Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4

[iamshadow21]

Who called it 'super secret'? Was that a description directly from the Navy, or was it just some journalistic embellishment?

Of course its existence isn't really a secret. It was even a plot point in The Hunt for Red October, and Tom Clancy wrote that forty years ago when the whole system was still officially classified.

What is secret is the system's capabilities: how far away can it detect a sub, how sensitive it is, etc. So, the important question is, "Did the announcement reveal any capabilities that weren't already widely known?" I suspect the answer is no. The Titan went down in the waters just off the Newfoundland coast, and I doubt that anyone in the know was surprised that the Navy could pick up sounds that close to the North American continental shelf. In fact, as soon as the Titan went missing the military-heads on Twitter and elsewhere were all openly speculating about what the Navy had detected.

I was pretty sure it was in H4RO... I haven't watched it in decades, but still could probably quote along with it. It is one of my mother's favourite movies. I think she hired it on video over thirty times before she ended up buying her own copy.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

And I'm shocked by how easy it was for journalists to find all this information. And so many warnings were given.

I'm now seeing this as yet another "wilderness misadventure" by foolhardy tourists who, in this case, were misled by a supposed expert (and that last part is rare, actually). Most guided adventures into the wild involve way better expertise than this one. But Rush obviously believed in his own view of physics, oceans, and submersibles.

Every year, someone will die in a national park by slipping off ice or snow and either (solo hiking) breaking a bone and being stranded in cold temperatures (despite multiple warnings) or going to the bottom of Grand Canyon without heat preparation and water, etc. Adventure tourism has risks. I think all parties knew that there was high risk and found it very stimulating. I too like adventurous things, but for me that's just a bit of white water rafting or backpacking in steep terrain (Grand Canyon). Some people continue to ante up their risk over a lifetime.

I feel as if the high price tag made people think it had to be "safe" and "well organized." LIke those $100,000 trekking tours to Everest. Even the $50,000 tours to Everest Base Camp have had casualties (but of course, it's not the entire party as in this case).

I do wonder if Rush, deep inside, preferred to continue the risk as opposed to facing the realities of his design problems. Freud would have mentioned that there is something called a "death wish."

IMO.

For all that the content is shocking, the writing is not sensationalistic. And yet, every new revelation is like a gut punch. When I got to the bottom, I saw that the writer won a Pulitzer three years ago.

MOO

 

[BUF]

While the company has not officially addressed any future expeditions, its website has two eight-day voyages listed for June 12, 2024, and June 21, 2024, at a cost of $250,00.

The trips are scheduled to depart from St. John’s, Newfoundland where "the expedition leader will go over important safety information and dive day logistics, and our science team and content experts will help you prepare for what you may discover on your dive."

Along with training and a submersible dive, OceanGate also promises its passengers meals and expedition gear, per the expedition's description.

OceanGate Still Advertising 'Titanic'-Bound Trips Days After 'Titan' Implosion

OceanGate continues to advertise 'Titanic' expeditions days after five passengers onboard the 'Titan' submersible died during its latest voyage to the historic underwater site on June 18.

people.com

And if you go on their website, they have this listed…

CONTENT EXPERTS WHO MAY JOIN YOU ON EXPEDITION
PH Nargeolet (is even listed under this)

Get it together folks!

OceanGate Expeditions

oceangateexpeditions.com

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You’re going to want a strong drink, or some chocolate, or your favorite meditation podcast or whatever. Whatever you rely on to keep your rage levels in check.

(If this topic didn’t necessarily “belong” on a crime forum before, it certainly does now.)

I was just coming here to say the same. Rush absolutely knew the risk he was putting people at and he didn't care, IMO he used them for money, he groomed them and ultimately killed them all for his own delusional fantasy power trip.

I think the article makes it clear, he was using the wealthy to fund his endeavours because there's literally no way any credible organisation or academic institution would go near him. That was parasitic.

I don't suppose he was trying to start up submarine tourism so much as he was grandiose and wanted to go down in history for pushing the bounds of deep sea exploration.

Seems like PHN quite literally no longer cared about his own life and had Rush not had PH on side making his shady operation look legitimate, those people would still be alive. But why did neither Rush nor PH not care about others' lives? Outrageous.

And what about all the people working for the company? Who is the woman in the video who bolts them inside this deathly capsule? It's been like a death cult, it's only fortuitous more people couldn't fit in the capsule or they'd be gone too.

JMO MOO

 

[Gardenista]

Fantastic New Yorker article.

