Trial Discussion Thread #17

[minor4th]

If it was my daughter, I would want to know exactly what he "thought" was going on. I would want to walk down that hall in his shoes, experience what he says he experienced and then after understanding it as completely as I could, then comparing that with what he is about to testify to, make as objective a judgment as possible in a very difficult case.

Nothing wrong with that. And I think this is the process the judge will engage in.

 

[soozieqtips]

If it was my daughter, I would want to know exactly what he "thought" was going on. I would want to walk down that hall in his shoes, experience what he says he experienced and then after understanding it as completely as I could, then comparing that with what he is about to testify to, make as objective a judgment as possible in a very difficult case.

That's a very calm and reasoned approach, but I suspect if it was really your daughter, and you knew he had frightened her, upset her, humiliated her in public, criticised just about everything about her... then you'd be more concerned about getting justice for her, and not so concerned about the man who ended her life in a toilet. It's easier to think rationally when it's hypothetical.

 

[jay-jay]

I see what you mean. But is it so unreasonable that the only alternative explanation is that he intentionally murdered Reeva?

I don't think it's unreasonable for the only alternative explanation to be that he intentionally murdered Reeva .. in a fit of pique. It happens, on average, 3 times every two weeks in the UK .. and even more frequently in SA (although I don't have the exact figures, that's what I am led to believe). It's actually highly likely, especially with what we know of their relationship of textbook abuse and his volatile personality .. throw gun ownership into the mix and you've got a murder case like this on your hands.


* apologies if I have misunderstood the 'unreasonable' meaning .. I couldn't work out whether you actually mean 'is it' or 'it is' .. it didn't read right when I was reading it the way you wrote it!

 

[Really?]

Anyone know how well Oscar can go down stairs without his legs?

Yikes.....don't want to go there....the first time I saw the police pics......the high up shooting downward angle of the camera was enough.:moo:

 

[soozieqtips]

I don't think it's unreasonable for the only alternative explanation to be that he intentionally murdered Reeva .. in a fit of pique. It happens, on average, 3 times every two weeks in the UK .. and even more frequently in SA (although I don't have the exact figures, that's what I am led to believe). It's actually highly likely, especially with what we know of their relationship of textbook abuse and his volatile personality .. throw gun ownership into the mix and you've got a murder case like this on your hands.

I agree. What's so unreasonable about thinking they had a huge fight that escalated over a period of time until it got out of control and OP flipped and shot her in a rage. I doubt he was thinking "I know. I'll go and shoot her". But I could see him being livid that she'd shut herself in the toilet to get away from him and that he got the gun initially to scare her, and then maybe telling her he's got a gun and that he'll use it if she doesn't come out. She doesn't obey him and he loses it and shoots her. I'm sure many many women die like that all the time.

When I was with my nutty ex years ago, the one thing he couldn't stand was if I wanted to leave the room while things cooled down. He'd barricade the door so I couldn't get past him, and if ever I did manage to get out of the room and into another room (with a lock) he'd scream and bash the door to try and get me out. It used to drive him absolutely mad if I removed myself from the scene, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that OP was mad as hell that she'd locked herself in another room away from him, and not a stretch of the imagination at all to think he just shot in a rage without thinking of the consequences. He acted on impulse and out of sheer anger in my opinion.

 

[Feynman]

Toilet room door has nothing to do with it at this early point. They are in the bathroom proper, possibly on their way to the bedroom.

So let's go charging down the hallway screaming? That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[IfIMay]

Noisy Fan - I appreciate your presentation of the defense case and attempt to get people to look at this from a different perspective. I don't think it's really being thought through all the way through if anyone thinks they would hit the alarm button and wait for security when an armed burglar is a few feet away and you have a gun that you can use to stop them from hurting you and your girlfriend.

But that's just me ....

I haven't seen anyone suggest he push and wait. Most people would sound the silent alarm (since you are obviously paying for security) AND get out.

 

[jay-jay]

But you changed the scenario. The intruder is not unarmed or unthreatening. He's armed and he's about to enter the room shooting.

How about, then .. if he was always so worried about that situation arising .. that he made sure he set his alarm system, that he made sure the bathroom window was *locked*, that he made sure the ladders were secure, that he made sure the balcony doors were shut at night, that he made sure his aircon was working?

.. and yet he didn't do any of those things? That tells me that he actually was never really that worried about the security of his house, and that he wouldn't have suddenly, and mistakenly, suspected someone was climbing through the bathroom window and go on red alert (his text about the washing machine was just him joking around .. it probably made him jump, like things sometimes do, and he decided to make a bit of a joke of it to his mates via twitter). He was never that worried about being broken into .. he couldn't have been to have been so lax with his security .. so why, all of a sudden, is he now so worried that the minute he hears a tiny noise (and seeing as his girlfriend is stopping over, is more than likely going to be her) he thinks it's an intruder and goes on a shooting spree?

 

[jay-jay]

BIB - from his affidavit:

My prosthetic legs were off.
We were deeply in love and I could not be happier.

BIB - more information than necessary and totally irrelevant to the events of that night. But he obviously felt the need to add it... for some reason.

I read his Plea Explanation again earlier this evening and there is one heck of a lot of him making reference to a 'non existent argument'/denying there was any argument. Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

 

[Noisy Fan]

So let's go charging down the hallway screaming? That's a recipe for disaster.

