Defense has to present him or her innocent. That is their place.

For all purposes that is their belief.

With all due respect...Saying that the Crown feeling DM and MS are guilty is cause for a unfair trial just doesn't make any sense to me.

I think she may have meant the Attorney General, more so than the Crown. From the Attorney General's website:

Given the stature of the Attorney General's position, any public comment coming from the office would be seen as an attempt to influence the case.

But regardless, although the Crown does present the case on the guilty side, the Crown's actual responsibility is supposed to be to the public and to present the case fairly - not to convict.

An important part of the Crown's - and thus the Attorney General's - responsibility in conducting criminal prosecutions is associated with the responsibility to represent the public interest - which includes not only the community as a whole and the victim, but also the accused. The Crown has a distinct responsibility to the court to present all the credible evidence available.

The responsibility is to present the case fairly - not necessarily to convict. This is a fundamental precept of criminal law, even if it is not a particularly well-understood concept among the general public.

JMO

 

[Juballee]

<rsbm>

You made me Google "can you use handgun ammo in a rifle" and the answer is yes, there are a lot of possibilities there.



WM could have been shot with a handgun and posed with his own long gun, and if the two guns accepted the same kind of ammo, it may not have been immediately apparent that there was any mismatch.

Maybe I've seen too many movies, but wouldn't it be standard procedure to match the rifling on the bullet casing to the weapon in any questionable death by gunshot? Doesn't it seem a little odd (or incompetent) that it wasn't done?

 

[Juballee]

CN already has a charge and I think she is #3 as well. Thus, no need to pursue the lesser accessory to the theft of a motor vehicle, IMHO.



All I can say is DM and LB, sex and drugs, how long before that blows up?



Oh my. Rap lesson. Please observe East Coast rap act, (R)ichard (A)llen (M)ob Squad out of Philadelphia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAqEK38yD8o

Is that beat familiar? It's Bill Withers, "Just the Two of Us", and again that's East Coast.

So now you should watch Drake's latest. Trappy drum machines, heavy synths...this is Southern rap. Sorry about the language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccnAvfLPvE

MS's circle is into Southern rap. The guy that did the video with him is into trap, and MWJ is into crunk and horrorcore, which are all styles of Southern rap that come out of Memphis.

Drake has a momma in Forest Hill and an ex-con, ex-musician father in Memphis. He was first signed by an American Southern rap artist. Now that he's made his millions, he's developing artists in Toronto and this is a style he is bringing forward.

That Drake video had special guest stars from the Three 6 Mafia and if you check out MWJ's promotion of his track "Red Shoes", he claims to be working with the Three 6 Mafia too. The dead guy in MWJ's Facebook is Lord Infamous from the Three 6 Mafia. (The truth is after the talent in the Three 6 Mafia went on to solo careers, the dregs reformed as The Mafia 6ix, and one of the guys that they hired, is working with MWJ).

Anyway, no, wrong kind of rap. East Coast and Southern ain't the same thing.

Southern rap is about lowriders, rims, caddies. No Dodge RAM trucks.



So you think MS has got stones? LOL. Sure, it's unconfirmed that once in a lifetime his mom has to move stones on her property. Wouldn't you want to use a flatbed as described for this, whose bed would not be damaged by the weight of the stones, than a pickup that is going to be dinged all to **** when you throw a pile of stones on the relatively soft truck bed? There is a good reason they were using a float, which can withstand having the weight of construction equipment and similar being set upon it. Not even a bed liner can protect a pickup bed against damage from a load of stones.



Hey, these guys have all the time in the world. It's not like they have jobs.

If there is some sort of a science to determining what type of vehicle a given person is certain to choose to steal, I would like to hear more about it. Judging people by their musical preferences is a slippery slope, in my opinion, but kudos to you for being so knowledgeable about the various rap scenes.

Why do I always imagine rocks rolling off of a flatbed? I think it's humorous to assume someone who is currently accused of not caring about a human life was likely to care about denting the inside of a stolen pickup truck bed.

The conversion of a diesel motor in a non diesel vehicle was generally considered a waste of time and effort by those here with knowledge of such things, if I recall. And I'm not sure if MS had a job, but I am pretty sure DM was still running and or dismantling MillardAir, so to me that doesn't count as being unemployed.

And finally, CN was charged with a crime that happened a few days after the theft, can you please explain why LE would chose to charge her with something for a later date and not bother with crimes that happened on the actual date of the murder? I still don't think she was the third driver, since LE were looking at her as that right from the start, and ruled it out as I recall. In my opinion, I think the third driver will turn out to be MWJ, because I imagine that those head tattoos make for a really blurry, hard to identify photo when seen through a window moving quickly on someone's security camera at a distance. Or videos may show DM was driving it, which would make it hard to also place him in the vehicle with TB at the time of death. But this is all just my opinion only.

