Trial Discussion Thread #29

[lisasalinger]

I can't be the only person who hears the simpsons theme start to play in my head everytime i read the word's "The Standers".

Hi diddly ho neighbor...

 

[Giles]

Odd that OP doesn't remember the toilet flushing Pathologist-> Reeva's bladder was empty and according to police the bowl had no urine, so according to OP's evidence and his stealth hearing, Reeva wasn't in the loo to urinate.

That's an interesting point. I didn't know that the Police said there was no urine in it. Did Oscar say anything about having used it or flushed it at any time?

 

[lisasalinger]

None was offered. OP was not questioned about the damage to the metal plate on the tub.

I think the reason he had not been questioned on that is because the State experts could not determine what caused that damage, therefore OP can pretty much say anything and the State can't refute it.

 

[TorisMom003]

That's an interesting point. I didn't know that the Police said there was no urine in it. Did Oscar say anything about having used it or flushed it at any time?

No OP didn't say anything like that.

 

[jay-jay]

From this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all



I don't remember him mentioning this incident before, only the washing machine 'intruder'. Quite interesting article. This is the interviewer who was subjected to OP driving at 250 kilometres per hour (155mph), and who was told if he practised shooting more often, he could become 'deadly'.

Interesting article .. he does seem to have a lot of problems sleeping, by the sounds of it, and gets up to all sorts in the middle of the night because of it. That was written in Jan 2012, and even then the author of it picked up on several really worrying issues with him.

 

[crasshopper]

Wow, I watched a few youtubes about the South African prisons. Rough stuff. The only facility that seems "decent" is the Kirkwood Correctional Centre. If Pistorius goes to prison, I wonder which one he'll end up in. Will he be in protective custody (if there is such a thing in South Africa)?

I don't know of a state prison or penitentiary in the US that isn't really scary, only the federal system.

 

[DebinGA]

Me too! A quick guess is that it may be related to his ballistics expert that has yet to testify? Or the "wood sounds" need to be coming from some other location within the WC nearer to the door? Hmm... IDK. :smile:

A ballistics expert like Mangena? What would be helpful to OP I wonder?

 

[crasshopper]

That's an interesting point. I didn't know that the Police said there was no urine in it. Did Oscar say anything about having used it or flushed it at any time?

Police reports said no urine in the toilet bowl.

 

[delilah]

Police reports said no urine in the toilet bowl.

Did they? I've not read that before. Where did you get that from? Don't recall it coming up in court.

 

[DebinGA]

Interesting article .. he does seem to have a lot of problems sleeping, by the sounds of it, and gets up to all sorts in the middle of the night because of it. That was written in Jan 2012, and even then the author of it picked up on several really worrying issues with him.

Including driving 155 mph with a stranger in tow. OP was an accident waiting to happen long before Reeva had the misfortune to meet him. The NYT article also claimed, no doubt via OP, that the 2009 boat wreck was due to OP hitting a "submerged pier" iirc. Uh, no, it only became submerged after a most likely drunk OP ran the boat into it.

 

[jay-jay]

Imo as soon as you realise the bat was used before the gun it all makes sense, it really is a eureka moment.

Yes, I thought it was too far fetched to start off with, when I first came to this forum but it makes perfect sense to me now.

 

[crasshopper]

This is OT a bit but a while ago I posted this response and it was deleted, presumably by the moderators. Obviously, it is my opinion, but does anyone know why it may have been problematic?

...

I really can not see why people do not grasp what the sequence of events was in this case.

While the state has conceded that the shots may have come first their case does not depend on one order vs the other. I certainly understand why people have different opinion and doubts about the order of the 2 sets of sounds.

Anyway, cricket bat first or bullets, he PULLED the trigger 4 times, with marked accuracy, throught that door knowing he could or intending to mortally wound whoever was behind it.

Reeva's hands were in a defensive position BEFOREshe was shot in the head. Now for those that accept the defense contention that the shot to the head came first

WHY would REEVA have her hands raised to her head in defense if they weren't arguing, if she wasn't scared he was about to bash in the bathroom door, if she wasn't petrified by Oscar telling her he had a gun...

