Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Deleted member 102539]

...well the police would have hidden or moved that!

... but photographed before, without moving, with moving, from above, from underneath ...!

 

[lisasalinger]

When questioned by Nel, didn't OP say variously he put the phone down and he dropped it? Thus possibly giving an explanation for him for the cover coming off.

Oscar first answered that he threw it down and when Nel questioned him on that he said:

“That’s correct, my Lady. Well, I put it down. I dropped it or put it down, I don’t remember.”

 

[fox1lady]

Excellent post Hope. I don't think OP had the time or presence of mind to think how he was going to cover things up. Especially in the frame of mind he was in at the time, and the eye witness accounts of his emotional state.
I believe that it was himself he was worried about when he ventured into the bathroom and Reeva would have been an afterthought, but he can't say that in court can he? Something else struck me from the very beginning and I have never mentioned it before because it is difficult to put into words the feeling I have about it. It was the witness account of how OP was pleading with god to let Reeva live, and trying to make a bargain with god by promising to be a good person etc. (I can't remember exactly what he said), if he would let Reeva live.
This strikes me as real. I don't know if anyone else on here has tried to bargain with god in times of great worry or grief. I have, more than once, and to me, that heart rending plea coming from a person's mouth is real. I know many will say that he was just pleading to be saved from jail, but it strikes me as being genuine.

until he started to talk about how he would sacrifice his life and Reeva's to God's work (or similar)... how can he decide what happens to Reeva's life, it is (or was) her life after all not his.

 

[Ncl1968]

Has any one been told why the towels were used on the floor? Did op get them to save the floor? Surely his instinct would not have bothered with trivial matters when a loved one is at stake?
Makes no sense he used towels in such a intense situation

 

[fox1lady]

Excellent post Hope. I don't think OP had the time or presence of mind to think how he was going to cover things up. Especially in the frame of mind he was in at the time, and the eye witness accounts of his emotional state.
I believe that it was himself he was worried about when he ventured into the bathroom and Reeva would have been an afterthought, but he can't say that in court can he? Something else struck me from the very beginning and I have never mentioned it before because it is difficult to put into words the feeling I have about it. It was the witness account of how OP was pleading with god to let Reeva live, and trying to make a bargain with god by promising to be a good person etc. (I can't remember exactly what he said), if he would let Reeva live.
This strikes me as real. I don't know if anyone else on here has tried to bargain with god in times of great worry or grief. I have, more than once, and to me, that heart rending plea coming from a person's mouth is real. I know many will say that he was just pleading to be saved from jail, but it strikes me as being genuine.

until he started to talk about how he would sacrifice his life and Reeva's to God's work (or similar)... how can he decide what happens to Reeva's life, it is (or was) her life after all not his.

How is it NOT premeditated murder though... he consciously got his gun and consciously fired at a closed door thinking there were people in there to attack him. He was conscious of everything despite saying he wasn't. As soon as he picked up the gun and went to the bathroom there was intent !

 

[delilah]

Nel kept telling OP that he was repeatedly tailoring his version to contradict the States case as revealed during the trial and during his cross, the position of the fan the magazine rack etc. This is a big problem for his DT and since their case is based on what he says in his version/s, also their experts have worked from the standpoint of his version. Each change will impact on another aspect so being the liar that he is his DT are having to keep up to date with each new version and will have to go back to the drawing board.

Maybe poor old Dixon's tests were performed before the recent changes only to find that he unwittingly ended up contradicting OP's latest version LOL.

The fact that Dixon was busy doing some of his unscientific, inexpert trials only weeks before the trial suggests the defence was pretty much in disarray at that point. Couldn't find a credible expert to support their case and had to live with the bumbling Dixon. I think roux knows the game is up and will plea bargain if only OP can be persuaded to take the rap for something.

 

[DebinGA]

When OP testified about shooting, the whole family on the bench cried, because until this hour they had never heard of the sequence of events before (for 14 months). OP didn't tell his family. Source: family member, read on twitter bateman or crawford.