 

[Carli]

Yes, I'm sure he will and that may be interesting, but that's not the point. His guilt has already been prejudiced. The AG has presumed his guilt. He cannot have a fair trial.

But please don't knock your knickers over this. I'm not the enemy. Rational argument is not "twisting". If I have a dog in this race, it's the underdog. Always is. As I said. Personality flaws? As I also suggested, let's put this to rest. At this rate this discussion is headed for quasi-torts and sixteenth century precedents and lord knows what else. Please let me extend my sincere hope to mutually and respectfully disagree and carry on.

EDIT: Duh! Meant to type AG. Thanks to Alethea Dice for pointing this out.

 

[Carli]

IMO

The Crown in any case has to present him or her guilty. That is their place in a trial.

Just like the Defense has to present him or her innocent. That is their place.

For all purposes that is their belief.

With all due respect...Saying that the Crown feeling DM and MS are guilty is cause for a unfair trial just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes, you're quite right. I meant to type AG already presumes guilt. Thanks again to Alethea Dice for pointing out my mistake which, given the interdependencies, was an easy error to make. Again, just to review...

An important part of the Crown's - and thus the Attorney General's - responsibility in conducting criminal prosecutions is associated with the responsibility to represent the public interest - which includes not only the community as a whole and the victim, but also the accused. The Crown has a distinct responsibility to the court to present all the credible evidence available.

 

[Carli]

http://www.supernovamfg.com/500.html

So this thing weighs 4500 pounds - not exactly something a person could push around. Do I recall a neighbor saying it had been moved "recently" (circa May last year)? Moved from where? And what equipment was used? Did that little bulldozer play a role in that? Who usually drove it? Were vehicle tracks still remaining? Was incriminating evidence recovered at the incinerator's initial location? Who placed the order on behalf of the company and is there any proof that s/he was acting on the direction of DM? If not DM, then who? How was it delivered and where was it delivered to? Who received it? If was delivered to the hangar, how was it transported to the farm. When and by whom? Has any murder weapon be found? If so, where? Have any instruments used in body disposal been found? If so, where? Was the swamp that is reportedly at the bottom of the property drained for evidence? Oh, so many, niggley little details.

I look forward to their resolution at trial, together with answers to a few hundred additional puzzles, but it appears that may be a long time a-coming, one year predictions notwithstanding. The first Judicial Pre-trial is scheduled for September 9th. I say "first" because I have little doubt that there will be many of these before we ever get to trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/story/1.2711655

 

[Woodland]

I would like to think the AG, the Crown and LE do think the people they have charged in this case are guilty, due to the evidence they have gathered is pointing to their guilt. I would find it an insult to my intelligence and a waste of my contribution to their salaries to think they are knowingly taking innocent people to trial - this one or any trial they collectively take part in.

I will only know during or after the trial if the evidence seems contrived/tainted in some way - seems to me the only people that can make the argument of contrived/tainted evidence before a trial has been privy to disclosure material. Sometimes I do think that is the case here in some posts, or maybe some posts just come across that way - jmo though.

 

[Alethea Dice]

If there is some sort of a science to determining what type of vehicle a given person is certain to choose to steal, I would like to hear more about it. Judging people by their musical preferences is a slippery slope, in my opinion, but kudos to you for being so knowledgeable about the various rap scenes.

Why do I always imagine rocks rolling off of a flatbed? I think it's humorous to assume someone who is currently accused of not caring about a human life was likely to care about denting the inside of a stolen pickup truck bed.

The conversion of a diesel motor in a non diesel vehicle was generally considered a waste of time and effort by those here with knowledge of such things, if I recall. And I'm not sure if MS had a job, but I am pretty sure DM was still running and or dismantling MillardAir, so to me that doesn't count as being unemployed.

And finally, CN was charged with a crime that happened a few days after the theft, can you please explain why LE would chose to charge her with something for a later date and not bother with crimes that happened on the actual date of the murder? I still don't think she was the third driver, since LE were looking at her as that right from the start, and ruled it out as I recall. In my opinion, I think the third driver will turn out to be MWJ, because I imagine that those head tattoos make for a really blurry, hard to identify photo when seen through a window moving quickly on someone's security camera at a distance. Or videos may show DM was driving it, which would make it hard to also place him in the vehicle with TB at the time of death. But this is all just my opinion only.

