Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

[jay-jay]

Much as I detest what I've seen of the current Pistorius clan, they can't be held responsible for what their ancestors did. "Women Deceiveth Ever" was a catchphrase of an earlier nasty piece of work.



http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...y-had-issues-involving-wooden-doors---in-1844

I would've had it removed or altered in that case ..

 

[Estelle]

.. but .. what I'm trying to get at is that she doesn't seem to question anything and she doesn't appear to be her own person, not like how Reeva was. Yes, she's shrewd in the sense you describe, but still simple in the respect that she is willing to believe anything told to her by her brothers.

My take is that in public, Aimee says these things, but in private, she knows he is guilty as sin. I also felt that her body language showed fear that OP will be sentenced to prison. She could already be grieving the loss of OP's being able to live in their uncle's house so she could comfort him and wondering what might become of him in prison. I suspect that Roux could have built the family up to believing that there would be no way that OP would be put in prison because of his disability but after Nel presented his witnesses, I think they could have lost hope.

 

[Cherwell]

I would've had it removed or altered in that case ..

The place was sold in 1881.

"Parts of the old farmhouse Pistorius built back in 1844 may still exist, though the door is long gone."

I don't think we need to scrape the barrel for faults to find with these people. The barrel is full to overflowing.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

South Africa has seen a number of high-profile culpable homicide cases in the last few years. With Oscar’s sentence looming, the Saturday Star has taken a look at several high-profile culpable homicide cases to get some insights.

Ashley Callie: Callie, known as Leone Haines in Isidingo, was killed in a head-on car crash in February 2008. She was on her way home from the Pirelli Calendar launch when her Smart car collided with a Renault on the corner of 4th Avenue and Tana road in Linden, Joburg. The man accused of causing her death, 22-year-old Nico Pretorius, who was behind the wheel of the Renault, was initially charged with culpable homicide and reckless and negligent driving. But a few months later the charges were withdrawn after the State could no longer prove its case.

Bees Roux: In August 2010, Blue Bulls rugby player Roux was pulled over by Metro police officer Sergeant Ntshimane Johannes Mogale. An altercation between the two resulted in the death of Mogale. Roux was charged with murder but argued he acted in self defence after Mogale attempted to rob him. In 2011, the 29-year-old reached a plea bargain agreement with the State and avoided jail time. He received a five-year suspended sentence.

Bryce Moon: Former Bafana Bafana star Moon was fined R60 000 for running over and killing a domestic worker and his driver’s licence was suspended for six months. The 27-year-old Bidvest Wits player was convicted of culpable homicide for the June 2009 incident in which Zimbabwean Mavis Ncube died. The fact Moon is a professional football player saved him from receiving the harshest sentence for culpable homicide.

Jacob Humphreys: Cape Town driver Humphreys was driving a taxi, when it collided with a train at the Buttskop level crossing in Blackheath in August 2010, killing 10 children. Originally Humphreys was charged with murder and sentenced to 20 years after the Western Cape High Court found that Humphreys had blatantly disregarded the law when he zig-zagged around the lowered booms. Humphreys then took his case to the Supreme Court of Appeal, which overturned the initial charge and sentence. He was then charged with culpable homicide and given eight years behind bars.

Sibusiso Langa: Langa was accused of killing six joggers with his SUV in Midrand three years ago. Judge Bert Bam found Langa guilty on five counts of culpable homicide and one of drink-driving and he was jailed for 12 years. The judge rejected Langa’s claim that the accident had taken place on his side of the road and that the joggers had run into the path of his Mercedes-Benz ML500 on Lever Road, Midrand, on October 22 2011. He rejected Langa’s claim that he only had two light beers while socialising with his friends until the early morning hours at a restaurant before the accident.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/possible-clues-to-oscar-s-fate-1.1767128

 

[Interested Bystander]

Some of the pictures that OP and Aimee have taken together look more like a picture for a couple announcing their engagement than a brother and sister posing together. For example:

link for photo: http://slimcelebrity.com/celebrity-...t/oscar-pistorius-sister-aimee-pistorius-pic/

Sorry Mods, not sure how to do it as a thumbnail.

The relationship between Carl and Aimee is more of a concern to me. There are many pictures of him kissing her with his eyes closed, either on the cheek or head, whilst embracing. To me eyes closed during a kiss is all about heightened sensation. Though some might say it is because one's partner is out of focus - not in my world! Maybe they are overly close because of the loss of both mother and father (Henke left home when they were very young).

On a another subject. Anyone know of Uncle Arnold has children? I presume he does. Were they in the group that escorted Op to court each day?

