Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[kccorona]

This may be a stupid question, but if the pressure at the Titanic’s depth is so great, how are things onboard still intact (teacups, mirrors, etc)? Is it only things that are subject to a pressure differential (i.e. an enclosed space such as the submersible) that are at risk of an implosion?

I had the same question until @Interested_But_Confused shared this excellent and informative post yesterday. Made it all so much clearer-

Post in thread 'Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2'
Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

This may be a stupid question, but if the pressure at the Titanic’s depth is so great, how are things onboard still intact (teacups, mirrors, etc)? Is it only things that are subject to a pressure differential (i.e. an enclosed space such as the submersible) that are at risk of an implosion?

Exactly. When something falls from the surface to the sea floor and is subjected to a gradual increase in pressure, anything compressible will become smaller but anything incompressible will be largely unchanged.

It's the sudden increase in pressure that causes a destructive implosion.

 

[LaineyJ]

EXCLUSIVE: Tycoon gave up seats on Titanic sub for father and son

Jay Bloom (pictured with his son Sean) has shared texts between him and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush showing he was offered a 'last minute price' of $150,000 - $100,000 below the usual price.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I have to wonder if the dad didn’t have his own concerns - he could have gone without his son if he wanted to. Unless it was primarily for the son or as a father/son experience?

I don’t know if this is the correct term since they weren’t actually on site, but I imagine there’s some type of survivors guilt going on. It’s obviously not his or his sons fault, imo the CEO was going to make sure those seats were filled no matter what, especially seeing as he was lowering the price. Is it because he wanted the money or because he was so excited and wanted as many people as possible to experience it? Don’t think we’ll ever know. Seeing as he was on board, we know he truly believed in what he’d created.

I still feel sort of shocked that this happened. I had no idea people did stuff like this — not as tourists, I mean. So, so sad. I would never do something like this if given the opportunity, but I can definitely understand doing something adventurous and having a false sense of security/safety because it’d been done before.

 

[Snail-Overlord]

This may be a stupid question, but if the pressure at the Titanic’s depth is so great, how are things onboard still intact (teacups, mirrors, etc)? Is it only things that are subject to a pressure differential (i.e. an enclosed space such as the submersible) that are at risk of an implosion?

Am not a scientist but I believe it’s because the submersible is depressurized to match what is closer to the pressure above water. So it’s using a lot of force pushing back against the force of the surrounding pressure. My understanding is that the implosion happens when the outside force of the water overcomes the force that’s depressurizing the sub

Edit: autocorrect

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Wow. So the community pretty much knew right away.

I think it’s okay that the family didn’t know though. It’s sometimes easier to get adjusted to tragedy when you have periods of hope.

I think the families probably did know, maybe not 100% confirmed, but at the very least were prepared for this by the relevant people.

As much as we all expressed hopes for a miracle here at WS, we all pretty much conceded from the get go that the sub, and those 5 lives, were lost.

I would hope at least,that the authorities involved and OceanGate itself were responsible enough to inform the families that their loved ones weren't coming home, but that they had a responsibility to treat it as a rescue mission until they had confirmation of the implosion. JMO.

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes. The Titanic was very very broken when it sank, and the front half, at least, full of water, which equalised the pressure as it sank. The stern may be more damaged because it could have had air pockets still inside it when it, too, went beneath the waves, and those pockets would have caused implosions in the structure as it sank deeper and the external pressure gradually increased. Tl;dr, the Titanic was in no way sealed, so it didn't suffer the catastrophic implosion the Titan did.

A good thing to look up... there is a photograph out there of wine bottles in the debris field. The champagne bottle's cork is perfectly intact - presumably because of the shape of the cork (flaring out at the top) and the fact that the bottle was designed to handle pressure differences. The other wine bottle next to it (not champagne) has its (straight sided) cork swimming deep within it, pushed inside by the external pressure. Both bottles are completely intact and unbroken, but the pressure of the depths has acted on them differently because of their design.

MOO

EDIT: arg, sorry, this was a reply to @Pitsleuth . My bad, didn't quote properly.

