Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[Lexiintoronto]

Yeah but didn’t I read that once they got to the surface they had more ways to signal? Anyone else remember reading that? That’s one reason I’ve been pretty sure they did not surface.

I think you’re right, but I don’t have the source of that information.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

LIVE Q&A: Search for missing Titanic tour sub

Five passengers aboard a missing titanic tour sub have less than 24 hours of oxygen supply left as rescuers race to find them. A former Navy diver and a form...

www.youtube.com

 

[ch_13]

The means of sending the messages was, according to this article, text messages. Is there something else that sends texts besides cellular service? GPS doesn't work under water, but apparently, if the mother ship was directly over the submersible, text messages did work. However, articles where the writer has more expertise (IMO) state that the communication was not "back and forth."

Although they are sending and receiving texts they're not using the same sort of communication devices that would be used on land or at the surface. Instead, they use acoustic transmitters that are specifically designed for undersea communications.


This may be of interest...from a very technical article on how communication was done during the record-breaking descent to the Mariana Trench by James Cameron in 2012:

Communications to the Deepest Point on Earth

In March 2012, filmmaker and explorer James Cameron successfully completed his one-man dive to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. The dive was the cent...

www.hydro-international.com

The baud rate for digital underwater communication is not comparable to Ethernet-based LAN or WLAN networking. The underlying mechanism is similar to old-fashioned acoustic couplers where digital data is converted to acoustic signals. Travelling through water, sound waves are compromised by the aforementioned factors, calling for data recovery and forward error correction information to be included in the data stream. This guarding information is used by the receiver for data reconstruction. Besides the slow signal propagation speed in water, the amount of forward error correction information included reduces effective baud rates to less than 4,000bps. A typical trade-off between data reliability and transmission time results in a baud rate of approximately 1,000bps. Most data transfers include readable ASCII-based messages and can be interpreted even when they include corrupted characters. In any case, low transmission speed practically restricts underwater file transfers to files of a couple of kilobytes, which despite their small size are still suitable for underwater tasks.

I believe the Titan would use a similar system although it's not entirely clear if they could do more than just send pings from the sub.

 

[Teche]

I was hoping one of them was a Boy Scout and using Morse code

We were a family vacation on a gulf coast beach last week. My 14 y/o boy scout grandson got up during the night to sit on the balcony. He noticed that a kid was playing with a flashlight and sending a Morse code from one friend in another condo. My grandson woke me up to show me the code with his cell phone flashlight. Once a scout always a scout.

 

[MsMarple]

'We have to remain optimistic'​

The media update is over, but we are going to bring you some more details of what was said.

One important line came from Capt Frederick when he was asked if he was still optimistic.

"We have to remain optimistic and hopeful when we are in a search and rescue case," he replied.

"We are in the middle of the search and rescue case. Sometimes we don't find what we're looking for and you have to carefully consider all of the factors.

"There are a lot of factors you have to consider. After considering all those factors, sometimes you're in a position where you have to make a tough decision. We're not there yet.

"If we continue to search, potentially we could be at that point... And that's a discussion we will have with the families long before I am going to discuss here publicly."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

I sense a turning point in that statement. While I commend the search efforts it seems like hope of rescue is dwindling. Twice the size of Connecticut and two and a half miles deep with a deadline of a day is almost impossible to imagine. Those poor men.

 

[branmuffin]

One thing I've found out regarding shipwrecks are how some are still impacted by tidal action depending on how deep they sit (not a factor with the Titanic) because I wanted to know whether the rhythmic banging may have had something to do with referred tidal action.

Another thing is that many of the pre-WW2 shipwrecks are sometimes salvaged for their steel since anything produced after the atom bomb are slightly radioactive. Modern day steel interferes with scientific and medical equipment that measure radiation.

I would think that most people would prefer that historic sites such as the Titanic and the Lusitania remain as memorials to their dead rather than a tourist site.

 

[BUF]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but hearing how sound travels under the water, is it possible that they can hear sounds in the mini sub? Could searching ships be sending morse code messages to them?