 

[foxbluff]

Found it Lithgow. 'Women Deceiveth Ever'.

Perhaps that slogan was leftover from the time when house was occupied as a parsonage?

 

[Susza]

I'll watch that later .. I need to steel myself to watch it, I find them that sickening!

I only found a 2 min. extract of the ITV interview with Aimee and Carl. Did you find a video of the complete interview? If so, would you share the link?

 

[Mr Fossil]

The relationship between Carl and Aimee is more of a concern to me. There are many pictures of him kissing her with his eyes closed, either on the cheek or head, whilst embracing. To me eyes closed during a kiss is all about heightened sensation. Though some might say it is because one's partner is out of focus - not in my world! Maybe they are overly close because of the loss of both mother and father (Henke left home when they were very young).

Anyone know of Uncle Arnold has children? I presume he does. Were they in the group that escorted Op to court each day?

He has 4 daughters. It is their husbands that escorted OP to court each day (according to Behind The Door). They are Dieter Kruger, Reinecke Janse van Rensburg, Johan van Wyk and Johan Visagie.

 

[JuneBug67]

In reference to Mr. Fossil's previous post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-10-Day-46-sentencing&p=11097412#post11097412

With regard to the critical information the door yielded it IS making up evidence when you imply that there is some equally plausible alternative explanation, even though Nel didn't offer a single substantive hint of it in court. He asks only about the unprovable timing of the one mark, and in that concedes the unanimous conclusions of all the experts on both sides regarding the significance of the other one. I think Vermulen agreed or agreed with qualification at least three times that the door was damaged after the shots, that it was intact when the shots were fired.

The testimony was that it was the hard strike that penetrated the door allowing the bat to be used as a wedge and lever that ultimately broke open the door. How could it be reasonable to think that somehow, despite no evidence supporting it, that Oscar later quietly surreptitiously pulled at the door with his hands, or invisibly kicked it or whatever excuses are offered to avoid this evidence devastating to the state. No reasonable or fair person would do so. The evidence is clear and reasonable assumptions must be made:

1) one set of sounds was bat strikes, one set was gun shots.
2) the strike that testimony indicated was key in breaking open the door was almost certainly loud and part of one of the sound sets
3) there was no stray bang after the second sounds the state calls gun shots that could account for the strike attributed to breaking open the door
4) the angle on both bat strike impressions was the same, suggesting Pistorius was at the same height (ie legs on or off) for both. As per testimony and common sense it seems much more reasonable to think Pistorius was on his legs in order to swing a bat with sufficient force to break open a door. It also makes more sense with the timeline after the second sounds that he already had is prostheses on at this point.
5) Again, the two distinct sets of sounds supports the idea that all the bat strikes came together. Though the the two bat marks were at the same angle they were not made from the same standing position. This perhaps correlates with Michelle Burger's recollection of a pause between the first bang and the ones that followed. He hit it, it wasn't productive or the section hit shocked his hands as he testified, and he moved to tackle it from a different stance.
6) Michelle Burger also recalled hearing the terrified screaming throughout the second sounds and, most importantly, lasting for a few moments after the last bang. Is this not much more likely to have been Oscar screaming as he was hammering the door and then for a few moments after the hit that 'worked' as he was wedging the bat to break open the door? And stopping when he was through and able to proceed? Or is it more likely that Reeva screamed through her devastating head wound and for a few moments after it?
7) The sound guy testified that it was unlikely that sounds from a closed toilet with a closed window would have been intelligible from the distances in involved. Again, more likely that people almost 200 m away heard Oscar screaming from the bathroom with the open window rather than Reeva screaming through a devastating head wound from a room with a closed door and a closed window.

It's devastating evidence. And I will repeat that you have to avoid, dodge, and invent to escape it. Even Gerrie Nel didn't really try, thus Roux's point about his utter failure to address the key issue of the first sounds.

 

[Estelle]

Pictures of the prison where OP could be sent:

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...nces-him-to-jail/story-fnh81gzi-1227096392422

 

[Susza]

I love the Countdown one! I.A.M.G.U.I.L.T.Y. :lol:

I love OP reading "Finding love in prison for dummies".

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_xj...WqUxphbjwBb2Fw)

 

[jay-jay]

The place was sold in 1881.

"Parts of the old farmhouse Pistorius built back in 1844 may still exist, though the door is long gone."

I don't think we need to scrape the barrel for faults to find with these people. The barrel is full to overflowing.

