Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Gavel Rash]

I'm very new and only a first post...but I've been trying to ascertain what would cause Oscar to be soooo aggressive..and it would have to be a threat to his brand and ego.
So the evening goes....
Oscar was going to do something else that evening but Reeva says lets stay at home...he thinks good...I get sex! Oscar is charged up with herbal testosterone...he watches ..now he's super revved up and expects some hard sex....he sets up the ipad and films their intimate scene...doesn't tell Reeva about it till after...Reeva DOES not like this and gets very upset....he tries to talk her down...says he will download it to dongle and put in his safe.....she is still pissed off...doesnt like it at all and says she is leaving and he better get rid of it or she will sue him...it gets heated, he gets agro, she runs to bathroom with pants...he chases with bat she drops pants on floor hides in loo...he smashes bat against bath in anger throws jeans from window saying you can't leave now and mocks her help help help...hear the tone?.....bashes door tells her to come out...she is severley frightened...she has her phone so hits the RECORD button and it has recorded the scene......She threatens him with this and Oscar who can not afford to have his career and ego damaged by this is in a frenzy gets guns and totes her down...knowing the phone has evidence he locks the phone as he already knew Reevas code, so he changes it and pretends he doesn't know what it is so cops can't access it.
Ok so I have fully speculated without evidence here...but there is something on ipad/phone and something about safe that just don't add up. There has been no mention in forensics as to if semen was present..or if shower had been used....if kitchen showed signs of food prep etc....if they had had sex...so I speculate...however what to hot blooded couples do between 10 and 1pm, they have sex, then they get hungry after romping...eat, drink...cups by bed...food in gut...

 

[steveml]

The judge will be aware that this case is being watched by the world and that the S.A. justice system is also on trial here. she will want to be seen to give a clear message that being white and wealthy does not mean that you are above the law....

I disagree with this. Judge Masipa appears to be calm and competent, certainly not one to be bothered about media hype. I've seen the tabloid columns 'needs to send a clear message across SA' etc. This sells newspapers, but it doesn't allow Judge Masipa to amend the law. She is quite renowned for passing quite harsh sentences, but this has been consistent - irrespective of whether the accused was black,white, rich or poor.

 

[steveml]

I'm very new and only a first post...but I've been trying to ascertain what would cause Oscar to be soooo aggressive..and it would have to be a threat to his brand and ego.
So the evening goes....
Oscar was going to do something else that evening but Reeva says lets stay at home...he thinks good...I get sex! Oscar is charged up with herbal testosterone...he watches ..now he's super revved up and expects some hard sex....he sets up the ipad and films their intimate scene...doesn't tell Reeva about it till after...Reeva DOES not like this and gets very upset....he tries to talk her down...says he will download it to dongle and put in his safe.....she is still pissed off...doesnt like it at all and says she is leaving and he better get rid of it or she will sue him...it gets heated, he gets agro, she runs to bathroom with pants...he chases with bat she drops pants on floor hides in loo...he smashes bat against bath in anger throws jeans from window saying you can't leave now and mocks her help help help...hear the tone?.....bashes door tells her to come out...she is severley frightened...she has her phone so hits the RECORD button and it has recorded the scene......She threatens him with this and Oscar who can not afford to have his career and ego damaged by this is in a frenzy gets guns and totes her down...knowing the phone has evidence he locks the phone as he already knew Reevas code, so he changes it and pretends he doesn't know what it is so cops can't access it.
Ok so I have fully speculated without evidence here...but there is something on ipad/phone and something about safe that just don't add up. There has been no mention in forensics as to if semen was present..or if shower had been used....if kitchen showed signs of food prep etc....if they had had sex...so I speculate...however what to hot blooded couples do between 10 and 1pm, they have sex, then they get hungry after romping...eat, drink...cups by bed...food in gut...

That's the quickest murder/mystery I've ever read! :smile:

 

[Viper]

The law is hazy imo, his fairyland story could still on it's own be considered murder.

I disagree with this. Judge Masipa appears to be calm and competent, certainly not one to be bothered about media hype. I've seen the tabloid columns 'needs to send a clear message across SA' etc. This sells newspapers, but it doesn't allow Judge Masipa to amend the law. She is quite renowned for passing quite harsh sentences, but this has been consistent - irrespective of whether the accused was black,white, rich or poor.

Who said anything about any media outlets of any kind? Where did you get that? And why is James different topic attached? Not following you at all.

 

[Insp.Dots]

That's not quite right. Mangena's evidence was:

1st shot - hits RS in the hip
2nd shot - misses
3rd/4th shots - he can't say which came first but one hit her on the right arm and one was the head shot.

His main point was there had to be a pause between the first and the third/fourth shots because RS moved from standing behind the door to slumped on the mag rack with her arms up in a defensive position shielding her head.

