Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

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  • #701
justtrish said:
Doesn't make any sense to me either. I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't climb Everest and probably wouldn't zip line. I like adventure, but the kind where my feet stay on the ground and my oxygen is 100% guaranteed. I do wonder if the fact the guy "selling" them this trip was also going on it? Maybe they assumed he wouldn't put himself at risk? It's unfortunate because I do wonder if they knew, really knew the dangers if they would have went. It seems this vessel was wearing down and extra risk was taken with each repeated trip and the guy just kept selling the trip.
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I'm scared of heights, but I actually have been zip lining and it was a blast! I felt very secure in my harness. I wouldn't go mountain climbing or in a submersible though. Josh Gates went once and wouldn't go again with Rush.
 
  • #702
  • #703
ArianeEmory said:
Couple of unsourced JMOs or applicable disclaimer:

1) my husband said he saw a story about a prior incident with the submersible where one of the thrusters was installed backwards and so the sub could only move in circles ... Has anyone seen this?

2) all the talk of carbon fiber makes me think of motorcycle helmets, which are sometimes made of it. A random piece of trivia in my brain is that once a helmet has had a single impact, perhaps even something like accidentally dropping it onto concrete from a decent height, you are supposed to replace that helmet because it’s been structurally compromised. I don’t know how this translates to repeated exposure to extreme pressure, but it keeps popping up in my mind.
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[bbm]

I think it's called 'crash energy' - applies to car seats too
 
  • #704
gitana1 said:
It’s not there. His name is not on the list. Did they take it down?
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Someone determined that he didnt invent the sub, so they removed his name
 
  • #705
Arkay said:
So it looks to me like Stockton Rush was the George Santos of the submersible community. Or the P.T Barnum.

On CNN they had a long list of all the respected engineering and other entities that Rush claimed were associated with his venture. NASA, Boeing, Lloyd’s and so on. All of whom have claimed they did nothing of the sort in the manner which Rush had described.


Still, I think lawsuits may not be productive. IMO those waivers were practically shouting “YOU MAY DIE! WE AREN'T REGULATED! DANGER DANGER DANGER! YOU MAY BE INJURED OR DIE IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS!”

With the possible exception of the 19-year old, who was legally an adult, old enough to marry or serve in the military but perhaps not fully cognizant of what he was getting into, all the other men were middle aged and older. The French Navy guy was tremendously experienced. They made their choice.

IMO the only way through that is how Rush misrepresented his company as having the imprimatur of all these professional agencies. This fact may therefore render those waivers moot.

Still, I have such pity for how these people died. Instantaneous implosion which would immediately collapse and crush them into microscopic particles. Then, I imagine, vacuumed up by the ever moving sea.

JMO
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That's what we keep saying at my house. The P.T. Barnum part. And I have personally been hoodwinked a couple of times, just not to this degree (not rich enough of course).

I don't think the lawsuits will be productive. I think the Dawood family will likely not sue (many reasons). Hamish's family might sue - but may have to file their suit in the Bahamas or in UK. Of course, they could try and file it in Washington State. Just figuring out the jurisdictional issues (when there are no easy deep pockets) will be difficult and expensive (but fame-bringing).

I personally think that if I could devise a way of dying so instantly, I would consider it. But in the end, I want to give my family the chance to do what they think is most easy/helpful/meaningful to them. They apparently do not wish me to be eaten by a bear (one of my preferred forms of dying - long story) or dead in a wilderness misadventure. They would prefer not to have to mount a search effort, etc. These kinds of considerations do mean something - but many families learn that the Adventurer among them will prevail and will be adventurous.

I do have real empathy for the adventurous. And most truly adventurous people realize the risks and are ready to die (or nearly so) for their dreams, as I did myself, once upon a time.

Is Rush survived only by his wife? No kids?

IMO.
 
  • #706
10ofRods said:
It had a window that was only rated to 1500m. So, no, it wasn't "designed" to operate at that depth. It had at least one known component NOT designed to be at that depth.

The designer in this case was literally out of his own depth (and flying on a wing and maybe a prayer - although more like a wing and hubris, IMO). He apparently said that the carbon fiber offloaded by Boeing because it was past its shelf life was "fine." It's not fine right now. He took the same view regarding the rated strength of that bigger window. For all we know, that's what imploded first.

