Trial Discussion Thread #30

[molly333]

OK, someone please tell me regarding the BIB, where in all of that is OP saying that he used putative self defense? It just is not there!

I'm bookmarking this page! LOL!!!

Here:


...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes totally agree.
I and other FM have thought and discussed this . He has been seriously deluded into believing he was untouchable and was so keen to protect his perceived future earnings that he has probably at least doubled his sentence ... Hopefully
His refusal to accept responsibility for anything not even watching is just unbelievable
I would seriously love to know whether it is his decision alone to plead not guilty to everything or others around him .

The thing was such an inane thing not to mention. Who cares about ! It's such a common thing for so many people that it's just not important. But it showed how OP is programmed either to lie, deny, blame or omit.

 

[BritsKate]

BBM: They have to prove that he can scream like a grown woman...blood curdling screams, terrified for her life.

How do you supposed they plan to do that?

And explain why witnesses heard it 12 minutes before Oscar says he fired...or explain why it took almost 20 minutes to call netcare.

Times being subjective and all that.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I've been wondering that too .. and at that time of the morning, as well!

Sorry. Only saw this now.

Stander lives in the complex. He is the estate manager.

His daughter is an attorney by profession and she probably gave Oscar his first legal advice of the morning.

 

[sorrell skye]

Starting at 1:14:04

I remember pulling the trigger and the rounds going into the door...

That's where the firearm was pointed [at the door]...

I did not fire deliberately...

...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..

I didn't have time to think...I wouldn't have wanted to ..shoot at someone...

[Then Nel asks--[the gun went off accidentally]

That's the opposite of what I'm saying...

What I said was that the noise coming from the bathroom made me pull the trigger...

I can remember pulling the trigger...

The firearm was aimed at the door at that time...

I didn't have time to think if I wanted to or didn't want to [shoot the people coming out of the toilet]. I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet and I discharged the firearm.

[interaction]

I'm not sure about a second...if Reeva had come out or she had spoken to me or ...I wouldn't have fired.

[interaction]

I thought the robbers were in the toilet or on the ladder.

[I fired] because I heard a noise coming from the toilet that I interpretated as someone coming out to attack me.

I started shooting at that point.

[interaction]

I'm getting confused with this accidentally or not accidentally...I've said time and time again what I perceived and what I thought. I don't understand ...it was put to me yesterday it was by accident and now it's put to me it wasn't by accident. I don't understand...I'm saying that I didn't intend to shoot. My firearm was pointed at the door because that's where I believed that somebody was. When I heard a noise, I didn't have time to think and I fired my weapon. It was an accident.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Thursday 10 April 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

Why are Nel's questions left out of this transcript & replaced with [interaction]?

I think it's important to include the questions that were put to OP, in order to fully follow the cross examination, especially since during Nel's cross, OP repeatedly denied saying things that he'd indeed said.

 

[steveml]

The translator made an awful hash of some evidence.

This is why Vermeulen came across rather badly, he decided to gun it in his 2nd language. Never a good idea in court.

We have ELEVEN official languages.

I kid you not.

English is 2nd and 3rd language to many South Africans.

I know, it must get really confusing. What is your common dialect?

 

[Carmelita]

OP has used the words "terrified', "vulnerable", "scared", "frightened", etc. to describe his alleged state of mind on the morning of the killing.

But, during direct examination, when describing his thoughts/state of mind immediately before shooting, he testified:

"I wasn't sure if somebody was going to come out of the toilet to attack me. I wasn't sure if someone was going to come up the ladder and point a firearm in my house and start shooting. So I just stayed where I was and I kept on screaming. And then I heard a noise from inside the toilet, um, what I perceived to be somebody coming out of the toilet. Before I knew it I'd fired 4 shots at the door."

He "wasn't sure" prior to hearing the alleged noise in the toilet room that someone was going to attack him, but after hearing the alleged noise, he "perceived" someone was coming out of the toilet.

It seems to me, that if he genuinely believed that someone was coming out of the toilet room to attack him, he would have said "I was sure someone was coming out of the toilet to attack me". Instead, he merely said he "perceived" someone was "coming out of the toilet" - he didn't say to attack him, just that someone might have been coming out of the toilet.

I know some may not give much weight to the words he used, but to me they're significant, since his defense is putative self defense and his words go to his alleged state of mind prior to shooting.

IMO, not being sure there was an attacker is evidence of his state of mind, regardless of how many times he used the words terrified, vulnerable, scared, frightened, etc.

By his own testimony, he wasn't sure. He merely heard an alleged "noise" and, according to OP, before he knew it, he fired 4 shots at the door.

The above testimony begins at about 7:10 in the video below.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 8 April 2014, Session 4 - YouTube

Again I will go back to my perception that Oscar is simply not very bright.

He did not dismiss his putative self-defense with his testimony; he merely is confusing his language. He is applying his present knowledge to his past situation and speaking in a manner that transposes the two.