 

[SeesSeas]

Tampa woman who visited Titanic talks about missing sub, training involved

Michelle Turman described her experience

www.baynews9.com

PUBLISHED 7:16 PM ET JUN. 20, 2023
[...]
Tampa resident Michelle Turman has an attachment to the wreck. She grew up learning about the tragedy and eventually visited the wreckage. At age 27, she visited the site in 2000, making her the youngest woman to visit the Titanic.
[...]
She’s following the events unfolding at the Titanic site where a submersible has gone missing with five crew members. She knows people involved in the project and one of the passengers, French explorer P.H. Nargeolet.

“If in fact something has occurred and we don’t see him, I can only imagine he is resting in peace and in no other place that he would rather be,” she said.

She is hopeful that the crew is located.

 

[Gardenista]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but hearing how sound travels under the water, is it possible that they can hear sounds in the mini sub? Could searching ships be sending morse code messages to them?

I've been wondering the same thing

 

[iamshadow21]

I sense a turning point in that statement. While I commend the search efforts it seems like hope of rescue is dwindling. Twice the size of Connecticut and two and a half miles deep with a deadline of a day is almost impossible to imagine. Those poor men.

And add to that this isn't a standard depth rescue. The vessels that seem to be able to do anything this deep are rare, and they're mostly not designed to do anything like rescue. They're mostly for exploration, and most of them are remote controlled, not manned.

The sad truth is, even if they do find the Titan intact, and in time, they might not be able to do anything to help them get back to the surface before it's too late.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

It's not text messaging in the traditional way which is what your post made it sound like from the phrasing used so my bad. A similar system was used on the Deepsea Challenger which has a lot of information about it if you're interested (or anyone else is)

Anyway, as I said in the post the communication system dropped out very frequently from a number of reports and this time it didn't come back for whatever reason - though as I would understand communicating under water is very difficult so may not have been a "warning" of things going wrong necessarily

I'm wondering if the GPS system was somehow connected to the acoustic messaging system though because without the messaging system working the GPS is sort of useless as it's primary purpose seems to be connected to the messaging system rather than part of a safety system from everything I've read?

Yeah - and it's being used that way across many different media outlets. All the early reports just said "GPS doesn't work; they are texting," naturally reporters assumed it meant...regular texting? At any rate, the Scientific American article (I think it came out yesterday) is the only thing I can find that mentions anything other than just "texting." And it's definitely sonar-based, according to the article below (and I trust Scientific American).

Missing Titanic Sub: What Could Have Gone Wrong?

A submersible called Titan has gone missing on a dive to the remains of of the Titanic

www.scientificamerican.com

Yes, the two things were connected. The article above says that the Titan had only receiving ability for texts, with the pings going back up top. The way I picture it now is that the pings went up, were interpreted on the mother ship, who then sent a coordinates message back to the pilot.

All of this required electricity. Pings stop just beneath the 2 hour mark on the descent (as they were nearing the bottom?) I see differing estimates on how long it took on average to get to the bottom, but 2-2.5 hours is the range. Last ping was at about 1:45 hours, IIRC.

Pings were 15 minutes apart. This allowed the mother ship to hover directly above the slow-moving Titan, which is the only way the mother ship could stay in touch with the Titan. If the Titan had gone off in a slightly different direction, the responding texts would not be received. That's what happened in 2021, as I understand it (Titan was missing for 5 hours until the two vessels found each other again - this was not reported as a missing submersible at the time, though).

Now I'm trying to find out more about the mysterious auto-jettisoning mechanisms that were supposed to bring the Titan back to the surface, regardless of whether the pilot was conscious or alive. All of these methods are similar (get rid of the extra weight) but it is suggested in the SciAm article that this could happen without human intervention under certain circumstances (but the article does not claim to know that for sure).

Given how this whole thing went down and the CEO's attitude about innovation and safety, I will be surprised if there was a mechanical button to push to jettison the rusty pipes or whatever they were using this trip - however, there should have been one. And if there was one, then maybe that's why some rumors include the Titan being caught in the wreckage.

IIRC, the banging sounds are coming from near the surface, though - which is really encouraging. I think I'm going to cling to a scenario in which the Titan has gotten itself to the surface - which is why I am now wondering just how they are supposed to contact their rescuers.

There's no mention in any article that I can find of how that's to be done (although, once near the surface, wouldn't an actual cell phone work again? without electricity, it could not have been recharged - if it even exists in the first place). It sure looks like one of the passengers in 2021 had his cell phone with him, though.