The Titan Submersible Was “An Accident Waiting to Happen”

Interviews and e-mails with expedition leaders and employees reveal how OceanGate ignored desperate warnings from inside and outside the company. “It’s a lemon,” one wrote.

www.newyorker.com

I quit reading after the first few paragraphs when it said Rush would never try for certification when we know he did try.

 

[ArianeEmory]

I quit reading after the first few paragraphs when it said Rush would never try for certification when we know he did try.

Ok, I’ll bite, although it seems like an odd reason to reject a long-form piece of journalism with input from many expert sources.

Google is garbage now, so I can’t find proof that he “tried” for certification on the Titan. I can, however, find this archived blog post explaining why OceanGate didn’t feet certification mattered (never mind countless quotes from Rush himself about “stifling innovation”):

https://archive.is/yBrpk

OceanGate’s site seems to be down, so I had to use a web archive snapshot from a week ago.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I quit reading after the first few paragraphs when it said Rush would never try for certification when we know he did try.

Maybe it's because could never try for certification of the experimental carbon fibre hull he invented as it was not a material accepted for use. So why try when you already know you're outside of the defined standards of materials?

 

[ch_13]

Ok, I’ll bite, although it seems like an odd reason to reject a long-form piece of journalism with input from many expert sources.

Google is garbage now, so I can’t find proof that he “tried” for certification on the Titan. I can, however, find this archived blog post explaining why OceanGate didn’t feet certification mattered (never mind countless quotes from Rush himself about “stifling innovation”):

https://archive.is/yBrpk

OceanGate’s site seems to be down, so I had to use a web archive snapshot from a week ago.

I think @Gardenista may be referring to this passage (from the CNN blog - 4:56 PM on Jun 23):

"Lloyd’s Register declined a request from Ocean Gate to provide classification following a preliminary observation of Ocean Gate testing a Titan submersible in 2019,” the company said in a statement. “Lloyd’s Register did not go on to class the installation.”

And then The New Yorker article says:

Rush eventually decided that he would not attempt to have the Titanic-bound vehicle classed by a marine-certification agency such as DNV. He had no interest in welcoming into the project an external evaluator who would, as he saw it, “need to first be educated before being qualified to ‘validate’ any innovations.”

From everything I've read classing a sub isn't like inspecting a car. It's a complicated, expensive, years-long process. So I don't think the two articles are at odds. Lloyd's probably laid down conditions and costs that Rush was unwilling to meet and so both parties walked away.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators. The mothership’s crew is also being interviewed by different agencies.

Investigators with the Coast Guard have mapped the accident site and salvage operations are expected to continue, Cpt Jason Neubauer said. Once the investigation is wrapped — a timeline has not been laid out — a report with evidence, conclusions and recommendations will be released.

“I’m not getting into the details of the recovery operations but we are taking all precautions on site if we are to encounter any human remains,” Cpt Neubauer told reporters. “At this time a priority of the investigation is to recover items from the sea floor.”

Voice recordings under scrutiny in Titanic sub implosion investigation

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators

www.aol.com

*eta:
Investigators with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada visited the Polar Prince, the OceanGate Titan sub’s lead ship, Saturday “to collect information from the vessel’s voyage data recorder and other vessel systems that contain useful information,” TSB Chairwoman Kathy Fox told CNN.

Fox said the agency wants to “find out what happened and why and to find out what needs to change to reduce the chance or the risk of such occurrences in the future,” according to the report.

She said voice recordings “could be useful in our investigation” but insisted that the investigation’s purpose was not to affix blame.

Meanwhile, authorities are working to determine whether the case warrants a criminal investigation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superintendent Kent Osmond said Saturday.

“Such an investigation will proceed only if our examination of the circumstances indicate criminal, federal or provincial laws may possibly have been broken,” he told reporters.

Titanic sub’s voice recordings, data to be probed as officials mull possible criminality

TSB Chairwoman Kathy Fox said voice recordings “could be useful in our investigation” but insisted that the investigation’s purpose was not to affix blame.

nypost.com

 

[MsMarple]

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators. The mothership’s crew is also being interviewed by different agencies.

Investigators with the Coast Guard have mapped the accident site and salvage operations are expected to continue, Cpt Jason Neubauer said. Once the investigation is wrapped — a timeline has not been laid out — a report with evidence, conclusions and recommendations will be released.

“I’m not getting into the details of the recovery operations but we are taking all precautions on site if we are to encounter any human remains,” Cpt Neubauer told reporters. “At this time a priority of the investigation is to recover items from the sea floor.”

Voice recordings under scrutiny in Titanic sub implosion investigation

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators

www.aol.com

Voice recordings? I thought they communicated by texts.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Voice recordings? I thought they communicated by texts.