Roux brought up the double tap argument, but Mangena dismissed it. I thought Roux looked deflated during Mangena's testimony - possibly because he was such good witness and Roux had nothing decent to refute his 'pause' testimony.

On the double tap point - I did firearms training years ago and became relatively proficient at double taps. But there's no way I would describe myself as a 'professional'. It's not really too difficult to master. However, I think that's pretty irrelevant as the ballistics evidence rules out any double taps, other than possibly for the 3rd/4th shots.

Yes, with regards to 3rd/4th shots maybe that was a double tap. Magenta said he thought she had her hands up by her head in a defensive position. She's then shot in one arm and then the other while by the sounds of it still held up......no time to react from the shot through the arm before the other shot hand/head.
Not sure that makes much difference mind. Cannot begin to imagine the fear that poor girl felt

 

[Gavel Rash]

Yes I have probably let my imagination run...however there has been nil mention of any side details....who got the dongle that was in safe? Was it inspected? What are its contents? Why was safe important? And watch case? Someone mentioned the possible hiding of SIM card, told to him to do by persons he called that morning, from phone when he went upstairs after Stander got there, hence why the cover was off in bathroom.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Good point .
I still don't think it should have been removed from the scene .
I wondered if it might have had info on from the previous assault case that was settled . Clearly he wouldn't want info about that coming out . Must have been something he needed to hide on it IMO .
The desperate need for a watch also seems very fishy As well as the theft of one Supposedly all professional staff were searched and nothing was found .
I think in the UK all technology items would be seized or at least have to be left at the scene .

I agree. The memory sticks had the details of his offshore bank accounts as I remember. I do feel that Reeva was let down by police at the start of their investigation. So many errors made that could easily have an affect on the outcome of the trial.

 

[steveml]

Who said anything about any media outlets of any kind? Where did you get that? And why is James different topic attached? Not following you at all.

Can you provide your source for where you heard that the Judge would be sending a specific message, I presumed it was via the media?

The attachment was a simple posting error.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes I have probably let my imagination run...however there has been nil mention of any side details....who got the dongle that was in safe? Was it inspected? What are its contents? Why was safe important? And watch case? Someone mentioned the possible hiding of SIM card, told to him to do by persons he called that morning, from phone when he went upstairs after Stander got there, hence why the cover was off in bathroom.

I think we would all like to know why he was allowed to have his family remove potential evidence from the scene .
I think you may have just answered my question about why having a watch was so important !!! Lightbulb moment for me ?
Does anyone know if the police realised in time that a sim was missing and retrieved it for evidence ?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have watched and listened to the iPad session in court and I cannot hear exactly what was said about iPad 2 but I may have misunderstood as to whether both sets of information were of the same date but both sets of web access bookmarks were the same. Sorry if I have confused anyone. I find it very difficult to hear some of the feed. Roux didn't cross examine Col. Sales, other to ask whether him knew who or how many people had accessed the websites. Col. Sales says he doesn't know.

Right at the end of the session I heard Roux say to Olwage "You cannot stop him doing that". That came right after Nel had asked asked for time off to speak to witnesses he was going to call next week and as the court rose. I have assumed he was telling Olwage that they could not stop Nel asking for the extra time (earlier Nel had told the court he had discussed this with Roux and he was OK with it). Did anyone read anything else into the whisper?

 

[Viper]

I'm very new and only a first post...but I've been trying to ascertain what would cause Oscar to be soooo aggressive..and it would have to be a threat to his brand and ego.
So the evening goes....
Oscar was going to do something else that evening but Reeva says lets stay at home...he thinks good...I get sex! Oscar is charged up with herbal testosterone...he watches ..now he's super revved up and expects some hard sex....he sets up the ipad and films their intimate scene...doesn't tell Reeva about it till after...Reeva DOES not like this and gets very upset....he tries to talk her down...says he will download it to dongle and put in his safe.....she is still pissed off...doesnt like it at all and says she is leaving and he better get rid of it or she will sue him...it gets heated, he gets agro, she runs to bathroom with pants...he chases with bat she drops pants on floor hides in loo...he smashes bat against bath in anger throws jeans from window saying you can't leave now and mocks her help help help...hear the tone?.....bashes door tells her to come out...she is severley frightened...she has her phone so hits the RECORD button and it has recorded the scene......She threatens him with this and Oscar who can not afford to have his career and ego damaged by this is in a frenzy gets guns and totes her down...knowing the phone has evidence he locks the phone as he already knew Reevas code, so he changes it and pretends he doesn't know what it is so cops can't access it.
Ok so I have fully speculated without evidence here...but there is something on ipad/phone and something about safe that just don't add up. There has been no mention in forensics as to if semen was present..or if shower had been used....if kitchen showed signs of food prep etc....if they had had sex...so I speculate...however what to hot blooded couples do between 10 and 1pm, they have sex, then they get hungry after romping...eat, drink...cups by bed...food in gut...

