Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Insp.Dots]

After hearing the ballistics witness describe the horrific effects of the black talon bullets, I can't imagine a scenario where OP could have felt terribly threatened. The mythical intruder was behind a solid door in a very confined space with OP outside pointing a gun full of hollow point bullets, any one of which would stop said intruder dead in his tracks if he burst forth from the cubicle to face the armed and ready OP. Where was the supposed danger to OP in that situation? If there was one thing OP premediatated, it was choosing the deadly black talons over regular ammo, indicating he well knew their effect and imo felt no fear until he realized the ramifications to himself of what he'd just done.

Good post and points. BUT.. he used the same gun regularly at the range and that kind of bullet I suspect was used with the water melon shot as it would cause the complete annihilation of the melon. I am so glad these bullets are illegal now. Also possible his defense could say they have an advantage as will only hit one person and not others around. IMO OP is a typical playbook...fast cars, best toys best guns etc..all used to show off to his friends. For all we know they could have exactly the same bullets doesn't make them bad people.
Thank God in the UK we have no guns unless for specific purposes.
I have teenage Sons and we have conversations about safety when out. A lot of youngsters over here carry knives. A lot get attacked with their own knives....so if they weren't carrying it they wouldn't have been stabbed...my point being if there is no weapon there is less chance of attack in that circumstance.

Sorry to rant but hope I make some sense

 

[Viper]

that certainly lowers the odds that he was in a panicked state, in deep terror, and didn't know what was behind that door.

I wont be silly enough to put a percentage on those odds ...

You know the ballistic expert was hard for me to understand because he had a speaking pattern that put me off and he used very few words. But Roux was badgering him about rapid firing a pistol and hitting a target, I believe Roux wanted to make it seem that OP was proficient at the double tap. The officer said no, OP could not do it and the average gun owner could not do it. I smiled when he said he could do it because he competes in competitions! Roux was visibly frustrated with all if his testimony!

I know too many of the details if the case, but some of the alternative scenerios that the DT have I am not following. How are they using double tap in their defense?

 

[Trooper]

hard to track a ricocheting bullet.. Mungeena was nifty in finding one mark of the wall of that particular bullet.. I would think that ricochet would have lost a lot of its integrity and power by just the one ding on the tiles, and probably wouldn't have enough momentum in it to dent a tile again, it would still be an operative bullet, even so.. even if it zinged off another tile.. it would still dent human flesh..

 

[Trooper]

You know the ballistic expert was hard for me to understand because he had a speaking pattern that put me off and he used very few words. But Roux was badgering him about rapid firing a pistol and hitting a target, I believe Roux wanted to make it seem that OP was proficient at the double tap. The officer said no, OP could not do it and the average gun owner could not do it. I smiled when he said he could do it because he competes in competitions! Roux was visibly frustrated with all if his testimony!

I know too many of the details if the case, but some of the alternative scenerios that the DT have I am not following. How are they using double tap in their defense?

Roux backed right off the double tap.. he floated it, but it didn't take hold with the Captain.. he moved away from it, and went into the claim that he had reports that said it could be done, that is, the double tap might line up with the head shot being first ( which means Reeva didn't scream,,, Roux has to get the scream eradicated ) ..

The Captain merely invited him to bring those reports to his office and he would find some time to peruse them.

it all ended badly for Roux. he suddenly wanted the captain off the stand , to make dust, and begone.

I watched Oscars face during this segment, . he was sitting behind Roux and one could see him when Roux was talking.. Oscar was looking at Mungheena with the deepest envy.. a man who had learned a deep respect for guns. having a 'deep love' for guns was useless without that. It was all written across Oscars face.

 

[Viper]

Roux backed right off the double tap.. he floated it, but it didn't take hold with the Captain.. he moved away from it, and went into the claim that he had reports that said it could be done, that is, the double tap might line up with the head shot being first ( which means Reeva didn't scream,,, Roux has to get the scream eradicated ) ..

The Captain merely invited him to bring those reports to his office and he would find some time to peruse them.

it all ended badly for Roux. he suddenly wanted the captain off the stand , to make dust, and begone.

I watched Oscars face during this segment, . he was sitting behind Roux and one could see him when Roux was talking.. Oscar was looking at Mungheena with the deepest envy.. a man who had learned a deep respect for guns. having a 'deep love' for guns was useless without that. It was all written across Oscars face.

Ooooooh! Ok, now I get it!

Poor OP... Maybe he should have pled to something and just took his medicine, at least that way he would have left prison with the money. As it goes now Roux will spend it for him, this is a very expensive show that he's paying for.

Thank you for getting me up to speed!

 

[Trooper]

Ooooooh! Ok, now I get it!