I thought same. Maybe they mean the recordings of the employees speaking in the control room?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

* Idk? surprised me too. I’ll go see what I can find in Google.
ok Google robot man helped:
Voice recordings and other data will be reviewed as part of a US Coast Guard-appointed expert board’s probe into the catastrophic implosion of the Titan submersible last week.

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators. The mothership’s crew is also being interviewed by different agencies.

Voice recordings under scrutiny in Titanic sub implosion investigation

Voice recordings between the Titan and its mothership Polar Prince will be reviewed by investigators

www.aol.com

 

[MsMarple]

I thought same. Maybe they mean the recordings of the employees speaking in the control room?

That’s what I thought too. This article phrases it a little better:

Canadian investigators boarded that ship, the Polar Prince, on Saturday “to collect information from the vessel’s voyage data recorder and other vessel systems that contain useful information,” Kathy Fox, chair of the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, said Saturday. A voyage data recorder stores audio from the ship’s bridge.
…
A voyage data recorder stores audio from the ship's bridge. "The content of those voice recordings could be useful in our investigation," Fox said.

Voice recordings and data from the mother ship that carried the Titan submersible before it imploded will be examined, investigators say

The vehicles will work to map out the vessel's debris field, which is more than 2 miles deep in the North Atlantic, Mauger said.

www.cbsnews.com

Communications between the submersible and its mother ship will also likely be scrutinized by officials probing the disaster. The ship could communicate with the submersible by text messages, and it’s required to communicate every 15 minutes, according to the archived website of OceanGate Expeditions.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/americas/submersible-titanic-implosion-deaths-sunday/index.html

 

[Charlot123]

Fantastic New Yorker article.

The Titan Submersible Was “An Accident Waiting to Happen”

Interviews and e-mails with expedition leaders and employees reveal how OceanGate ignored desperate warnings from inside and outside the company. “It’s a lemon,” one wrote.

www.newyorker.com

Very interesting.

If we don't make any conclusions today, it will be happening more and more, world-wide, because of cost-cutting. I mean it. It is everywhere, and we all know it.

Several aspects.

1) Rush's personality. Two founding fathers in the line already means, some relatives who were on the extreme of the Bell curve. Otherwise they won't have signed the Declaration. We have a chance of top 2% in certain qualities, be it good or bad (likely, good in certain situations, but not in all).
Then an oil tycoon. Again, probably top 2% in entrepreneurial qualities. With time, you can get the offspring like Rush who could probably function well in extreme situations and yearning for them. But also, wanting only to be the boss. However, constructing a sub is not extreme. Engineering is not an extreme job, rather, tedious and obsessive. Maybe here the problem lies. Too much passion, not enough obsession? And I, for one, believe that Rush was smart, maybe a tad intense to be an engineer.

2) I understand Rush came from a wealthy family. It doesn't mean he was expected into channel his kids' inheritance into the sub. Here is where someone has to tell us, what exactly did he have to build a prototype submersible, and what he needed to have. I read that he collected about 18.5 mln according to old articles; question is, how much does it cost to develop a prototype sub and run all the tests? Probably way more but I am not a sub designer. I would not be surprised if he had a shoestring budget, and this is where the main problem lied.

3) the salary mentioned. $ 15. We are talking about pre-Covid time but of WA with high excise taxes. Plus, lots of other taxes. I can't blame Rush for trying to cut cost here because business in WA is expensive. Ask any constructor. WA is another California. Well, almost. At the same time, Rush had to have a connection to WA, for obvious reasons. Hence, no older constructors but kids who'd work or intern for $15/hr.

4) what they finally said in the article. No one wanted to have Rush as an enemy because of his connections. That, and probably lack of some laws regulating the underwater travels business. If there were laws, people would be more scared of breaking them than of crossing Rush. But probably there are not enough regulations, so who cares if this well-connected passionary submerges to the depth he shouldn't be at and takes other people living fast lives with him? Until he takes someone obviously unaware of the risk.

And now, not only senseless deaths, not only grieving relatives, but what about his own family? Even the family name. What about those young people hired at $15 to build the machine, their future employment? What about any industry not using but planning to use carbon fibers? (I never knew how they looked, but parts of bike are made of them, so you get the idea).

So I think the situation requires an in-depth analysis. It is the same in many areas. Everything goes well and cool, then one mistake, usually of cost-cutting type, followed by a ton of lawsuits, then the program is closed. How to avoid it?

 

[crhedBngr]

RSBM

Have some antacids handy. Or a stiff drink. Schedule a moment to go outside and scream.