I like your thought process! Going to the value of his brand is very strong, that is where the money is to be sure, and since he has shown that he will murder it is definitely possible that he would murder for money. It made me recollect the herbal concoction that was very similar to testosterone that was found in the crime scene along with a needle - because that could get him banned from sports and his Olympic medals could be pulled back. Follow the money in this case leads to his brand and his ability to continue to compete!

 

[Val1]

The defence explanation will need to be good as I think their version was that OP found RS slumped on the toilet. It will be interesting to hear their Experts interpretations of the evidence won't it?
I wonder Roux really thinks happened....they must get frustrated by OP's continual note passing. Someone earlier said he considered himself superior to everyone, others who have met him say he is a total charmer with total empathy for others
I think the main test will be when he testifies...he is used to speaking to an enthralled audience who all applaud, this is going to be the biggest teller for me. He can't charm his way out of this.
FWIW I suspect he may have already gone against Rouxs advice at times, I truly hope the 'Truth will out' and IF he is guilty it will be proven beyond doubt and without any cause for future appeal.

bbm For anyone like me that had watched the JA trial, this surely is familiar.

I do have a question regarding the autopsy though, I didn't hear any mention of a rape kit analysis to determine if she had had recent sexual relations and with whom. Anyone know if that's coming down the pike?

 

[minor4th]

Wonder if Mrs. Stipp will be one of the last State witnesses? We have heard from all the other ear witnesses helpful to the prosecution, but we haven't heard from her.

Here's an early article that apparently references her comment:

And The Sun is reporting neighbours of the London Olympian have described hearing three gunshots, 10 minutes of silence, then three more shots in the early hours of the morning.

"There were three gunshots and a woman's screams. Almost ten minutes later there were three more shots," the wife of a neighbour who rushed to the scene reportedly said.

I'll see if I can find anything else from her to see what we might expect if she is to testify.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Oscar must have told his sister he put the SIM card in with his phones...she goes and gets it. He tells his brother there is incriminating video in safe...he goes to get it. Why we're these people given carte blanche access to crime scene?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Two other witnesses yet to testify are immediate, either side neighbours...wonder what they heard. Bugler was miles away in comparison. So Nel has some sharp ears to come yet.

 

[Really?]

I don't believe he was too scared to put the lights on, but not too scared to scream and let the intruder know he was coming

I don't believe he was too befuddled with panic to say something to Reeva while he was standing right next to her

I don't believe anyone could hit a cricket bat against a flimsy internal door hard enough for a neighbour 170 metres away to hear and not actually manage to dent it......four times no less

I don't believe he really asked Stander to call an ambulance in that first phone call. If he did, why had Stander not done so by the time Stipp was on the scene?

I don't believe anyone can run around trying to break down doors, summon help, put on legs, look for phones screaming all the while. Screaming takes a lot of breath and energy

He's a liar. That the physical evidence is just about consistent with his story is because his story has been constructed around the physical evidence that he and his lawyers could surmise in advance would be there.

But there's not a single part of me that believes him.

:goodpost:.....I don't believe him either......:jail:

 

[Gavel Rash]

That blood near bed, near power switch, on watches was Oscar retrieving Reevas phone to change settings and get his sim out and place in the watch case..

 

[Interested Bystander]

Wonder if Mrs. Stipp will be one of the last State witnesses? We have heard from all the other ear witnesses helpful to the prosecution, but we haven't heard from her.

Here's an early article that apparently references her comment:



I'll see if I can find anything else from her to see what we might expect if she is to testify.

So they both heard 6 shots - and yet nobody other than the Stipps claims there were 6 shots. Did OP shoot into the air from his balcony one wonders. Nobody has mentioned how many bullets, if any, were left in his gun. Though equally nobody knows how many were in there to start with.

 

[katydid23]

MOO means my own opinion

I always thought it mean My Opinion Only. [Same difference I suppose]:moo:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I like your thought process! Going to the value of his brand is very strong, that is where the money is to be sure, and since he has shown that he will murder it is definitely possible that he would murder for money. It made me recollect the herbal concoction that was very similar to testosterone that was found in the crime scene along with a needle - because that could get him banned from sports and his Olympic medals could be pulled back. Follow the money in this case leads to his brand and his ability to continue to compete!

His brand was definitely his biggest asset . So if a small argument got out of hand and he assaulted her ( minor assault before shooting ) he would fear for that brand if he thought she could prove it and was likely to tell .
This has always been one of my private thoughts about a possible motive.
Reeva probably wouldn't tolerate even a minor domestic violence incident given her beliefs. It is so sad that she was about to give a speech on that very subject .