 

[fred&edna]

Yes. The Titanic was very very broken when it sank, and the front half, at least, full of water, which equalised the pressure as it sank. The stern may be more damaged because it could have had air pockets still inside it when it, too, went beneath the waves, and those pockets would have caused implosions in the structure as it sank deeper and the external pressure gradually increased. Tl;dr, the Titanic was in no way sealed, so it didn't suffer the catastrophic implosion the Titan did.

A good thing to look up... there is a photograph out there of wine bottles in the debris field. The champagne bottle's cork is perfectly intact - presumably because of the shape of the cork (flaring out at the top) and the fact that the bottle was designed to handle pressure differences. The other wine bottle next to it (not champagne) has its (straight sided) cork swimming deep within it, pushed inside by the external pressure. Both bottles are completely intact and unbroken, but the pressure of the depths has acted on them differently because of their design.

MOO

EDIT: arg, sorry, this was a reply to @Pitsleuth . My bad, didn't quote properly.

I really liked this Titanic video and we hear from Nargeolet several times. And, learn about the living bacteria in the rusticles, etc. Amazing how they used undersea photos to put it together. ETA: The found and identified the owner of a pocket watch, they found a notebook (the writing was still legible).

 

[Rolypolyoly]

She apparently hasn’t been in touch with her brother in years. I’m taking this with a grain of salt. I don’t think it’s likely the CEO or Nargeolet would have let a terrified 19 year old on that vessel. Because they’d be stuck with him for 8-10 hours and that could be bad for everyone.

I agree. I also think it's very unlikely that a father, especially one as close to his son as this none was said to be, would have let his son get on that sub. I'm sure he was nervous, they probably all were, even the ones who had done it before, but I don't believe he was terrified and trying to appease his father, and I think the sister is doing them both a huge disservice with her comments. JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

Waivers may not shield OceanGate from lawsuits - legal experts​

Liability waivers signed by the five men on board the Titan may not shield OceanGate from potential lawsuits by their families, US legal experts tell Reuters news agency.

"If there were aspects of the design or construction of this vessel that were kept from the passengers or it was knowingly operated despite information that it was not suitable for this dive, that would absolutely go against the validity of the waiver," personal injury lawyer and maritime law expert Matthew Shaffer says.

Joseph Low, a personal injury lawyer from California, says: "There are so many different examples of what families might still have claims for despite the waivers, but until we know the cause we can't determine whether the waivers apply."

David Pogue, a reporter from CBS News, the BBC's partner in the US, made the trip with OceanGate last year and reported that the waiver he signed mentioned the possibility of death three times on the first page.

OceanGate could argue it was not grossly negligent and that the waivers apply because they fully described the inherent dangers of the dive, Reuters reports.

The degree of any potential negligence and how that might impact the applicability of the waivers will depend on the causes of the disaster, which are still under investigation.

Neither the BBC nor Reuters has seen the legal waivers the passengers were asked to agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

I would agree with this. Typically, waivers are very effective. But not always. And in this case I don't think they will protect the company. You have to waive known risks. Did these passengers fully know that the sub was not certified or fully tested? Who knows. There may be information out there to answer that one way or the other. But I really think it is likely irrelevant. Ocean Gate will probably quickly file for bankruptcy. I doubt there is much in the way of actual assets. This particular sub is destroyed, I think there was another, is that correct? But has little value other than parts. There are probably some operating accounts and some equipment, but I doubt that is worth much. Hopefully some insurance but those limits will be miniscule related to the claims of the deceased. Maybe there are other entities that could be reached or individuals. Stockton Rush's personal assets could be reached perhaps. But also keep in mind there are likely other creditors, people or businesses owed money in the regular course. Regardless, Ocean Gate is finished. I wonder how many people it employed.

 

[Hoss569]

I agree. I also think it's very unlikely that a father, especially one as close to his son as this none was said to be, would have let his son get on that sub. I'm sure he was nervous, they probably all were, even the ones who had done it before, but I don't believe he was terrified and trying to appease his father, and I think the sister is doing them both a huge disservice with her comments. JMO

I would think the father would take the son's fear into account and if it is not pleasant for him, it wouldn't be for the father, so from the way I see it, the father wouldn't go.