I really don't know who might have been the driver, and I'm also not sure they would be able to get an identity from the videos. When they first reported that a vehicle had followed them away from TB's, they couldn't even tell what kind of vehicle it was or how many people were in it. They only said it looked like an "SUV type" vehicle.

Police have been unable to identify the vehicle&#8217;s model from the footage.

Police said only that it is an &#8220;SUV-type vehicle.&#8221;

&#8220;When Mr. Bosma&#8217;s vehicle left his residence, there was a second vehicle following,&#8221; Kavanagh said.

&#8220;We do not know at this time how many people were in that second vehicle.&#8221;

http://www.680news.com/2013/05/15/millard-to-face-1st-degree-murder-charge-in-bosmas-death/

JMO

 

[Carli]

Maybe I've seen too many movies, but wouldn't it be standard procedure to match the rifling on the bullet casing to the weapon in any questionable death by gunshot? Doesn't it seem a little odd (or incompetent) that it wasn't done?

Another very good question, imo.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/how-can-bullet-be-idenitied-from-particular-gun.html

 

[Carli]

I would like to think the AG, the Crown and LE do think the people they have charged in this case are guilty, due to the evidence they have gathered is pointing to their guilt. I would find it an insult to my intelligence and a waste of my contribution to their salaries to think they are knowingly taking innocent people to trial - this one or any trial they collectively take part in.

I will only know during or after the trial if the evidence seems contrived/tainted in some way - seems to me the only people that can make the argument of contrived/tainted evidence before a trial has been privy to disclosure material. Sometimes I do think that is the case here in some posts, or maybe some posts just come across that way - jmo though.

Excellent points. Please equally consider though that if one's view is determinedly with the prosecution at this early stage, it could also suggest that the poster must be privy to disclosure materials. Actually, not such a stretch, come to think of it, considering that the AG has been so informed and has come down solidly on the side of the hangmen. OK, the virtual hangmen.

Anyway, on another tack altogether, why exactly DID they go to Brantford on that terrible night? Did they drop someone off there? Pick someone up? Stop to get something important? Brantford isn't exactly near either the hangar or the farm. Hmmm. Now who lives in Brantford that might have anything whatsoever to do with this case, one might ask. Probably nobody? Probably just another one of those eensie questions? Or??? Did they stop for gas in Brantford? If so, where? If so, who was driving? And if so, does that add more clarity to the time frame?

Also, what ever became of the "udder fella" as they say in the Maritimes? You know, that third guy who reportedly arrived at the test drive but said he was going for coffee and would wait for them at the nearby Timmys. That guy seems to have disappeared altogether in the retelling. I'll try to find the link. Questions. Questions. It's your fault, ABro. You asked why anyone might harbour any doubts whatsoever about the investigation into the guilt of the accused. :moo:

Oh, found it. It was an announcement by a friend of TB while he was still missing - and fairly widely published and posted here, too. (Don't know if the link still works. I haven't tested it.)

"2007 Dodge Power Ram 3500 Pickup Truck
Please keep a look out for this truck. Our friend had it up on here
2 nights ago 3 guys came to look at it in ancaster 2 got dropped off
And the other guy said he would be back. Our friend tim bosma took the other
2 guys for a test drive near the fair grounds in ancaster. No one ever came back
Thay was 2 nights ago. Lisence plate 726 7zw. Please call police even
If u find a phone on the ground. Thanks go to the hamilton police services facebook page"


Pasted from <http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9502328>

OK, so that's odd. That link doesn't seem to work but I copied the msg straight from the screen into OneNote (in my pathetic effort to keep some of the details of the then missing person somewhat organized.) Still I'm sure I also saw mention of the Timmy's somewhere. Will keep looking.

Hmm, well it turns out that the msg above was originally posted at kijiji together with a picture of the truck.

http://hamilton.kijiji.ca/c-cars-ve...ower-Ram-3500-Pickup-Truck-W0QQAdIdZ482363749

But that link seems to be gone, too.

 

[Woodland]

Excellent points. Please equally consider though that if one's view is determinedly with the prosecution at this early stage, it could also suggest that the poster must be privy to disclosure materials. Actually, not such a stretch, come to think of it, considering that the AG has been so informed and has come down solidly on the side of the hangmen. OK, the virtual hangmen.

Not a comparable point imo - unless one is posting with knowledge of what the prosecution has for evidence - or knowledge they think they have. A judge or jury is tasked with convicting or not convicting based on evidence presented at trial btw.

How do you and Juballee know that ballistic testing was not done by LE as per post #1094 above? Or is that conjecture with the requisite imo omitted?