(I really wanted to do that last one, but it's 3:30am and I'll scare my neighbours.)

It's so much worse than we thought. And I didn't honestly know that was possible; my brain goes some pretty dark places.

MOO

Yep!

Unbelievable.

JMVHO.

 

[crhedBngr]

DBM.

 

[neesaki]

RSBM

Have some antacids handy. Or a stiff drink. Schedule a moment to go outside and scream.

(I really wanted to do that last one, but it's 3:30am and I'll scare my neighbours.)

It's so much worse than we thought. And I didn't honestly know that was possible; my brain goes some pretty dark places.

MOO

I did everything except the scream. Darn sure didn’t want LE showing up at my door.

 

[Sundog]

Seems like PHN quite literally no longer cared about his own life and had Rush not had PH on side making his shady operation look legitimate, those people would still be alive. But why did neither Rush nor PH not care about others' lives? Outrageous.

I didn't read PH's comments to mean that he didn't care about his life, but that he loved his work so much that he was willing to take the risk, knowing that deep dives to the Titanic were risky for anyone at all times and that something could happen at any time. And if it did, at least it would be a quick death, which is what most people hope for when their time comes.

I think he cared deeply about others' lives from everything I have read about him, and how respected and beloved he is in his own country, in France. And from the interviews of those close to him who are grieving his loss.

 

[acutename]

Very interesting.

If we don't make any conclusions today, it will be happening more and more, world-wide, because of cost-cutting. I mean it. It is everywhere, and we all know it.

Several aspects.

1) Rush's personality. Two founding fathers in the line already means, some relatives who were on the extreme of the Bell curve. Otherwise they won't have signed the Declaration. We have a chance of top 2% in certain qualities, be it good or bad (likely, good in certain situations, but not in all).
Then an oil tycoon. Again, probably top 2% in entrepreneurial qualities. With time, you can get the offspring like Rush who could probably function well in extreme situations and yearning for them. But also, wanting only to be the boss. However, constructing a sub is not extreme. Engineering is not an extreme job, rather, tedious and obsessive. Maybe here the problem lies. Too much passion, not enough obsession? And I, for one, believe that Rush was smart, maybe a tad intense to be an engineer.

2) I understand Rush came from a wealthy family. It doesn't mean he was expected into channel his kids' inheritance into the sub. Here is where someone has to tell us, what exactly did he have to build a prototype submersible, and what he needed to have. I read that he collected about 18.5 mln according to old articles; question is, how much does it cost to develop a prototype sub and run all the tests? Probably way more but I am not a sub designer. I would not be surprised if he had a shoestring budget, and this is where the main problem lied.

3) the salary mentioned. $ 15. We are talking about pre-Covid time but of WA with high excise taxes. Plus, lots of other taxes. I can't blame Rush for trying to cut cost here because business in WA is expensive. Ask any constructor. WA is another California. Well, almost. At the same time, Rush had to have a connection to WA, for obvious reasons. Hence, no older constructors but kids who'd work or intern for $15/hr.

4) what they finally said in the article. No one wanted to have Rush as an enemy because of his connections. That, and probably lack of some laws regulating the underwater travels business. If there were laws, people would be more scared of breaking them than of crossing Rush. But probably there are not enough regulations, so who cares if this well-connected passionary submerges to the depth he shouldn't be at and takes other people living fast lives with him? Until he takes someone obviously unaware of the risk.

And now, not only senseless deaths, not only grieving relatives, but what about his own family? Even the family name. What about those young people hired at $15 to build the machine, their future employment? What about any industry not using but planning to use carbon fibers? (I never knew how they looked, but parts of bike are made of them, so you get the idea).

So I think the situation requires an in-depth analysis. It is the same in many areas. Everything goes well and cool, then one mistake, usually of cost-cutting type, followed by a ton of lawsuits, then the program is closed. How to avoid it?

$15.74

Effective January 1, 2023, Washington State established $15.74 as the new minimum wage, up from $14.19 in 2022. The new wage regulations position Washington as the state with the highest minimum wage in the United States.Mar 2, 2023

 

[BeachSky]

Heads up this is on tonight :

Whole Story with Anderson Cooper, CNN
“Deadly Adventure: Trip to the Titanic” premieres on Sunday, July 2 at 8pm ET/PT.

The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper: Deadly Adventure: Trip to the Titanic (CNN Sunday July 2, 2023) | Memorable TV

The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper: Deadly Adventure: Trip to the Titanic airs Sunday July 2, 2023 on CNN What can we expect from this episode CNN's

www.memorabletv.com