Yea ... no charging! ... Where did we get "charging" from? I don't recall reading that or see him actually doing that. I see him moving down that first hall quietly and when there is enough separation from Reeva in the bed, maybe just before he rounds the first corner, then I see him offer his challenge and for Reeva to phone police. He then rounds the corner and proceeds to that last corner where he is able to see the empty bathroom and the toilet door. No running. No charging.

 

[Feynman]

I heard his testimony and I don't believe it was a theory put forward. He was very precise with the details and explained exactly why the hip shot must have been first, so I take that as a fact - a fact entered as evidence by the PT. Until that fact has been credibly demolished, then there's no reason to assume the ballistics expert doesn't know what he's talking about.

If you admit the possibility that this "fact" can be demolished, then it is not a fact; a fact is something indisputably true.

Here's a fact: Mangena presented a theory. And Magena could be mistaken. He's human after all. Humans make mistakes. And forensic ballistics is not like the current science of DNA or the inverse square law of gravitation. Ballistics experts can disagree on what the same crime scene implies.

 

[minor4th]

I haven't seen anyone suggest he push and wait. Most people would sound the silent alarm (since you are obviously paying for security) AND get out.

But he didn't think he could get out safely. That's the whole point

 

[sorrell skye]

If you gave that warning and they did not immediately surrender would you hesitate shooting them if you thought they were coming at you?

What is the evidence that OP thought the intruder(s) was/were coming toward him?

Did the toilet door suddenly fling open? No

Did he see an intruder with a weapon? No

 

[minor4th]

How about, then .. if he was always so worried about that situation arising .. that he made sure he set his alarm system, that he made sure the bathroom window was *locked*, that he made sure the ladders were secure, that he made sure the balcony doors were shut at night, that he made sure his aircon was working?

.. and yet he didn't do any of those things? That tells me that he actually was never really that worried about the security of his house, and that he wouldn't have suddenly, and mistakenly, suspected someone was climbing through the bathroom window and go on red alert (his text about the washing machine was just him joking around .. it probably made him jump, like things sometimes do, and he decided to make a bit of a joke of it to his mates via twitter). He was never that worried about being broken into .. he couldn't have been to have been so lax with his security .. so why, all of a sudden, is he now so worried that the minute he hears a tiny noise (and seeing as his girlfriend is stopping over, is more than likely going to be her) he thinks it's an intruder and goes on a shooting spree?

I was just talking about the scenario that was presented - not other theories or why anyone thinks it's a stupid or impossible scenario. The exact scenario presented - if there was really an armed intruder in the toilet who was going to come out shooting to kill ..under the same conditions that Oscar described, what would you do?

That's what was being asked but many who have undertaken to answer have changed the scenario or commented on its unlikelihood etc.

 

[Feynman]

Yea ... no charging! ... Where did we get "charging" from? I don't recall reading that or see him actually doing that. I see him moving down that first hall quietly and when there is enough separation from Reeva in the bed, maybe just before he rounds the first corner, then I see him offer his challenge and for Reeva to phone police. He then rounds the corner and proceeds to that last corner where he is able to see the empty bathroom and the toilet door. No running. No charging.

Really? So now our hero, who has "a sense of terror rushing over him", and has images of rape, torture, mutilation, and other violations of the UN Charter dancing in his brain, is all of a sudden James Bond, perhaps sipping a martini along the way, quietly negotiating the hallway, calculating his distance from Reeva and the bed every step of the way so that at the perfect moment he can demand, perhaps in a woman's voice, "Get out of my house!" (how is not explained). Is that the picture we get from reading

"I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed."

 

[sorrell skye]

But you changed the scenario. The intruder is not unarmed or unthreatening. He's armed and he's about to enter the room shooting.

What is the evidence that the intruder is armed and about to enter the room shooting?

Did OP see an intruder? No

Did OP see a lethal weapon (gun, knife, etc.)? No

Did an intruder advance upon him with a lethal weapon while threatening to kill him? No

 

[minor4th]

What is the evidence that the intruder is armed and about to enter the room shooting?

Did OP see an intruder? No

Did OP see a lethal weapon (gun, knife, etc.)? No

Did an intruder advance upon him with a lethal weapon while threatening to kill him? No

Ugh. It was a hypothetical. It was asking you to assume that there actually was an armed intruder in the bathroom who was going to come out shooting. What would you do and would you be dead or alive at the end of it?

You are asking me questions that are totally unrelated to the hypothetical that I was responding to. Why?

 

[Feynman]

excerpted quote

They came in through the bathroom window. You know the song.

Protected by a silver spoon?

 

[Noisy Fan]

What is the evidence that OP thought the intruder(s) was/were coming toward him?

Did the toilet door suddenly fling open? No

Did he see an intruder with a weapon? No

They did not respond to his challenge and they were fiddling with the door they were hiding behind, possibly armed and ready to come at him.

I'll ask you something. For whose benefit would Oscar shout out giving away his position in the hall?

 

[minor4th]

Really? So now our hero, who has "a sense of terror rushing over him", and has images of rape, torture, mutilation, and other violations of the UN Charter dancing in his brain, is all of a sudden James Bond, perhaps sipping a martini along the way, quietly negotiating the hallway, calculating his distance from Reeva and the bed every step of the way so that at the perfect moment he can demand, perhaps in a woman's voice, "Get out of my house!" (how is not explained). Is that the picture we get from reading

"I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed."

I imagine he was creeping along the hallway until he got close the the entrance and shouted for Reeva to call the police and warned the perceived intruder to get out of his house.

I don't see charging - and I don't see martini sipping either.