It was *never* designed to go to that depth; that was all hype. Further, even if it had had NDTesting or any kind of materials expert looking at it, it still needed to be thoroughly reexamined (as an experimental vessel with no license to be operating as a passenger submersible at that depth). Each time it went down and when it was in sun and water all day, there should have been examinations by non-CEO's and others whose only job was to ensure safety.

IMO. Someone saying they designed something doesn't make it so, especially when the specifications are technical and across so many varying materials. Rush did not receive any certification of his design nor was it ever inspected by an outside party (the licensing agency turned it down just on the issue with the hatch; it did not meet industry or licensing standards).

It truly needed to be in unregulated waters. And so it was.

IMO.
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I agree with everything you've said, except that we appear to define "designed" differently.

Many things are designed that are found not to meet requirements or cut some corners. Rush always intended to take Titan down to Titanic and to me that means Titan was designed for that purpose. We can all agree it was a terrible design. It was a design that he was repeatedly told was unsafe and which was totally unfit for purpose, using sub-standard and untested components.

I can't put myself into a mindset like his. I could never build a submersible that hadn't had every mission-critical component tested twenty times over. But whether due to hubris, tunnel-vision, or something else I can't fathom, it appears to have been a design that Rush himself was convinced would be successful. Tragically he was wrong.
 
  • #707
The Transportation Safety Board [of Canada] and the RCMP will be conducting separate investigations into the deaths of five people aboard the submersible Titan.

RCMP Newfoundland and Labrador Superintendent Kent Osmond says a team has been formed for a preliminary study to determine if a full investigation is warranted, or if any laws have been broken. No timeline has been set for the preliminary inspection.

He says this case is a unique circumstance due not only to the nature of the incident, but the number of jurisdictions involved.
Osmond says such a review does not necessarily mean anything criminal has occurred, adding that such investigations are common, as they have jurisdiction to investigation offshore deaths.

This, separately and in addition to the collaborative investigation being carried out by the Canadian and U.S. Transportation Safety Boards. Osmond says they expect cooperation between the separate endeavours.

 
  • #708
justtrish said:
I believe with Everest they go up in smaller increments and stay at that elevation to acclimate before continuing on and at some point they also verify the weather window is a go for those that have made it to the final stop point, can continue on up to the summit. At any of those stopping points, someone can be told they won't be going up. I don't know the specifics, but I've watched documentaries on Everest. If they don't keep up (they need to maintain a certain time in order to be able to summit and return back to the previous point) it puts them all at risk of not being able to summit or worse getting killed. People can also be stopped if they experience too bad elevation sickness. So they definately need to be in shape and prepared to even get there, but along the way there are ways to weed out those thataren't going to make it beforethey get to the point of putting htemselves and others in danger. Nothing is full proof and people choosing to climb that mountain 100% know the dangers and risks.

I question if people going in that submersible really understood that the vessel was unsafe and not regulated. This is different in my mind than risking a climb up Everest. I'd say if you don't know your climbing equipment is safe and someone supplying it is taking shortcuts that make the equipment more unsafe that would be like this situation. The ocean has it's known risks, but what this situation also had is a company that took shortcuts on safety so I wonder if those paying to go even had any idea the real risk they faced.
Click to expand...

Sort of. There are some big expeditions. There are expeditions where Sherpas (locals) are paid to literally tow the people up, almost like carrying them. There are expeditions that pay NO attention to the weather (getting last minute approval to go up, don't care).

Elevation sickness can be deadly in a very short period of time. People ignore the symptoms, generally, because early symptoms are similar to other travelers' discomforts and issues. People lie to get higher (because they spent 100,000 US dollars not including travel and equipment expenses - sometimes more. There is NO guarantee that they'll be in shape and in the past decade, there have been some decidedly unprepared people causing rescue crises OR dying on Everest.

There is NO weeding out process for Everest, aside from one's net worth and one's internal notions of being prepared. Sherpas die every year due to the miscalculations of non-Tibetans/non-Nepalese who decided to pay their way to the top.

www.cnbc.com

Afraid of heights, he climbed Mount Everest — now he's helping others conquer their fears too

Vivian James Rigney tells CNBC Travel about what he learned — and how much it cost him — to climb the tallest mountains on every continent.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com

As usual, the number of Sherpas dead just in 2023 is hard to find (there are 13 persons dead on Everest so far in 2023) is buried deep in all the MSM articles, because it's shameful. But every year 2-3 locals die carrying/assisting these rich people up everest.