 

[jilly]

CAPE TOWN CRIM

First thank you for joining us here. I'm very much enjoying your contribution.

The question I have is about the Assessors. It may have been answered before, however, I haven't seen anything.

What is the background of the Assessors? Are they lay people or do they have law degrees?
Also, do you have an opinion on their limited questions so far? One question, by the female, asked Oscar if Reeva knew how to work the remote for the alarm.

 

[Zinn]

Perhaps I can assist you here. Mr Baba was giving evidence in his 2nd language.

In his mind and interpretation of what he was saying, he was in fact stating that when he called OP, it was the FIRST time they had spoken.
He discounted the call from OP's home, because no words were exchanged. (OP in any event made that call accidentally - he was looking for his friendlies, not Baba)

M'lady's home language is the same as Mr Baba's, and I believe she 'understood' what he meant.

Gerrie should have saved Baba here though, as I was immediately aware that Baba was misinterpreting all questions, and had been from the day he gave his statement. In his mind, the first time they spoke counted as the first 'call' - because talking is phone call to Mr Baba, not crying.

IIRC, phone records indicate Baba and OP called each other within the same minute. Given that Baba had driven to OP's house and had parked his vehicle there when these calls took place, I'm less concerned with who initiated the first call. In fact, I think it would be more damning to OP if he initiated a call to tell Baba "everything is fine" upon seeing or hearing his vehicle drive up. It suggests to me he hoped Baba would drive away rather than exiting his vehicle to investigate.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

 

[molly333]

Where does it state OP was in a coma? It states he will totally recover. He was ventilated, and surgery. You would never know by looking at him that this happened to him.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

I think it was the legal expert on that round table who said it--Oscar was in a coma after the accident.

You know it was a bad accident. They reconstructed his face.

 

[lithgow1]

Hello all. This is my first post but for the past few days have been enjoying everyone's else's opinions. Thanks too for all the efforts of explanations, links etc.

In the midst of much good stuff I've especially enjoyed your contributions Cape Town Crim and hope you can cope with a few more questions a little down the line.

As an overall intro to here it's probably fitting to say a few words about Judge Mapisa. I think she's great and much of my conviction that OP will be convicted rests on that. There's plenty of evidence in any case IMO, but I am very pleased that it is she who will be weighing it. Ultimately she, and her assessors, will choose between four or so citizens testifying to being awoken in the middle of the night by a woman's terrified screams cut short by gunshots, or the claim that OP screams like a woman.

She'll weigh up the likelihood of a story that stunk somewhat right from the start and has gotten smellier as its been revealed in more light and then decide that if by a possible chain of events Reeva could have gotten to the toilet unnoticed, did he then react to her sudden presence there in a reasonable manner. Just like us she'll look at the ammunition that he used, the number of shots, his level of awareness as a gun owner and enthusiast of the damage that ammo would do etc etc. I'm sure she'll wonder why he did not shout out 'who are you' or 'I am armed', call out to RS to reassure her and make sure she was OK, fire a warning shot etc etc. I seriously doubt his reply of 'It would have been dangerous, it might have injured me' is going to impress M'lady much.

I think she's been fair throughout, and though pretty poker faced a few remarks and judgements are resulted in my confidence in her. I very much liked her picking up Mr Nel on the difference between knowing and hoping. I also liked that she rejected Roux's attempts to have Nel stop asking the difficult questions and how towards the end she allowed Nel to question OP's motivation in becoming so emotional when trying to answer those questions. I'm very impressed with this woman - OP should be scared of her, not mythical intruders.

Final thought on her reaction to OP: as others have talked about, he made a BIG blunder criticising Dr Stipp, a man who had walked towards the sounds of trouble in order to offer assistance. I'm pretty sure she'll view that unnecessary little comment on someone else with a lot more weight than is good for Pistorius when it comes to assessing his character.

Just want to say too that I started reading here just a couple of days ago but went back to a few days into the trial and commenced from there. It was fun reading your trepidations and so on, knowing what was to come: the fears that Nel was too laid back and all that. I felt sorry for you all but just you wait I thought, you'll be pleased once he starts cross-examining. Well, most of you.

Thanks again ...

 

[shane13]

How do I find what you wrote on this last year? Sorry, I'm not 100% sure of how the archives work?

I would like to read that post re: Carl Pistorious. Perhaps you can re-post?

Thanks.
But as I posted
1. Maybe see what you can first find online.
2. Sorry, I am not the best in using WS search functions. Maybe others can now tell you better than I can the optimal way to search.
3. I may not have my posts in their original form as posted here. As I have it now may be another matter that I really cannot post.
4. Anyone can PM anyone at any time

 

[screecher]

Question for molly333

Do tell, given the exact situation Reeva and OP were in (supposed intruder), just WHAT would you have done?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM
1. I admire your guts in telling me what I dare not do!
2. I was pleased to see Cape in effect backing me up in some of what I've said for a long time here which fell on deaf ears mostly or got me ridiculed. Even now someone is posting about Mr Baba and who called whom first.