 

[hopingforjustice]

Anyway, on another tack altogether, why exactly DID they go to Brantford on that terrible night? Did they drop someone off there? Pick someone up? Stop to get something important? Brantford isn't exactly near either the hangar or the farm. Hmmm. Now who lives in Brantford that might have anything whatsoever to do with this case, one might ask. Probably nobody? Probably just another one of those eensie questions? Or??? Did they stop for gas in Brantford? If so, where? If so, who was driving? And if so, does that add more clarity to the time frame?

BBM

I have stated this before. To travel to the farm via Brantford from TB home is not a stretch in any way. It is actually a fairly direct route. I myself use that route quite often as I prefer back roads to a highway.

 

[Carli]

Excellent points. Please equally consider though that if one's view is determinedly with the prosecution at this early stage, it could also suggest that the poster must be privy to disclosure materials. Actually, not such a stretch, come to think of it, considering that the AG has been so informed and has come down solidly on the side of the hangmen. OK, the virtual hangmen.

Not a comparable point imo - unless one is posting with knowledge of what the prosecution has for evidence - or knowledge they think they have. A judge or jury is tasked with convicting or not convicting based on evidence presented at trial btw.

How do you and Juballee know that ballistic testing was not done by LE as per post #1094 above? Or is that conjecture with the requisite imo omitted?

Goodness, I haven't the slightest notion what police investigators are doing or have done. Juballee raised the issue of bullet rifling which caught my interest so I dug around a bit to find out more and found a rather detailed missive on the subject, so I posted the link for her. It's not my opinion. It's apparently how the forensic testing is done. Perhaps, if you have better information on this interesting subject you would kindly post an additional link? That would be just great. Thanks.

I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest "one" is posting with knowledge of what the prosecution has for evidence. If "I" am the "one" you mean, then please note that my post was in response to a previous poster's quibble in which she suggested that the only way "one" could conclude in advance of a trial, that the prosecution evidence was insufficient is if one had access to discovery materials. I tried to respond, as politely as possible, that the same could equally be said where "one" coming down solidly on the side of the prosecution access to discovery materials. A sort of "touche". But if you want to take another spin around the dance floor, that's fine, too. IMO. But first.... :banghead:

 

[Carli]

BBM

I have stated this before. To travel to the farm via Brantford from TB home is not a stretch in any way. It is actually a fairly direct route. I myself use that route quite often as I prefer back roads to a highway.

After playing with Google maps for awhile, I see what your mean, but I guess it's hard to say what routes were taken without guessing what the DM and co intentions may have been. So, let's agree that the plan was to kill somebody and steal their truck. In which case, we want to head on up the road from TB's res (1230 Trinity Rd, Ancaster) to the airport hangar, tout suite (4881 Fountain St North, Breslau) , but first with a little detour at the farm (2548 Roseville Rd, North Dumfries) to dispose of the body. At the airport they would have loaded the truck inside the trailer transport, to hide it from MillardAir employees until it is driven from the airport to DM's mother's house at 32 Tinsmith Court, Kleinburg a few days later; then either used one of the cars in the hangar or been picked up by someone to drive to the Millard home (5 Maple Gate Court, Etobicoke).

However, reportedly they were also seen in downtown Brantford and a phone was found on Oak Park Rd, outside Brantford.

According to Google maps, the portal to portal trip by the quickest route without traffic and including tolls enroute, would be 230 km (about 3 hours uninterrupted driving time. )

Res to res, NOT including Brantford would be 219 km (about 2 h 45 min uninterrupted driving time.)

Considering that you are driving a stolen vehicle which may also be transporting a dead body, is there any reason why you'd add another 15 minutes on the road?

Ancaster to the farm to the hangar (not including Brantford) is 63.2 km by the shortest route (abt 58 mins uninterrupted driving time.)

Ancaster to Brantford to the farm to the hangar is 73.7 km (abt 1.hr 13 min)

In other words, if as LE has stated TB was killed shortly after leaving his home, so that entire extra 15 minutes was spent driving a stolen vehicle with, quite possibly, their murder victim inside, through an urban environment.

I've no idea what this means, if anything. Just a bit interesting that they'd do such a risky thing without some compelling reason, IMO. IMHO. But then, I don't understand anything about this case. I still can't even figure out how they got to TB's res in the first place. That second vehicle and the third person just seems to vanish then reappear then vanish again, as needed, don't they? At least IMO.

 

[Arnie M]

Carli .... keep in mind they were probably counting on having an hour or two before anyone suspected the truck was stolen , then an hour or two before a police report was made , and the comfort of knowing that police would not act with much vigor .

Their smug "feel safe" plan probably evaporated once the mass publicity and tattoo info hit the airwaves a day or two later

That is when they would have started to sweat and do things like hide the truck at mother's place etc.