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Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3
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Do you think engineers at NASA were at least consulted?
The media has reported this to be the case.
Missing Titanic submersible built with NASA help
Engineers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama lent their expertise.
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This article discusses to what extent OceanGate collaborated with the institutions such as NASA and University of Washington Applied Physics. The latter assisted with CYCLOPS and that was shallow-water implementation. It had nothing at all to do with the Titan.
abcnews.go.com
OceanGate exaggerated details of industry partnerships behind lost Titan submersible
The company behind the missing Titanic tourist submersible exaggerated the details of the industry partnerships behind its titan submersible.
I think ultimately things are still 'buyer beware', but at the same time, nothing is guaranteed 100% safe.
You choose a reputable zip line company with good reviews, not some dodgy guy who 's put up a hand-written sign beside his driveway. You consider carefully whether you really want to rent a scooter in Bankok...etc.
Every decision one makes is a choice, that will have a positive or negative outcome. You have to choose who to trust, what will fulfill your desires vs the risk, etc.
I agree, history is full of such people (seemingly, usually men). Napolean, for example, who lead the French army into a disasterous attempt to invade Russia.I am in a limbo here but let us wait for the official conclusions. Rush made one big mistake during this voyage, and this is what i hold against him, but I can't call him a grifter.
To be frank, any expeditionary-type discovery is probably made by the same type of people, and led by the same type of people. We consider Captain Scott a hero, well aware that he was driven by ambition, financial circumstances and yearning for the fame of being the first. To add, he had an obstinate character and was later accused of poor planning as well. Still, a hero.
Take Roald Amundsen, his nemesis. His memory about an explorer's book:
"I read them with a fervid fascination which has shaped the whole course of my life".
This "fervid fascination" is probably what describes all such characters, including Rush. Amundsen was not always straightforward about his goals. He planned his Antarctic expedition better than most, probably due to his experience from living with the Inuits. But, he died as he lived, and it, too, was for fame. Legends were told about his abrasive and competitive nature.
Perhaps it is is best described here. (I read Nobile's memoirs too, so, in general, close).
Nobile’s drama and Amundsen’s end
The conquest of the North Pole was highly contested in the 1920s. Arguments, insults and mishaps were part of the daily routine.polarjournal.ch
In short, if I were asked to guess if Rush were driven by the money or the fame + "fervid fascination", I'd say, the latter. I wouldn't be surprised if he invested way more into these endeavors. Ambitious, obstinate, overly relying on himself to the degree that he ended up dying himself and taking four other people with him - doesn't it sound familiar? Weren't most of the famed explorers the same?
Over centuries, how many of them died, ruined ships, airplanes and took others with them? But then one would achieve, return back, and the mankind would discover the New World, or get a better map of the Earth.
So this is what I think of it today. It's the type we are dealing with. And all their constructions were often held together with spit because of financial constraints. Today, the materials are more flimsy, the trend is towards lightweight, and the obvious is seen sooner.
The ancient Greeks called it hubris and recognized it was usually followed by nemesis. They made up a story to characterize it: Icarus was given wings made of wax and feathers, but in spite of warnings, couldn't resist flying so high that the sun melted the wax and he plunged to earth.
I still believe 'character is destiny". To expect a Napolean or an Icarus to behave like a cautious government bureaucrat is to set yourself up for disappointment: they won't because they can't. I'm sure some people told Captain Cook he should just stay home.
JMO
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MEDIA AVAILABILITY: Coast Guard to hold press briefing for Titan submersible response conc
WHO: Rear Adm. John Mauger, the First Coast Guard District commander, Capt. Jason Neubauer, chief investigator, U.S. Coast Guard.WHAT: The Coast Guard is scheduled to hold a press briefing to the
www.news.uscg.mil
ETA: I don't know how we can watch it...
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Right now being carried by CNN tv
JMO
I think the word "consult" is the wrong word. Via the Space Act Agreement (mentioned in your link), NASA makes public to all sectors much of their engineering research (written publications). Some are of course classified, but if not classified, they are publicly available in writing. Yes, we can say that we "consult the academic literature) but I think that Rush's having read these publications is NOT the same as what the MSM implies (that actual NASA engineers actually heard about the Titan and specifically consulted on it).Do you think engineers at NASA were at least consulted?
The media has reported this to be the case.