I find that claim very hard to believe, unless this was an extended family member of the third cousin-twice removed variety. I picture a whole cabal of Pistorii reading through witness statements together, devising the best response to anticipated questions, quizzing OP, critiquing his answers, trying out different ointments in search of the best one to cause tears, etc.

 

[Emz73]

Hardly anyone in Britland says 'bloody' anymore. We say much, much worse things : )

:innocent:

 

[TipDog]

And he already knew she was dead (in my opinion) so his promise to God was a pretty empty one.

Years ago, a loved one of mine passed away suddenly at a very young age. I was devastated. The morning the police called me to tell me his body had been discovered, I begged the policeman to say he was alive. Then, alone in my apartment after receiving the news, I begged God, the universe, the powers of be to please take both of my legs, but give me back my loved one. I was crying and saying this aloud to the open room. Begging to lose limbs so that my loved one would not be dead. There was no rationale behind it, because of course I didn't want to lose both my legs.

I know...totally different circumstances. I'm talking about someone who was very close to me, who died of natural causes and I made no promises. But my point is that any one of us could say aloud all kinds of things to deities a plenty in these instances (even atheists may do it). I wouldn't put too much stock into OP making those promises with any real intent. He just likely wanted the circumstances not to be as they were (RS alive and none of that evening to have happened).

Rage, lash out, regret...

 

[lisasalinger]

When OP testified about shooting, the whole family on the bench cried, because until this hour they had never heard of the sequence of events before (for 14 months). OP didn't tell his family. Source: family member, read on twitter bateman or crawford.

I really would love to know what they think. Not that it has any relevance on the case, nor will we ever likely know for sure... it's just a curiosity thing.

Either way, they have chosen to stand by him and that's certainly their prerogative. They did have some very interesting facial and body expressions along the way.

 

[BlueShoe]

My guess is it was in fact in the bathroom floor and she had dropped it while fleeing there. But op could not explain it being in the bathroom with a valid argument ( one of the phones had blood on it and it could be Reeva's ) so he possib. lied that it was in the toilet which Reeva took to light the way.

Maybe e Reeva took her phone with on her way to bathroom saying she was gonna call the police and and op chased her to the bathroom and somehow made her drop the phone before she could get in the toilet.

I like this idea. Maybe he swung at her hand with the cricket bat, and knocked the phone from her hand. Then he banged on the door and the tub. Then they argued and at some point she started screaming. I also think he might have knocked that small chip off the door at this point, so he could see her. He totally loses his temper, goes to get his gun, and when he returns she has moved and he can't see her. So he shoots through the middle of the door and hits her hip. She collapses in pain back into his line of sight through the crack in the door, and you know the rest. :moo:

 

[james83]

Hi diddly ho neighbor...

I heard that Ned is the next witness up for the defence regarding the screaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_RGh89k3tA

 

[soozieqtips]

One thing I feel very strongly about is that he should not be given special treatment because of his disability. He mentioned 'vulnerable' - 'fear' - 'helpless' - 'terrified' over and over while on the stand. But as we've seen from his past, he chases danger and seems to relish living on the edge, getting into fights, driving like a madman etc. If he's found guilty, he should see his sentence out like any other common prisoner. If he's guilty (and I absolutely think he is), then he should be treated like any other cold-blooded murderer who's taken away an innocent life.

By the way, does anyone know if he'd get counselling in prison? I ask because he clearly has serious psychological issues and huge anger problems. They won't just go away in prison, and I can't see him accepting his fate without a fight.

 

[lisasalinger]

The fact that Dixon was busy doing some of his unscientific, inexpert trials only weeks before the trial suggests the defence was pretty much in disarray at that point. Couldn't find a credible expert to support their case and had to live with the bumbling Dixon. I think roux knows the game is up and will plea bargain if only OP can be persuaded to take the rap for something.

When Mrs. Stipp testified that the men were out in the garden testing high and low screams on March 17, 2014, I knew right there that the defense was worried.

And I chuckled when she said she yelled out the window at them. I don't blame her.

 

[jay-jay]

Another part of Oscar's story that doesn't ring true to me is him struggling to pick her up. On his version, he had his legs on. If you look at the blood pools in the toilet room and in the bathroom, they are really not very disturbed.