I wish someone would ask at a presser what the actual jettison process was supposed to look like. Apparently, submersibles that have such systems are set up to surface after a certain number of hours (usually 12). So it could be possible that the Titan has been near the surface for a couple of days.

IMO.

 

[dalsglen]

Yeah but didn’t I read that once they got to the surface they had more ways to signal? Anyone else remember reading that? That’s one reason I’ve been pretty sure they did not surface.

There was a post earlyish in the last thread that states it was equipped with flares or suchlike and other things that they could use once surfaced. Had a search but can't find the post.

 

[10ofRods]

Gosh I read it in one of the articles posted here, but I’ll have to see if I can find it. I think it said things like a strobe light and some other ways too, but let me go see if I can find it.

Thank you! I too will go search for strobe light (would it be visible during the day??)

 

[BUF]

Yeah but didn’t I read that once they got to the surface they had more ways to signal? Anyone else remember reading that? That’s one reason I’ve been pretty sure they did not surface.

Here it is…but the whole system could have failed…

The Titan has an array of signals, lighting, reflectors and other equipment it can use once on the surface to attract attention.

Missing Titanic submersible: what is the Titan tourist sub and what might have happened to it?

The five-person craft has 96 hours of oxygen on board and can dive to depths of 4km to explore wreckage of the Titanic

www.theguardian.com

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but hearing how sound travels under the water, is it possible that they can hear sounds in the mini sub? Could searching ships be sending morse code messages to them?

I know absolutely nothing about this, but im guessing that the banging can only be heard by sonar and then analysed, and I don't think the submersible is equipped with the capability to pick up sound, so probably not, but as I say, that's a total guess and one instance where I would happily be wrong!.

 

[touch]

although, once near the surface, wouldn't an actual cell phone work again?

It's more than 400 miles from the nearest land. I doubt they'd get normal cell phone service there.

 

[bestill]

Sadly I am expecting the Titan to be the most recent "lost at sea" and will be searched for by the hunters for years and possibly never found. It took 75 years to find the Titanic as large as it was.

 

[ch_13]

I know this is probably a stupid question, but hearing how sound travels under the water, is it possible that they can hear sounds in the mini sub? Could searching ships be sending morse code messages to them?

No, not without specialized equipment.

It works the other way because the searchers have deployed very sensitive listening devices called sonobuoys that pick up faint sounds. They were originally developed to hunt enemy submarines.

Titanic sub search: What are the sonobuoys that picked up underwater noises?

Sonobuoys were first used during the Second World War to detect German U-boats, and they got plenty of use during the Cold War, too, to track nuclear submarines around the world. But now they are also deployed in search and rescue operations, from missing planes to submarines.

news.sky.com

 

[dotr]

Titan sub: What happens next after sounds detected in search

With oxygen supplies dwindling - under 24 hours' worth remains - the next few hours are critical.

www.bbc.com

rbbm
''Deep-sea experts who spoke to the BBC say it is hard to determine what these noises might be without seeing the data, and Rear Adm John Mauger - who is leading the search - has also confirmed the source of them is unknown.

But it is possible they could be short, sharp, relatively high-frequency noises, made from within the sub by hitting a hard object against the end of it.
Frank Owen, from the Submarine Institute of Australia, says he is confident - based on the information available - the sounds are coming from inside the vessel.
"If there was a 30-minute interval, it's very unlikely to be anything but human related," he told the BBC.''

''But Mr Owen says the noises "smack of advice" coming from the fifth man inside - 77-year-old Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a former French navy diver and renowned explorer.
"He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half-hour, you bang like hell for three minutes," Mr Owen said.

Banging on the vessel's hull every half hour is standard naval protocol around the world for stricken vessels aiming to send word of their location to rescuers, Mr Owen told LBC News.
The decision to relocate the search indicates authorities are thinking similarly.
But in previous maritime searches - like those for missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 in 2014, and the Russian submarine Kursk in 2000 - underwater noises were heard too, and yielded no results.
And Rear Adm Mauger has said there are a lot of metal objects at the Titanic site that could have been causing the noises.''

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Sadly I am expecting the Titan to be the most recent "lost at sea" and will be searched for by the hunters for years and possibly never found. It took 75 years to find the Titanic as large as it was.

And look how big the Titanic is compared to this submersible. But at least they know where it entered the water and can calculate possible movement from data that is available.