Which is the whole point about using anything from a phone which had no chain of custody for 16 days and which should not be allowed into evidence.

At the same time I am saddened as if my logic and clear evidence of criminal acts allowed to go on with no charges and no investigation needed another person to support me!
Everyone here should have been clamoring about this...

Finally in the matter of Mr Baba and Oscar and who called whom first. if you understand...My personal vote would be to take Mr. Baba-- an obviously honest man with much to lose over Oscar "a man with no memory of his crimes", and relying on a likely doctored phone's data...I go all the way with Mr. Baba.

In this hi-tech world, with so much evil going on beneath the surface, the simple honest, brave man like Mr. Baba or Dr Stipp must be believed instead of likely doctored, criminally stolen "data."

I also think Baba came across as a good honest person because he used his gut instinct to attend that house despite being told not to and like you say both him and Dr Stipp were both very brave bearing in mind this was a shooting incident .

With regard to the missing phone I certainly believe that it should never have left the scene and that there clearly should have been charges of perverting the course of justice and that goes for the dongle/ memory stick as well
I wondered if there was any possibility that charges may be brought after this trial has concluded.

 

[shane13]

Where does it state OP was in a coma? It states he will totally recover. He was ventilated, and surgery. You would never know by looking at him that this happened to him.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

IIRC he stated that he was in a medicically induced coma. Of course that boating accident...
Did you catch his testimony. In the AM he said press reports were untrue, he was not drunk [or words to that effect.]

in the afternoon, he said he had some alcoholic beverage 'earlier in the day."

Officially they never tested his blood for ethyl. Even tthough videos show alcoholic bevrerages in the boat.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Sorry if I missed any posts. I just want to ask the forum regulars (oldies) what your opinion has been of the Pistorious's in court? The so called 'Team Oscar' - family, extended family, friends etc.

I know what folk back here are saying and a lot of it isn't pleasant of flattering to say the least. I'm just curious as to what people on the other sides of the various ponds and oceans think?

 

[jay-jay]

Sorry. Only saw this now.

Stander lives in the complex. He is the estate manager.

His daughter is an attorney by profession and she probably gave Oscar his first legal advice of the morning.

Thanks, CTC .. I'm still amazed by how quickly they arrived, though .. I mean, they have to fully wake up and then get dressed, etc, etc, and yet they were on the scene within minutes .. were they already awake for some reason? (i.e. had they already heard the disturbance/arguing earlier?). I read somewhere on this forum that OP had called Clarice Stander separately .. I've no idea if that was correct or not, but I did ask at the time why OP would've done that seeing as Clarice and Stander live in the same house .. and if it is the case he phoned her first, then where is the record of that call?

 

[kittychi]

I'm hesitant to admit this, because I've never followed a case where my viewpoint/beliefs ran against the prevailing tone of the forum members.

I hope no one will scoff at me, because I'm sincere: I don't believe that the judge will convict on anything more that culpable homicide. Despite the untruths that he's been caught up in, I think that the case for negligence is the only thing that's been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

JMO, with utter respect to all. I enjoy reading your theories and thoughts - every post brings something to the forum, and it's a great resource.

Via Kindle, like a true Amazon junkie

Thank you for your thoughtful post, SC.

OP's testimony, his behavior and witness accounts make me believe that he intentionally shot Reeva while in a rage. IMO he cannot control his rage, therefore he does not see it as his responsibility that something happened during it.

Where I AM perplexed, however, is what set him off? What made him so angry that he went after Reeva, yelled at her to get out, etc. at 3:00 in the morning? If the judge needs a motive to go beyond culpable homicide, it has not yet appeared.

Many motives have been mentioned here based on witnesses hearing arguing: jealousy of an ex-lover or an on-camera kiss or no Valentine for Reeva, but we really don't know.

This is why my theory includes drug and/or alcohol fueled rage, which of course cannot be proved.

 

[DebinGA]

Sorry. Only saw this now.

Stander lives in the complex. He is the estate manager.

His daughter is an attorney by profession and she probably gave Oscar his first legal advice of the morning.

Clarice [pointing to her open purse], "Oscar, I'm turning my back and counting to five. When I turn around your phone shouldn't be in your hand any more, and don't tell me or anyone else where it went."

 

[Viper]

Here:


...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...

No. Putative self defense involves intention, it is required!!! For putative self defense to apply OP needed to say:

"I was in fear of my life because I believed the intruder was about to kill me so I fired my gun trying to shoot him. I fired three more times because I wanted to make sure that I had hit him and he was stopped. I intended to shoot the intruder, it is tragic that the intruder turned out to be Reeva."

Or:

"I believed that an armed intruder had entered my bathroom and I was in fear of my life so I grabbed my gun and I shot him dead."