Missing Titanic submersible built with NASA help
Engineers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama lent their expertise.www.space.com
I do not believe that happened and will not believe it until those very engineers (who are in some hot water now if in fact they "lent" their expertise to Rush and specifically consulted (for free or not) with him over the Titan design.
I believe that someone in NASA spoken to Rush during the building of the Cyclops not the Titan. I seriously doubt that the head of NASA officially went on record ("speaking for NASA") saying their engineers were doing this (and I do wonder if their engineers had to be anonymous or retired because...I wasn't aware that NASA engineers took on consulting projects in the private sector).
The original source of this information was, of course, Rush himself (and even he never says "Space Act Agreement" (as if there were a special agreement just between OceanGate and NASA - the Space Act was signed into law after the two houses agreed upon it - it does not authorize or mention contractual agreement or help between independent engineering contractors and NASA's engineers - at all; it's about the right of the public to certain information - and resulted in NASA publishing what it had on carbon fiber, which Rush then read and used in his own manner. That's how I read his actual statement here:
OceanGate, Inc. Engineered Submersible Marks a Pivotal Shift in Deep Sea Exploration with Series of Successful Titanic Dives
Everett, Washington (PRWEB) March 09, 2022 -- OCEANGATE, INC. (OceanGate) worked in consultation with a team of engineers at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight
www.prweb.com
Pay attention to how carefully this article is constructed. The astronaut never says anything about helping design Titan for OceanGate. Instead, he talks about how beautiful the oceans look from up in space and how now he's a passenger-in-training to go on the Titan. He went as a passenger. I doubt NASA paid for his seat, but wish a reporter would ask someone high up in NASA to respond to that.
Then NASA is mentioned again (because it helped select the people who went on the Virgin Galactic. So a man who studies planetary science gets selected by NASA to go on a private space voyage, and now the man hopes to go on the Titan.
These are not clues that make me think the MSM article is getting it right. It's not surprising that Rush read articles that NASA had on carbon fiber as materials. It is overstatement, in my view, to say that NASA "helped to design" the Titan.
IMO.
A lot of information in here about the history of the company … development, building of submersibles, challenges, etc…
OceanGate - Wikiwand
OceanGate Inc. is an American privately owned company based in Everett, Washington, that provided crewed submersibles for tourism, industry, research, and explo...
www.wikiwand.com
Blondiexoxo
Studying Forensic Psychology BSc hons
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I’d be interested to hear from a lawyer or someone with legal knowledge about whether the waiver that oceangate had passengers sign would hold up in court? The wording seems to absolve pretty much anyone and everyone remotely connected to Oceangate of all reaponsibility right down to ‘clients, partners and subcontractors’. It seems whoever created this waiver was very careful to list every possible person that could be held responsible if anything went wrong.
However I don’t think the part about negligence should hold up IMO if Oceangate were negligent then the responsibility should fall on them regardless of signed waivers.
It’s kind of like signing a consent form for surgery and then dying on the operating table after your surgeon used unsterile equipment, administered anaesthetic that they knew was out of date and experimental drugs that had never been used on unconscious patients before. IMO that would constitute negligence, and no amount of consent forms, waivers, danger warnings should absolve someone of blame when they’ve acted negligently with prior knowledge of the risks they were taking. If the surgeon were to die the suddenly on the same day then IMO that doesn’t mean that the responsibility dies with them. The blame simply moved up the chain to whoever was in the know, whoever helped surgeon act with such negligence. The hospital for having him, his colleagues for not disclosing to patients that they were stepping into a possible death trap and so on and so forth.. JMO
In this situation IMO regardless of the risks that the passengers waived when they signed that form, from what we know so far they were not fully informed exactly what they were undertaking.
Now does that responsibility fall on them for not asking the questions that the waiver claims oceangate would be there to answer should they have any? Or does the responsibility fall on Oceangate for not disclosing that their viewing port couldn’t handle the pressure at even half the depth of where they planned to go? Or that SR had actually been warned by what we now know to be multiple people that he was putting lives at serious risk?
I don’t think atleast the Dawoods for instance fully understood that from what we are hearing, compared to other submersibles, passengers getting into Titan for that journey down to the titanic appear to have been entering themselves into a disturbing game of Russian roulette.