THe prices quoted in this article have doubled or tripled:

2023 Everest Season: Record Permits and Deaths, 600 Summits

Inexperience, overcrowding and climate change have all been blamed for the record number of deaths on Everest. Meanwhile, 250 climbers and 250 Sherpas reached the top.
www.expedreview.com

More than 300 Sherpas have died - yes, died - carrying non-locals up Everest (literally carrying them and their stuff and trying to rescue them):

www.lonelyplanet.com

Tragedy and resilience among the Sherpa people - Lonely Planet

For the Sherpa people of Khumbu, the tourism of Mount Everest is both a livelihood and a source of unspeakable hardship.
www.lonelyplanet.com www.lonelyplanet.com
 
  • #709
gitana1 said:
It’s not there. His name is not on the list. Did they take it down?
Click to expand...

I don't see it either. I think it was never there. The Twitter account that posted it did not provide a live link and is prone to posting things just to get Twitter-attention.

IMO.
 
  • #710
  • #711
KooshBall said:
Absolutely not. Do you think Holmes would have risked her health by trusting results of a machine she knew was a con? Rush obviously believed in his contraption if he got on it with plans to return. I don't think he was evil and set out to kill people. I don't think he was trying to con people for money, he had a passion and was blinded possibly by ego and excitement. Holmes is a sociopath, she even had kids just to push back having to serve her sentence. I think many are being disrespectful to a man who just passed away, and was loved by his friends and family. I get being angry at his decisions that led to this tragic event, but making him out to be an evil, scheming, grifter isn't right imo. He didn't hide that he bought used carbon fiber, he didn't hide that he thought he knew better than experts. Would someone set out on intentionally conning people freely admit these things?

All these people that are acting like they knew this would happen didn't exactly go out of their way to alert the general public. If I truly believed people were going to die if they got in this sub, I would have gone out of my way to make people aware, go to the media, contact the government, post all over social media, anything to warn future riders. If people knew this was a ticking time bomb, and kept this info between a small group of people, how are they not somewhat responsible as well?
Click to expand...

BBM, TY for that and the rest of your post. All these people coming out of the woodwork need to STHU, including James Cameron. I never knew who he was before this and I'm unsurprised he rubs me the wrong way since I though his movie, Titanic, (unpopular opinion) sucked.
 
  • #712
people.com

'Titan' Family Tragedy Averted Due to Son’s Warnings About Safety of Sub

Jay Bloom and his 20-year-old son Sean Bloom backed out of their plans to board the 'Titan' submersible over safety concerns, a decision that saved their lives.
people.com people.com

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who was among the five people who died in the tragedy, flew out to Las Vegas to meet with Jay in March.

“As late as the end of May, or in mid-May, he was texting me that they had spots open a week or two out. And he offered me a $100,000 off each of our tickets,” Jay reveals.

"He was a good guy, great heart, really believed in what he was doing and saying. But he didn't want to hear anything that conflicted with his world view, and he would just dismiss it.”

Jay says Rush put a big push on him to book the trip. “He was doing research and he had some scientific endeavors that he was doing. He was using tourists to pay for it,” he recalls. “That's how he was financing his operation, by charging observers to go with him.”

1687656589108.png
 
  • #713
  • #714
10ofRods said:
Sort of. There are some big expeditions. There are expeditions where Sherpas (locals) are paid to literally tow the people up, almost like carrying them. There are expeditions that pay NO attention to the weather (getting last minute approval to go up, don't care).

Elevation sickness can be deadly in a very short period of time. People ignore the symptoms, generally, because early symptoms are similar to other travelers' discomforts and issues. People lie to get higher (because they spent 100,000 US dollars not including travel and equipment expenses - sometimes more. There is NO guarantee that they'll be in shape and in the past decade, there have been some decidedly unprepared people causing rescue crises OR dying on Everest.