Otherwise you have to accept that the first shothit her HIP & she screamed in bloody terror. Again, WHY would her hands then go to her head in defense and not to her shattered hip???? (even entertaining that they moved from her hip to her head in those seconds) BECAUSE, she was under attack and she knew instinctively to expect MORE bullets.

The defensive position of her hands is IMMUTABLE direct evidence.

If the head shot came first and you accept Oscar's "version" Reeva's there would have been no wound through the web of her fingers/hand. And no, Oscar she wasn't washing her face at the time. Also, if she weren't afraid of oscar wouldn't she scream "Oscar...Help," after being shot in the hip or "Oscar, CALL THE POLICE!"

I believe it was premiditated, as we all know premeditation may be formed in 2 seconds. The hands to the head suggest she was afraid of what was coming.

Oscar likely can't tiptoe stealthily on his stumps, in his version she would have heard him approaching and he would have heard her moving in the bathroom . Assuming she was accustomed to the patter or lumbering gait of his stumps, she knew it was him approaching. UNLESS they were in a fight. This also explains why she wouldn't have spoken up when, according to his version he was screaming to call the police.

 

[crasshopper]

And here I thought you and I had so much in common. Then you go and prove me wrong, lol.

Thank goodness we agree about the trial!

I read it as sarcastic, oh well ;-)

 

[jay-jay]

If he did then just ......wow !!!
Not good grouping whilst shooting one handed in a state of panic ,in the dark whilst being unstable due to not wearing prosthetic 's ,
Ah yes I see exactly what he meant now he missed one !! Gotcha

BIB .. not only that, but the way he said it was almost like a joke .. like something he would say at the shooting range. I was gobsmacked when I heard him say what he did, and the way he said it.

 

[crasshopper]

Did they? I've not read that before. Where did you get that from? Don't recall it coming up in court.

From an article but I will look. Perhaps it was stipulated to.

 

[TipDog]

I also definitely think that and was my first thought so stated that a while back ,in fact if she thought he had a gun and was about to shot she may have even smashed it with her bare hands , I would do anything to attract attention under those circumstances Then as the trial unfolded I read about her being close to the door I just assumed she obviously didn't expect to be shot until of course she was.
I feel if she had any idea he had his gun in his hand after attempting to attract attention she would have been behind the wall on the left of the door ,or crouched down making herself as small as possible or stood up on the loo itself.
Basically I would have been anywhere in that loo other than in front of the door.
I think she may well have been frightened but not necessarily by the gun until the moment she was shot .
If she was in there terrified by the threat of the imaginary intruder then i can't accept that she would then be moving around ?
Lots of thoughts are continually swirling around in my mind which may well be answered by the end of the trial.

BIB

I think she'd have locked the door and then gotten down and away from the door if she thought there was an intruder (as per OP's version). I believe Nel suggested this as well, didn't he? The idea of her being up against the door suggests a familiarity with the danger. And I could imagine her screaming but also pleading with OP to back away and calm down. I don't think she believed he would actually shoot her until he did, in her hip, then her screaming would have intensified as she fell back over that magazine rack. But it's hard for me not to think that his gun wasn't present in her mind. She was primed, and not for the reasons OP claims, IMO.

I can even envision a scenario in which OP becomes quiet and she might have thought he'd left the bathroom, thus pressing herself up against the door to listen, just before the first shot.

Oh, such a horrible fate for her. Just thinking of all of it makes my stomach hurt.

 

[DebinGA]

This is OT a bit but a while ago I posted this response and it was deleted, presumably by the moderators. Obviously, it is my opinion, but does anyone know why it may have been problematic?

Good post imo. Maybe one of our Brit contingent took offense at your using the b-word to describe RS's "terror"?

 

[lisasalinger]

Funny how in times of trouble, usually of their own making, they find religion. What ticked me off the most was OP saying (in his out loud "prayer") that he would make sure that Reeva, if He found it was right for her to live, would serve Him and put Him first. OP didn't know that Reeva did not already do that and in fact had no right or place to say that for her.