Does the law surrounding waivers require that those signing have to be in a position to give ‘informed consent’, do they legally have to be fully informed of the dangers or does the fact the waiver mentions ‘other unanticipated, inherent risks’ account for anything those signing don’t know about.
As I’ve said before, it baffles me that no one seems to have asked to consult their attorney for advice prior to signing this waiver. IMO many people with significant wealth tend to seek legal advice before signing any documents. Never mind ones that mention death 8/9 times over 3 pages…
MOO
However I don’t think the part about negligence should hold up IMO if Oceangate were negligent then the responsibility should fall on them regardless of signed waivers.
It’s kind of like signing a consent form for surgery and then dying on the operating table after your surgeon used unsterile equipment, administered anaesthetic that they knew was out of date and experimental drugs that had never been used on unconscious patients before. IMO that would constitute negligence, and no amount of consent forms, waivers, danger warnings should absolve someone of blame when they’ve acted negligently with prior knowledge of the risks they were taking. If the surgeon were to die the suddenly on the same day then IMO that doesn’t mean that the responsibility dies with them. The blame simply moved up the chain to whoever was in the know, whoever helped surgeon act with such negligence. The hospital for having him, his colleagues for not disclosing to patients that they were stepping into a possible death trap and so on and so forth.. JMO
In this situation IMO regardless of the risks that the passengers waived when they signed that form, from what we know so far they were not fully informed exactly what they were undertaking.
Now does that responsibility fall on them for not asking the questions that the waiver claims oceangate would be there to answer should they have any? Or does the responsibility fall on Oceangate for not disclosing that their viewing port couldn’t handle the pressure at even half the depth of where they planned to go? Or that SR had actually been warned by what we now know to be multiple people that he was putting lives at serious risk?
I don’t think atleast the Dawoods for instance fully understood that from what we are hearing, compared to other submersibles, passengers getting into Titan for that journey down to the titanic appear to have been entering themselves into a disturbing game of Russian roulette.
Does the law surrounding waivers require that those signing have to be in a position to give ‘informed consent’, do they legally have to be fully informed of the dangers or does the fact the waiver mentions ‘other unanticipated, inherent risks’ account for anything those signing don’t know about.
As I’ve said before, it baffles me that no one seems to have asked to consult their attorney for advice prior to signing this waiver. IMO many people with significant wealth tend to seek legal advice before signing any documents. Never mind ones that mention death 8/9 times over 3 pages…
MOO
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Watch live: US Coast Guard hold news conference on Titan submersible
The search for signs about what happened to the Titan continues. Rear Admiral John Mauger, the First Coast Guard District commander and Captain Jason Neubaue...
www.youtube.com
A lot of information in here about the history of the company … development, building of submersibles, challenges, etc…
OceanGate - Wikiwand
OceanGate Inc. is an American privately owned company based in Everett, Washington, that provided crewed submersibles for tourism, industry, research, and explo...www.wikiwand.com
University of Washington has, I believe, denied that they collaborating in building and testing the Titan.
Boeing, UW and NASA deny design partnerships with OceanGate | HeraldNet.com
WSU Everett and Everett Community College severed ties with company.
WikiWand scrapes Wikipedia and then edits down their content for casual readers. I think the OceanGate Wiki is in a state of flux/re-edit.
Boeing and University of Washington deny OceanGate's claim that they helped design the lost Titan sub
"Boeing was not a partner on the Titan and did not design or build it," a Boeing spokesperson said in an emailed statement to Insider.
www.businessinsider.com
And, once again, we have the main connection apparently being that a U of W professor went on the CYCLOPS. The professor points out that it was a different and safer design:
I assume this made the professor a "mission specialist," and therefore he "helped" with the CYCLOPS doing its research (professor is a biologist, not an engineer or even an oceanographer). He's the only U of W person I can find who did research with OceanGate (counting fish/species identification).
The depth of that voyage was 1000 feet.
Maybe more and more will come out about various phone calls, passengers taken on three different types of submersibles, etc., but so far, no one from U of W has admitted to helping design anything.
IMO.
I posted a link to a news report that quoted Thomas Schoenbaum, a University of Washington law professor, and
George Rutherglen, a professor of admiralty law at the University of Virginia. And, "Lawyer You Know" has covered it a few times on his YT channel (I'd link but I don't know if it's approved).
Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3
The Titan was a ticking time bomb and nobody knew it. very sad. Apparently Josh Gates and James Cameron knew better...