Poor OP... Maybe he should have pled to something and just took his medicine, at least that way he would have left prison with the money. As it goes now Roux will spend it for him, this is a very expensive show that he's paying for.

Thank you for getting me up to speed!

and thankyou for enlarging my appreciation of the art of gunfire. *appreciated..

this cricket match I was watching has now been washed out by rain.. ( it took place in Chittagong , Bangladesh. a huge thunderstorm. So I will now return to my real time , Sydney Au and bid you good night, Viper.

:countsheep:

 

[Insp.Dots]

Specifically, OP didn't claim he heard RS get out of bed. Just the result of her getting out of bed to go to the bathroom.

OP's entire alibi:

"I got up and went on outside on my deck.
When I was on the deck Reeva got up to go pee.
I grabbed my gun and went into the bathrrom.
She was using the toilet.
But since I didn't know it was her I shot her.
Three times. One bullet missed."

It's probably the worst alibi in the history of crime.

His explanations for the witnesses may also be the worst in the history of crime:

"None of them heard me killing Reeva. That's impossible.
What they heard was me after I killed Reeva.
I made the exact sounds of a terrified woman being attacked and shot 4 times with a gun.
Strange coincidence, right?
And Baba? I was telling him everything was fine with me.
I didn't tell him I just shot Reeva and she was still alive even though I just screamed for help because...um.... um....."

His story is very simple. And stupid.
OPG

His complete version hasn't yet been told so saying it is simple and stupid is irrational. No disrespect

 

[DebinGA]

IIRC, Capt. Mangela said the placement of RS's injuries made the double-tap malarkey impossible as the 3 impacts would all be in her middle. I bet Roux's expert will claim the ricochet was the first shot, prompting a standing RS to immediately bend down from the waist in reaction, where the 2nd shot hit her in the head, and no screams occurred.

 

[LemonMousse]

Four things....

1) He screamed, as he set off on his mission, "Get out of my house. Reeva, call the police".
Who screams in full sentences? No one. You can't. All of your puff is taken up by the scream, you can't come out with a string of words at the same time. At best you could manage one word or possibly two....but two entire sentences? And the words would be so distorted they would be hard to understand.

No, this (if it happened) was yelled or shouted. So if they weren't screamed, why has he used the word "screamed" in his affidavit? I wonder now......(strokes chin)

2) If he got up to bring in the fans because it was such a hot night, why did he immediately close the windows, blinds and curtains? I can't think of a better way to make a room hotter if I tried.

And why did he wait until after he'd extinguished the only source of light (from outside) before plugging them in and switching them on - an easy thing to do with a bit of light, very difficult in pitch black.

We know he did this because one fan was plugged in but not switched on....so he must have been disturbed by the "intruder" in the act, and he already told us this happened after the curtains were closed.

3) The jeans: They do look freshly laundered as some of you have pointed out. Although the belt through the straps would suggest that they have been worn, if only briefly.

Reasonable explanations could be: there's a washing line nearby that they fell off or they were left there accidentally by Reeva earlier when she went swimming. In which case, it's irrelevant.

But I doubt either of these are the true explanation, because Nel showed them for a reason and it can only be because he plans to raise the matter with OP (and he can't really ask about things without introducing the evidence for them...same goes for the broken door and window, I suspect). He's hardly going to bother if they just fell off a washing line. And I think his drawing attention to them must mean that they are actually Reeva's.

So - they got there by some less understandable way, probably. I think they must have come out of a window.

Why would Reeva be drying clothes out of a bedroom window? Has she just washed them there? Why, when there's a fully equipped laundry room downstairs?

If she was just rinsing off a little stain, then again....why do that in the bathroom where there are no laundry products?

Is she just airing them? Who airs their jeans? Really...who?

I think they were probably thrown out. The only non-sinister reason I can think of it that OP did it to tease her, in which case one or other of them would have retrieved them.

What woman willingly leaves a pair of jeans outside overnight? She didn't have a lot of clothes with her, so she'd have needed them.

I think he either threw them out in temper, or she did to try and get someone's attention. No other explanation really makes sense.

4) Why....really, why, why, why.....on a very hot night did two young, good looking, new lovers go to bed with their clothes on? Because it's not only that Reeva bizarrely decided to sleep in her exercise clothes, but OP had shorts on too.

Hardly modesty, because I'm sure they've seen each other naked before. If they haven't gotten intimate in that way yet (and I think that's unlikely given that neither are virgins and ST said OP had cheated with Reeva) then why are they sleeping in the same bed? And it can't have have been to keep warm because it was a particularly hot night.

If Nel is as good as people say he is, he should easily be able to make mince meat of this stupid story.