MOO

In this video below, if you listen starting at 4:30 you can hear a clip of Justin Devaris talking about his interaction with Oscar that night. It's consistent with Dr. Stipp's testimony that OP was making all sorts of statements to God that night... take me away, help me, I'll dedicate my life to you...

I know this is highly subjective and all we can do is theorize on it, but in my belief, OP was praying to God because he knew exactly what he did. I do not subscribe to the belief that Oscar was a monster or cold-blooded person walking around waiting to kill. But I definitely subscribe to the belief that he was capable of killing.

I think he is a man that has some very deep-seeded issues and they had clearly become worse in recent years. Just look at those months leading up to the killing...

In late September, he shoots his gun through the sunroof after getting in to an argument with police officers.

In October, he and Samantha are having a really rough go of it in their relationship.

Around that time, he confronts van der Burgh in a public place and rattles the man enough so that he feels the need to legally address it.

Oscar flips out and violently threatens Mark Batchelor. Anybody who has seen the size of this man knows that you would have to be nutty to threaten him. He is also seen in this video clip below.

Oscar ends up getting whacked on the head at a party because once again he's shooting his mouth off, or as he likes to put it "diffusing" the situation. Of course, he has no idea who hit him resulting in stitches. That is a laughable lie. He can't say who it was because the incident has been suppressed, once again.

In January, he mysteriously shoots off a gun in a busy restaurant and evades responsibility for it.

Also in January, he is having angry public tantrums causing Reeva to send those emails to him saying she's upset and at times afraid.

Many of the people he was close to Darren, Justin, Sam G... basically have nothing to do with him anymore.

To me, there is a CLEAR pattern of a man on the edge. I don't subscribe to the idea that he was a physical abuser, in the traditional sense of that word. I know there are many ways to interpret abuse. I do think he was a self-absorbed a-hole who also had the ability to charm the socks off of women. So I suppose that could fall in to the emotional abuse category, being that one minute he is being loving and then the next he is chewing them out, blaming them and then asking for forgiveness. I do see signs of this.

I've seen people say on this topic that there is no evidence to suggest that Oscar was capable of intentionally killing her and I just wildly disagree. Based on what we have learned about him, and add in his passion and recklessness for guns, it is a no brainer to me that he had the ability to shoot somebody in a heated situation. If it wasn't Reeva, I think at some point somebody else would have ended up hurt or dead.

I think he was praying to God that night because he knew exactly what he did.


Oscar Pistorius What Really Happened - YouTube

 

[Murphys_Law]

BIB. That makes me ask: If OP says it was in the WC with Reeva, what could he be trying to infer that would be to his advantage? The first thing that comes to my mind is: OP wants the Court to believe that Reeva had a lifeline with her, something she could use to call for help if she really was trapped by him for 17 minutes. So it is impossible to believe that she was ever trapped there.

Mr. Nel gave OP that point, that Reeva had her phone. But I can't send him an email to ask him why he did that. I can only assume that he could not reasonably push the issue or he did not feel that it was necessary to do so.

There was no need for Nel to pursue it further -- OP had been unwittingly trapped in another lie. The only way of minimizing the lie is for the defense to counter with proof that the police damaged the phone and placed the parts under and on the bath matt.

The 2 pieces are visible on the photo below. Recall that von Rensburg thought there were 2 phones initially, when in actual fact he was seeing the separated front and back of the same phone. OPs white iphone was also discovered once the matt was unfolded.

 

[delilah]

This is OT a bit but a while ago I posted this response and it was deleted, presumably by the moderators. Obviously, it is my opinion, but does anyone know why it may have been problematic?

I raised the point a while ago about why RS would be in a defensive position if head shot was first. Defence actually seem to me to be now agreeing hip shot first. Isn't this what Dixon implied? However, I think he offered a different version on the injury to the webbing between the fingers.

Given Nel's relentless questioning of OP on whether he heard screams or not, and OP eventually saying he could not say for sure if she did or did not scream after the first shot, I wonder if that is now going to be Roux's line. RS might have screamed, but OP wouldn't have heard her because of the ringing in his ears after the first shot.