 

[Montecore1]

I wondered why have remote controls at all, and not hard wired, but I am wondering if it was because Rush wanted to be able to maintain control while others were in the position to look out the window (which is where hard wired controls would normally be)

From what I read in one of the articles, one reason it was Bluetooth instead of being hardwired in was so every passenger could easily have a turn at "driving" the submersible...

 

[Cryptic]

The fact this was preventable makes it so much worse- those people who perished with the CEO who built this contraption (i.e. submersible), trusted him- and they were so betrayed.

I think the level of betrayal would depend on the customer group.

In this case, with the exception of the 19 year old, the customer group had very good knowledge of the inherent risks- and even cursory research would have revealed that the submerssible was not exactly uhmm.... built by Boeing.

In short, I dont think there was a betrayal. Rather, there was a high degree of risk that is also associated with cave diving, and extreme mountaineering.

Though I personally would never attempt those activities, I don't think that I would be betrayed if I responded to an advertisement offering guided scuba under water cave exploration to unique caverns.

Rather, the "scuba" and "underwater cave" component should tell me that this is not a Disney Adventure ride in regards to inherent safety.

 

[musicaljoke]

parts that are subject to repeated stressors get tested ...not just before use, but periodically because each time this vessel was used it could be damaged- would like to see if there was testing going on between "missions" and if they thought there was a "service life" for the hull before it would need repair or replacement, IMO

Apparently the vessel was made from carbon fibre, which it is quite brittle and prone to splitting and cracking. Hockey players know how carbon fibre sticks just snap in two.

 

[musicaljoke]

How could that have been immediate when there was no search until after 6:26 pm?

Yeah, I suspected that the story was a bit of military propaganda.

 

[Trebor5591]

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show​

Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show

Warnings over the sub's safety were dismissed by OceanGate's CEO, emails seen by the BBC show.

www.bbc.com

 

[Warwick1991]

Am not a scientist but I believe it’s because the submersible is depressurized to match what is closer to the pressure above water. So it’s using a lot of force pushing back against the force of the surrounding pressure. My understanding is that the implosion happens when the outside force of the water overcomes the force that’s depressurizing the sub

Edit: autocorrect

The submersible needs to be pressurized. If it was depressurized, the pressure inside the sub would match the external pressure under water - resulting in death for all aboard.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Titan mothership heads back to St John's from debris site​

As we've been reporting, several vessels remain at the site of the debris field today in the aftermath of the likely implosion.

But the Polar Prince, the mothership of the Titan sub that launched it on Sunday, is heading back to St John's, Newfoundland, Canada.
It is expected to arrive there tomorrow morning.

Vessels at the wreck site are constantly moving around the area, but this map shows the position some of the ships involved with the search held this morning.

Horizon Arctic is a commercial vessel which operated the Palegic Odysseus 6K ROV - the craft which first found the debris field yesterday. The ship is operated by the same company which owns Polar Prince.

The map also highlights two other ships - French-operated L'Atalante, which has deployed the Victor 6000 ROV, and scientific research vessel John Cabot, which is operated by the Canadian Coast Guard.

View attachment 430669

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

This infographic is making me feel really stupid. It looks like it’s showing the Titan debris being many KILOMETERS away from the Titanic wreck site. Or is the bottom half of the image somehow a blowup of some part of the top half?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Pakistan's Foreign Ministry wrote on Twitter that it appreciates "the multinational efforts over the last several days in search of the vessel." The Dawood family also thanked all involved in the search.

"Their untiring efforts were a source of strength for us during this time," the family said in a statement. "We are also indebted to our friends, family, colleagues and well-wishers from all over the world who stood by us during our need."

With the fate of Titanic-bound submersible clear, focus turns to cause of the fatal implosion

The search for a missing Titanic-bound submersible has become an investigation and salvage mission that will take an indefinite amount of time, officials said, as tributes from around the world poured in for the five people killed.

abc7.com

*Anyone want to give a description of this photo? C’mon, give it a shot

 

[iamshadow21]

This infographic is making me feel really stupid. It looks like it’s showing the Titan debris being many KILOMETERS away from the Titanic wreck site. Or is the bottom half of the image somehow a blowup of some part of the top half?

The bottom half fits INSIDE the 'Titanic wreck site' dot on the top half... that's my reading of it, anyway.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm none the wiser