 

[Viper]

His complete version hasn't yet been told so saying it is simple and stupid is irrational. No disrespect

If you have been giving any thought about what his complete version might include please share it with me. I generally think that he won't say much more of anything other than what he said in his affidavit, so I would love to hear a different way for him to improve the story.

 

[foxbluff]

The more I learn about this case, the more often something TV's Judge Judy said runs through my mind: "If it doesn't make any sense, then it's not true!"

 

[Viper]

Four things....

1) He screamed, as he set off on his mission, "Get out of my house. Reeva, call the police".
Who screams in full sentences? No one. You can't. All of your puff is taken up by the scream, you can't come out with a string of words at the same time. At best you could manage one word or possibly two....but two entire sentences? And the words would be so distorted they would be hard to understand.

No, this (if it happened) was yelled or shouted. So if they weren't screamed, why has he used the word "screamed" in his affidavit? I wonder now......(strokes chin)

2) If he got up to bring in the fans because it was such a hot night, why did he immediately close the windows, blinds and curtains? I can't think of a better way to make a room hotter if I tried.

And why did he wait until after he'd extinguished the only source of light (from outside) before plugging them in and switching them on - an easy thing to do with a bit of light, very difficult in pitch black.

We know he did this because one fan was plugged in but not switched on....so he must have been disturbed by the "intruder" in the act, and he already told us this happened after the curtains were closed.

3) The jeans: They do look freshly laundered as some of you have pointed out. Although the belt through the straps would suggest that they have been worn, if only briefly.

Reasonable explanations could be: there's a washing line nearby that they fell off or they were left there accidentally by Reeva earlier when she went swimming. In which case, it's irrelevant.

But I doubt either of these are the true explanation, because Nel showed them for a reason and it can only be because he plans to raise the matter with OP (and he can't really ask about things without introducing the evidence for them...same goes for the broken door and window, I suspect). He's hardly going to bother if they just fell off a washing line. And I think his drawing attention to them must mean that they are actually Reeva's.

So - they got there by some less understandable way, probably. I think they must have come out of a window.

Why would Reeva be drying clothes out of a bedroom window? Has she just washed them there? Why, when there's a fully equipped laundry room downstairs?

If she was just rinsing off a little stain, then again....why do that in the bathroom where there are no laundry products?

Is she just airing them? Who airs their jeans? Really...who?

I think they were probably thrown out. The only non-sinister reason I can think of it that OP did it to tease her, in which case one or other of them would have retrieved them.

What woman willingly leaves a pair of jeans outside overnight? She didn't have a lot of clothes with her, so she'd have needed them.

I think he either threw them out in temper, or she did to try and get someone's attention. No other explanation really makes sense.

4) Why....really, why, why, why.....on a very hot night did two young, good looking, new lovers go to bed with their clothes on? Because it's not only that Reeva bizarrely decided to sleep in her exercise clothes, but OP had shorts on too.

Hardly modesty, because I'm sure they've seen each other naked before. If they haven't gotten intimate in that way yet (and I think that's unlikely given that neither are virgins and ST said OP had cheated with Reeva) then why are they sleeping in the same bed? And it can't have have been to keep warm because it was a particularly hot night.

If Nel is as good as people say he is, he should easily be able to make mince meat of this stupid story.

There are jeans all over the place! On the floor, on the grass, probably some on the roof too! And the duvet on the floor?

Reeva was dressed, and her bag was packed to leave, period IMO! No way a woman gets in to bed at 10:00 dressed in her day clothes with her bag neatly packed on a sofa! OP was in his underwear, I believe. So what's going on with the jeans and the duvet on the floor?

 

[steveml]

I think it's in the interest of justice, Reeva's justice, to recognize OP's story for what it is - a total and complete fabrication made up 5 days after he killed her in an attempt to explain away the evidence and the witnesses.

Opinions and beliefs are fine, but to question justice at this stage is the very antithesis of justice. The use of the word justice implies fairness (amongst many other moral things). We're not even halfway through the trial, and the accused has not even had a chance to speak yet.

 

[LemonMousse]

I don't believe he was too scared to put the lights on, but not too scared to scream and let the intruder know he was coming

I don't believe he was too befuddled with panic to say something to Reeva while he was standing right next to her

I don't believe anyone could hit a cricket bat against a flimsy internal door hard enough for a neighbour 170 metres away to hear and not actually manage to dent it......four times no less

I don't believe he really asked Stander to call an ambulance in that first phone call. If he did, why had Stander not done so by the time Stipp was on the scene?

