Trial Discussion Thread #32

[soozieqtips]

OP said he was shouting and screaming at the Standers to help get Reeva to hospital.

Do we know if any of the neighbours heard this particular bout of shouting and screaming?

ETA Hmmm - OP also says that the Standers told him to put Reeva down and that the ambulance was on its way. But Dr Stipp wasn't even there yet and he said no one had called an ambulance by the time he arrived. So can we put the Standers on the liars list now?

 

[PPKik]

My fav for Roux would be Gene Hackman..lol

Yes, or what about Charles Dance? He has tremendous authority!!

 

[weeeva]

Was he asked why didn't he just unlock it? TIA Seems pretty lame to me. In fact, had he really want to protect RS wouldn't the obvious move be to tell her to unlock the door and get downstairs to be safer and call police while he kept an eye on the passageway?

The only reason I can think of him not just unlocking the bedroom door is that he could not see where the key was in the dark, and he was afraid to switch the light on.

 

[nastasya]

Nastasya, if OP was in the throws of covering up his crime, why would he walk downstairs with Reeva's blood dripping all over the place? Now if you are using movies to explain your argument, then I will use another grisly movie for same.
A certain Mr. Bates did his covering up in the bathroom where the crime took place. He wrapped her in a shower curtain and cleaned up with a mop and bucket IIRC.

Security already was alerted that something was wrong.

OP had just told Baba that everything was fine. He had to buy time. That's why he told Baba everything was ok.

The Standers were on their way over. They didn't call the police or an ambulance either. Instead they were screwing around with plastic garbage bags, rope, and tape.

I have no doubt they were in the middle of deciding whether to cover it up, accident or not. The normal reaction to normal people in an emergency is to call the police or an ambulance, not to try to deal with the bleeding with plastic garbage bags, tape, and rope.

 

[nastasya]

He has partial legs and stumps.
And again his own autobio states what speed and balance and strength he has/had on his stumps.

Yes, I agree, but without feet he would have no point of leverage to pull the door, especially on a bathroom tile floor. It would be worse than being on his knees.

 

[minor4th]

Dixon = Mr Bean

Vermuelen - Jack Black

 

[shane13]

Did Magistrate Nair Give a Hint of what he thought about OP's affidavit? And his Probable Guilt?

Nair granted bail because he said DT made their case that OP was not a flight risk.

But Nair said State made their case for PM charge to stand.

But IMO Nair did one other curious thing that may have hinted at what he thought of OP's affidavit.

Nair made more stringent bail conditions than DT and PT agreed upon. It was said to be rare that a Mag. overrules such an agreement and makes more stringent bail conditions.

Was this a hint at what he would find in the trial?. Nair said that it didn't seem to make sense OP saying he was frightened yet going into the danger.

Nair's conditions would be overrruled in late March iirc.

But did Mag. Nair hint at his thinkng that OP was probably guilty?

 

[shane13]

Yes, I agree, but without feet he would have no point of leverage to pull the door, especially on a bathroom tile floor. It would be worse than being on his knees.

Good points.

 

[lithgow1]

Yes, or what about Charles Dance? He has tremendous authority!!

I actually think Charles Dance would make a good Oldwage since the attorney has the SA equivalent of that British upper class thing going on. But that would mean I'd need to find you a new Roux.

 

[Fuskier]

This has just been posted by Barry Bateman. Article from Every African women.
http://everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

Thank you for posting this article. I found it helpful with grasping the core of the matter.

 

[homegirl]

I see what you saying homegirl, that door panel that was supposedly beaten in is over the blood drag marks where he dragged RS out of the toilet closet. It could not have been there when he dragged her out but placed in that position afterwards.

If he lifted it out in order to get room to drag Reeva out then why put it back on the toilet room floor.

Why is a good question. If OP did place it in there (and I think he did) why did he do it? I believe that he did it intentionally as part of a cover story, and that he really was in a panic at that time, and he made a mistake. It will remain an unanswered question because OP testified that can't even remember it. I would like to know, but the fact that it was there is pretty much game over as far as I can see.

I think that he threw it out into the bathroom. I plan to do another post showing some more interesting photos of the scene in the bathroom that morning, maybe later tonight. I need to find a couple of photos and links.

 

[shane13]

Yes, or what about Charles Dance? He has tremendous authority!!

Always liked him including in such films as White Mischief. True story again of trial and the wealthy and powerful getting away with murder.

 

[PPKik]

I actually think Charles Dance would make a good Oldwage since the attorney has the SA equivalent of that British upper class thing going on. But that would mean I'd need to find you a new Roux.

Yes! What about Jeremy Irons for Roux?!! :loveyou: And consider Tom Wilkinson or John Hurt for top lawyer roles!

Okay. Back to serious business. :banghead:

 

[james83]

Cellphone analyst Captain Francois Moller- Ron Jeremy.

 

[PPKik]

Always liked him including in such films as White Mischief. True story again of trial and the wealthy and powerful getting away with murder.

Yeah! He is always great. The book, White Mischief, was one of the most interesting crime books I've ever read. And James Fox, incredibly, did solve that 40-odd-year-old case. Still is a haunting case.

 

[jay-jay]

Ms Burger also claims that she heard OP shout for help before the shots. Why would he do this? If people can't buy into the theory that OP may have sounded like a woman, why should we then buy into a theory that OP mocked Reeva by shouting for help. It's unlikely he would have mocked calling for help, and it's highly unlikely that he would have shouted it at the top of his voice so he could be heard 177 metres away.

~snipped~ to address this directly.