If he was shuffling around in that toilet room as he described, with her full weight on top of him, and his legs hitting the wall (his explanation for the blood mark to the right of the rack) there's no way that spatter would have remained the way we saw it.

Therefore, I don't think he needed Stander to help him move her at all. He called Stander for another reason.

It also doesn't ring true to me that he was struggling to pick her up, simply because of his sheer strength and fitness (and being on his p.legs at the time, too .. as I suspect he had been all evening/night) .. there is no way he wouldn't have been able to pick her up, not with all his muscles and extreme fitness training.

There deffo must've been another reason why he called Stander.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Hmmm I can't imagine ever getting up at 3 am to 'freshen up' for a man, just like I wouldn't ever expect him to do that for me LOL

Well maybe I am a little more of a romantic and my husband just gets lucky.
I wasn't suggesting a full face of makeup rather than a swill of mouthwash and a fluffing up of her hair .
Each to our own.

 

[lisasalinger]

I heard that Ned is the next witness up for the defence regarding the screaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_RGh89k3tA

hahaha.. good find!

 

[delilah]

Years ago, a loved one of mine passed away suddenly at a very young age. I was devastated. The morning the police called me to tell me his body had been discovered, I begged the policeman to say he was alive. Then, alone in my apartment after receiving the news, I begged God, the universe, the powers of be to please take both of my legs, but give me back my loved one. I was crying and saying this aloud to the open room. Begging to lose limbs so that my loved one would not be dead. There was no rationale behind it, because of course I didn't want to lose both my legs.

I know...totally different circumstances. I'm talking about someone who was very close to me, who died of natural causes and I made no promises. But my point is that any one of us could say aloud all kinds of things to deities a plenty in these instances (even atheists may do it). I wouldn't put too much stock into OP making those promises with any real intent. He just likely wanted the circumstances not to be as they were (RS alive and none of that evening to have happened).

Rage, lash out, regret...

I'm sure he regretted it as soon as he'd fired the shots. Whether his pleading to god was genuine or otherwise, it seems immaterial to me.

Sorry for your loss, tip dog.

 

[Rumpole]

First, thanks for reading Juror13

And yes, Nel did make it a very strong point that she was standing in front of the door talking to her attacker... and then she gets shot in the hip. The Judge was watching Nel intently as he was talking about this.

In Nel's summation at the end of the cross, he states the following:

“The court will, on the objective facts and the circumstantial evidence, make the following findings"

• Reeva ate within 2 hours of being shot and killed.

• Whilst awake, there was an argument in which Mrs. van der Mewre heard Reeva’s voice.

• Extra State evidence: Both Stipps heard three? bangs in rapid succession that they were sure were gunshots. Van der Mewre heard "explosions" that her husband said were gunshots.This was at a time earlier than 3:17AM. The time that Nel states unequivocally was the time of the "gunshots" in the State version.

• Johnson, Burger and both Stipps heard Reeva’s blood-curdling screams.

• Oscar shot 4 shots through the door while knowing that she was behind the door.

• Oscar knew that she was talking to him.

• She was locked in the toilet room.

• Oscar armed himself with the sole purpose of shooting and killing her.

I think Nel is exaggerating, and besides that summary contains a lot that is NOT what the STATE testimony states, but rather supposition that is yet to be proved.
Nel has omitted some of the evidence presented by his own STATE witnesses. (inserted in RED.)

I really do think things look quite different when you include ALL the evidence, and it helps further if you have a presumption of innocence (As the Judge should have)

 

[whiterum]

The fact that Dixon was busy doing some of his unscientific, inexpert trials only weeks before the trial suggests the defence was pretty much in disarray at that point. Couldn't find a credible expert to support their case and had to live with the bumbling Dixon. I think roux knows the game is up and will plea bargain if only OP can be persuaded to take the rap for something.

IMO he will not take the rap for anything short of an acquittal it is not in his nature. I wonder about the DT ballistics expert when he did his tests did he take into account the now one -handed maverick on stumps firing those shots. Will he be willing to put his reputation on the line to give an opinion that will support that version.