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it seems that way and I can't understand knowing that and still selling tickets
NeverPersonal
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{snipped by me for focus}
1. An employee of OceanGate was a whistleblower who got fired and SUED for trying to warn the company, the CEO, and the public, that the Titan was absolutely unsafe and should not be used period let alone to go over 12,000 ft under the sea level. OceanGate advertised it could go about 13k feet under sea level when it was having trouble remaining functional at 11k. It had no right to be taking people 12.5k under sea level. "That employee, David Lochridge, was fired by OceanGate after airing his complaints to government regulators and OceanGate's management, with the latter then suing him for breach of contract."
Lochridge claimed he believed the company could "subject passengers to potential extreme danger in an experimental submersible," according to the legal filing.
2. In 2018, a professional trade group warned that OceanGate's experimental approach to the design of the Titan could lead to potentially "catastrophic" outcomes, according to a letter from the group obtained by CBS News. Stockton Rush refused to acknowledge this letter or heed its gentle but firm warning and instead took it as a "personal insult", as he admittedly did with every safety concern for the vessel.
3. OceanGate had said that its engineers worked with NASA, Boeing, and the University of Washington as well as Boeing to create the Titan to be "nearly indestructible" (a quote by Stockton, of course).
NASA has now come forward and said it had provided only remote consultation on the project and it did not give any approvals for the build. Boeing said it was "not a partner on the Titan and did not design or build it". The University of Washington also denied involvement in making the ship. These companies helped on initial designs for a much less capable predecessor to the Titan, Cyclops 1. They had much, much less to do with the Titan.
4. The Titan was neither insured or certified. If you care about people's safety in any way, wouldn't those things be important to you?
5. Stockton Rush said that at a certain point, safety stands in the way of innovation. He viewed rules as stifling and unnecessary, and when asked in interviews about customers potentially dying he even laughed a few times. I personally am of the firm belief he had main character syndrome BIG TIME and didn't think anything bad could potentially ever happen to him. The world revolved around Stockton
6. Mr. Rush admitted in an earlier conversation that he had broken rules with the materials used to build the Titan's hull. A clip emerged where Mr Rush told Mexican actor Alan Estrada about the sub’s seven-inch thick acrylic window - the only way to gaze out onto the wreck of the Titanic.
7. Mr Rush adds in the video: "I’ve broken some rules to make this.“I think I broke them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon and firmer and titanium, there’s a rule you don’t do that - well I did."
8. Multiple people have come forward saying he rushed this due to investors pushing for the final product after about 3 years of stagnance, and raised the prices as well. Link below.
I could go on, but I'm in the hospital and exhausted. He is every last bit to blame for this. He was pushy, condescending, and holier-than-thou about scientific aspects he didn't know nearly as much about as he would like to have people believe he did. This cockiness resulted in the loss of 4 lives. In my personal opinion, he has blood on his hands. But if there's any justice to be served, it'll have to be in the next life if one exists.
I find it a little difficult to have empathy for a privileged rich man who was self-focused, aspired constantly to have more power and wealth, and refused to listen to anyone with good sense because he wanted to be the pioneer of deep sea tourism regardless of any corners he'd have to cut.
More sources:
Experts say the Titan sub's unconventional design may have destined it for disaster
The deadly implosion of the Titan submersible raises questions about whether the vessel exploring the Titanic wreckage was destined for its own disaster because of its unconventional design and its creator’s refusal to submit to safety checks that are standard in the industry.
www.pbs.org
Sub's carbon-fiber composite hull was the 'critical failure,' James Cameron says
OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, who was among the five crew members killed on the submersible, had previously defended the decision to manufacture the Titan with the material.
Years before Titanic sub went missing, OceanGate was warned about "catastrophic" safety issues
Experts inside and outside the company had flagged problems including uncertainty Titan could reach its intended depth.
www.cbsnews.com
Missing sub CEO sued for fraud in Florida after canceling several expeditions for safety concerns
The Hagles allege they paid Rush nearly a half million dollars, only to have their expedition aboard the Titan canceled several times due to safety concerns and equipment failure.
Owner of missing Titanic sub admitted biggest fear was getting stuck underwater
OceanGate CEO and founder Stockton Rush is one of five people on the lost Titan submersible that was diving to the Titanic.
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