I actually think it is highly likely OP would've called out 'help, help, help' in a mocking way when Reeva was shouting for help. Not only that but didn't Burger provide a statement to the effect that she had heard OP calling 'help' three times? Considering OP has actually confirmed he called out 'help, help, help' three times (albeit in a different context, i.e. his version), then I think that is confirmation that Burger did actually hear all these sounds, even though they are 177 metres away. The fact that she also stated she heard a shot, then a pause, then shot shot shot even before the ballistics confirmed it (i.e. she wouldn't have had a clue what their evidence was going to be, so wouldn't have either made it up or mistaken it) is confirmation again that she heard those sounds and heard them correctly.

In her testimony Ms Burger also claimed that she heard a woman screaming during the 4 gunshots. How can it be that she heard a voice above gunshots? At the time, Reeva was inside a toilet, behind a heavy locked wooden door, with no toilet window open, inside another house which was 177 metres away. The gun was fired next to an open window. We need to also remember that Ms Burger wasn't even on the balcony when she allegedly heard this, she was in bed.

Firstly, I don't think there is any reason why someone would not be able to hear both gunshots and a voice (screaming) at the same time, the sound of the gunshots would certainly not blot out the screaming. Secondly, you're assuming that Reeva was behind a heavy locked door at the time with no toilet window open, but it is highly likely by that stage that the top half of the toilet door had been smashed in, so that bit is all open now, and together with the bathroom window being open (plus the balcony windows too, it all adds to the amount of sound that gets carried out of the house, especially if the screams were that loud) .. so actually, yes, I can't see any reason why she couldn't have heard all those sounds.

General question to all .. in regard to her hearing a fading scream just slightly after the gunshot, is possible that the sound of such powerful gunfire can carry more quickly than the sound of a human voice screaming, just slightly .. I would think that is possible, considering the velocity of the shot in question.

 

[BritsKate]

Are you sure? I honestly can't remember that piece of testimony. I really must be going senile. I will go back and try to find it.

Photos of the main bedroom door, displayed on screens in court, show a large crack at the bottom of the door near a locking mechanism, a hole about 4mm in diameter through the door, and marks on the edge of the door. Another photo shows a splinter, about 5cm long according to a ruler placed on the door when the photo was taken, torn off the door.
The hole is on the outside of the bedroom door.

http://citizen.co.za/145834/oscar-bedroom-door-scrutiny-oscar-trial/

And from Lisa's blog:
<modsnip> http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/oscar-trial-day-18-oscar/

(I searched high and low for an MSM link for the above but couldn't find one. I consider our Lisa to be highly reputable but felt guilty lifting from her blog. :blushing: Sorry Lisa, but thank you! :loveyou

 

[Fuskier]

Before people go off...

Realize the immense upper body strength of OP--a supreme athlete.

Also what is now being discussed goes against Oscar being pissed likely because Reeva did lock herself in the loo, causing him to yell for her to "get the **** outa my house."

ETA: And take the actions many of us think he did with the bat.
Prob. early on.

mOO

Agreed. OP competes at Olympic level of fitness so, immense upper body strength enhanced by adrenaline surge from being enraged IMO.

 

[lithgow1]

Yeah! He is always great. The book, White Mischief was one of the most interesting crime books I've ever read. And James Fox, incredibly, did solve that 40-odd-year-old case. Still is a haunting case.

I also loved White Mischief, the book more than the film as the film added in a dramatic ending that really wasn't needed IMO. I read very recently that it was Broughton who did it - the white scuff marks on the back of the car were from his tennis shoes that he later burned and that he got some Bulgarian (?) expat in the colony who owed him a favour to drive him to and fro the murder scene. If I can find it again I'll post the link.

They were a fairly superficial sounding lot those Happy Valley people but there is a part of me that would have liked to party with them! For a little while - they nearly all had pretty sordid and/or sad ends to their glitttering glamorous lives.

 

[Jake18]

BIB. I see no reason to disbelieve Dr. Saymaan either Jake. So in fairness, is it responsible for some forum members to take what he said (paraphrasing), "Reeva would have died in a few minutes", and make that out to be "Reeva would have died in nine (9) minutes?"

Nine minutes without breathing, no brain function, and two severed arteries is just too much time for Reeva's heart to still be beating. Further the minimal blood loss in the bathroom is so telling. We can see a small blood pool in the WC, it is unmistakable! But on the bathroom floor it just looks like blood that settled from Reeva's blood soaked hair and clothes, those are not blood pools from continued bleeding.

Other than Nest, all of the evidence points to a conclusion that Reeva's heart stopped beating in the WC. Can you disagree? If so what evidence, other than Nest, who has already quickly changed his opinions about what was or was not arterial spurt, can you point to that goes against my opinion?

I completely agree! However, as far as I'm concerned if he says there were arterial spurts on the landing or stairs or wherever then I have no reason to disagree with that, given that i am not a splatter expert. I don't think that Nest saying to Roux that one blood in one particular area (bedroom) could be from cast off can be reasonable extrapolated to infer that all the arterial spurts were cast off. Especially given how unique arterial splatter is.

If there was no arterial spurt we would be in agreement. As it is, unless new information comes out from an expert on either side then, for me, if Nest says they were arterial spurts then they are arterial spurts.

As for how long the heart was beating, we'll never know the exact timeline or how many minutes exactly. However, when the human body is involved I'm loath to say that anything is "impossible" given that highly unusual things happen every single day.

Anyway, it's going to be hot here in Australia and I;m going to get a run in before it's too warm. Then the beach, and then, much much later I'll find the screams tailing off testimony for Molly .