There is NO weeding out process for Everest, aside from one's net worth and one's internal notions of being prepared. Sherpas die every year due to the miscalculations of non-Tibetans/non-Nepalese who decided to pay their way to the top.

www.cnbc.com

Afraid of heights, he climbed Mount Everest — now he's helping others conquer their fears too

Vivian James Rigney tells CNBC Travel about what he learned — and how much it cost him — to climb the tallest mountains on every continent.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com

As usual, the number of Sherpas dead just in 2023 is hard to find (there are 13 persons dead on Everest so far in 2023) is buried deep in all the MSM articles, because it's shameful. But every year 2-3 locals die carrying/assisting these rich people up everest.

THe prices quoted in this article have doubled or tripled:

2023 Everest Season: Record Permits and Deaths, 600 Summits

Inexperience, overcrowding and climate change have all been blamed for the record number of deaths on Everest. Meanwhile, 250 climbers and 250 Sherpas reached the top.
www.expedreview.com

More than 300 Sherpas have died - yes, died - carrying non-locals up Everest (literally carrying them and their stuff and trying to rescue them):

www.lonelyplanet.com

Tragedy and resilience among the Sherpa people - Lonely Planet

For the Sherpa people of Khumbu, the tourism of Mount Everest is both a livelihood and a source of unspeakable hardship.
www.lonelyplanet.com www.lonelyplanet.com
Click to expand...
Wow thanks for this information. I guess some people just don't have the self preservation gene that keeps many of us from risking our lives for things like this.

ETA: I am not saying climbing Everest is wrong. I was meaning those that aren't prepared and being reckless with their own lives and others is who I speaking of. I think people can prepare and know what they are getting into and go do it.
 
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  • #715
Gardenista said:
BBM, TY for that and the rest of your post. All these people coming out of the woodwork need to STHU, including James Cameron. I never knew who he was before this and I'm unsurprised he rubs me the wrong way since I thought his movie, Titanic, (unpopular opinion) sucked.
Click to expand...
OT

Just wanted to say, I didn’t like the movie either.

Perhaps these people had signed NDAs, so could not speak up?
 
  • #716
Cool Cats said:
people.com

'Titan' Family Tragedy Averted Due to Son’s Warnings About Safety of Sub

Jay Bloom and his 20-year-old son Sean Bloom backed out of their plans to board the 'Titan' submersible over safety concerns, a decision that saved their lives.
people.com people.com

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who was among the five people who died in the tragedy, flew out to Las Vegas to meet with Jay in March.

“As late as the end of May, or in mid-May, he was texting me that they had spots open a week or two out. And he offered me a $100,000 off each of our tickets,” Jay reveals.

"He was a good guy, great heart, really believed in what he was doing and saying. But he didn't want to hear anything that conflicted with his world view, and he would just dismiss it.”

Jay says Rush put a big push on him to book the trip. “He was doing research and he had some scientific endeavors that he was doing. He was using tourists to pay for it,” he recalls. “That's how he was financing his operation, by charging observers to go with him.”

View attachment 430947
Click to expand...
Sounds like the perfect storm. If only there was some oversight on things like this because it sounds like he was going no matter what anyone said. Unfortunate he took people with him and refused to hear another view. Passion for a project is all good and well, but passion for a project that blinds you to very real risk is so dangerous.
 
  • #717
  • #718
  • #719
justtrish said:
but if the worst case thing ends up being cost cutting measures that end up killing us?? That isn't something most agree to or would agree to so I wonder exactly what those passengers did understand or not about the safety of that vessel?
Click to expand...

"There can be many different truths from one source"

OK faux new age mysticism aside, I think the key to your question is "those passengers" and "what the activity was".

Those passengers were not twenty something year olds taking an impulsive ride on a zip line during a summer break from their day jobs. They then assume that the ride was inspected by the State and over all safe but thrilling.

Rather, with one exception, "those people" were all very astute individuals (former naval officer / diver, very wealthy self made businessmen, a designer with an engineering degree from Princeton).

Those people knew that the proposed activity 4,000 meters below the water was not a trip on zipline. They also knew full well that the submarine was not certified and was largely home built (the designer and CEO, what ever his faults, made the nature of the submersible very clear).

In short, it was clearly a risky adventure- similar to extreme cave diving and conducted by fully informed people.
 
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  • #720
JDG said:
It was there 42 minutes ago….upthread.
Click to expand...

I know, I was responding to the person who thought it hadn't been.
 
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