I don't believe anyone can run around trying to break down doors, summon help, put on legs, look for phones screaming all the while. Screaming takes a lot of breath and energy

He's a liar. That the physical evidence is just about consistent with his story is because his story has been constructed around the physical evidence that he and his lawyers could surmise in advance would be there.

But there's not a single part of me that believes him.

 

[LemonMousse]

There are jeans all over the place! On the floor, on the grass, probably some on the roof too! And the duvet on the floor?

Reeva was dressed, and her bag was packed to leave, period IMO! No way a woman gets in to bed at 10:00 dressed in her day clothes with her bag neatly packed on a sofa! OP was in his underwear, I believe. So what's going on with the jeans and the duvet on the floor?

He was in his underwear? So in amongst all the screaming and beating down doors he managed to get dressed? Because those shorts that are covered in blood are not "underwear". No 28 year old man wears underwear that almost reaches their knees.

 

[Cherwell]

That's a very good point. My take on intruder suggestion is that if you thought that an armed intruder was behind the door, you'd stand quite far back from the door as the closer you are, the less time you have to assess and aim. If prosecution could prove that he shot from very close to the door, it would seem more probable that he knew who was behind the door, and knew that they didn't pose a threat. I think the spent cartridges may have been intended to be an indicator, although it was mentioned in court that these could have been kicked or moved during the investigation.

If I was in that situation, I would be back in the passageway, using the wall as a shield, just peering around the doorway. Who's to say the person in the toilet isn't going to come bursting out all guns blazing?

And I too think OP must have bellowed at Reeva "Get out of my house!" and then cleverly incorporated it into his story in case any of the neighbours had heard.
(We still haven't heard from them all, have we.)

 

[Mystymiss]

I was just thinking that due to OPs & RSs earlier argument I'm betting his so called scream to the intruder "Get out of MY House!" was really meant for RS. Why? because OPs mad and he is letting RS know who's house she is in... Why would you say that to an intruder? That would not be important. JMO

 

[Insp.Dots]

IIRC, Capt. Mangela said the placement of RS's injuries made the double-tap malarkey impossible as the 3 impacts would all be in her middle. I bet Roux's expert will claim the ricochet was the first shot, prompting a standing RS to immediately bend down from the waist in reaction, where the 2nd shot hit her in the head, and no screams occurred.

The defence explanation will need to be good as I think their version was that OP found RS slumped on the toilet. It will be interesting to hear their Experts interpretations of the evidence won't it?
I wonder Roux really thinks happened....they must get frustrated by OP's continual note passing. Someone earlier said he considered himself superior to everyone, others who have met him say he is a total charmer with total empathy for others
I think the main test will be when he testifies...he is used to speaking to an enthralled audience who all applaud, this is going to be the biggest teller for me. He can't charm his way out of this.
FWIW I suspect he may have already gone against Rouxs advice at times, I truly hope the 'Truth will out' and IF he is guilty it will be proven beyond doubt and without any cause for future appeal.

 

[Viper]

I don't believe he was too scared to put the lights on, but not too scared to scream and let the intruder know he was coming

I don't believe he was too befuddled with panic to say something to Reeva while he was standing right next to her

I don't believe anyone could hit a cricket bat against a flimsy internal door hard enough for a neighbour 170 metres away to hear and not actually manage to dent it......four times no less

I don't believe he really asked Stander to call an ambulance in that first phone call. If he did, why had Stander not done so by the time Stipp was on the scene?

I don't believe anyone can run around trying to break down doors, summon help, put on legs, look for phones screaming all the while. Screaming takes a lot of breath and energy

He's a liar. That the physical evidence is just about consistent with his story is because his story has been constructed around the physical evidence that he and his lawyers could surmise in advance would be there.

But there's not a single part of me that believes him.

You should send this over to Mr. Nel. :smile:

I am sure OP is going to have a very difficult time addressing the questions you have. I don't believe that claiming "I was super afraid and fantastically vulnerable" is going to be a sufficient answer for all of the questions that Mr. Nel will be asking.

 

[LemonMousse]

If I was in that situation, I would be back in the passageway, using the wall as a shield, just peering around the doorway. Who's to say the person in the toilet isn't going to come bursting out all guns blazing?

And I too think OP must have bellowed at Reeva "Get out of my house!" and then cleverly incorporated it into his story in case any of the neighbours had heard.
(We still haven't heard from them all, have we.)

Bear in mind, that while he was in the passage way he could have had absolutely no clue that the "intruder" was in the toilet. For all he knew there was a bad man (maybe more than one, as he alludes to in his affidavit) loose in his bathroom - no doubt fully expecting him because he'd just screamed at them.

So poor, vulnerable on his stumps Oscar willingly chose to risk an ambush in the pitch black all to save the life of the woman he loved.

Yeah, right.