I think the issue has got a bit confused .. I had understood this carving to still be in existence, hanging above Henke's (?) door, from what I had previously read on here. If it no longer exists then obviously it's of no importance, but I thought it did still exist?

 

[Mr Fossil]

In reference to Mr. Fossil's previous post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-10-Day-46-sentencing&p=11097412#post11097412

With regard to the critical information the door yielded it IS making up evidence when you imply that there is some equally plausible alternative explanation, even though Nel didn't offer a single substantive hint of it in court. He asks only about the unprovable timing of the one mark, and in that concedes the unanimous conclusions of all the experts on both sides regarding the significance of the other one. I think Vermulen agreed or agreed with qualification at least three times that the door was damaged after the shots, that it was intact when the shots were fired.

The testimony was that it was the hard strike that penetrated the door allowing the bat to be used as a wedge and lever that ultimately broke open the door. How could it be reasonable to think that somehow, despite no evidence supporting it, that Oscar later quietly surreptitiously pulled at the door with his hands, or invisibly kicked it or whatever excuses are offered to avoid this evidence devastating to the state. No reasonable or fair person would do so. The evidence is clear and reasonable assumptions must be made:

1) one set of sounds was bat strikes, one set was gun shots.
2) the strike that testimony indicated was key in breaking open the door was almost certainly loud and part of one of the sound sets
3) there was no stray bang after the second sounds the state calls gun shots that could account for the strike attributed to breaking open the door
4) the angle on both bat strike impressions was the same, suggesting Pistorius was at the same height (ie legs on or off) for both. As per testimony and common sense it seems much more reasonable to think Pistorius was on his legs in order to swing a bat with sufficient force to break open a door. It also makes more sense with the timeline after the second sounds that he already had is prostheses on at this point.
5) Again, the two distinct sets of sounds supports the idea that all the bat strikes came together. Though the the two bat marks were at the same angle they were not made from the same standing position. This perhaps correlates with Michelle Burger's recollection of a pause between the first bang and the ones that followed. He hit it, it wasn't productive or the section hit shocked his hands as he testified, and he moved to tackle it from a different stance.
6) Michelle Burger also recalled hearing the terrified screaming throughout the second sounds and, most importantly, lasting for a few moments after the last bang. Is this not much more likely to have been Oscar screaming as he was hammering the door and then for a few moments after the hit that 'worked' as he was wedging the bat to break open the door? And stopping when he was through and able to proceed? Or is it more likely that Reeva screamed through her devastating head wound and for a few moments after it?
7) The sound guy testified that it was unlikely that sounds from a closed toilet with a closed window would have been intelligible from the distances in involved. Again, more likely that people almost 200 m away heard Oscar screaming from the bathroom with the open window rather than Reeva screaming through a devastating head wound from a room with a closed door and a closed window.

It's devastating evidence. And I will repeat that you have to avoid, dodge, and invent to escape it. Even Gerrie Nel didn't really try, thus Roux's point about his utter failure to address the key issue of the first sounds.

Excellent! Thank you. This is what I was after ... your reasoning. I will respond in due course.

 

[AlexUK]

Some of the pictures that OP and Aimee have taken together look more like a picture for a couple announcing their engagement than a brother and sister posing together. For example:

link for photo: http://slimcelebrity.com/celebrity-...t/oscar-pistorius-sister-aimee-pistorius-pic/

Sorry Mods, not sure how to do it as a thumbnail.

Oooooh...isn't Photoshop wonderful?

 

[Estelle]

eNCA ‏@eNCAnews Oct 16

Roux: how would you get in and out of the hospital section.

Modise: My Lady, there are entrances. #OscarTrial

I had to laugh when he said that.

 

[soozieqtips]

eNCA ‏@eNCAnews Oct 16

Roux: how would you get in and out of the hospital section.

Modise: My Lady, there are entrances. #OscarTrial

I had to laugh when he said that.

He was probably hoping OP would be ejected, James-Bond-like, from one room into another, like the special person he is.

 

[LemonMousse]

In reference to Mr. Fossil's previous post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-10-Day-46-sentencing&p=11097412#post11097412

With regard to the critical information the door yielded it IS making up evidence when you imply that there is some equally plausible alternative explanation, even though Nel didn't offer a single substantive hint of it in court. He asks only about the unprovable timing of the one mark, and in that concedes the unanimous conclusions of all the experts on both sides regarding the significance of the other one. I think Vermulen agreed or agreed with qualification at least three times that the door was damaged after the shots, that it was intact when the shots were fired.

The testimony was that it was the hard strike that penetrated the door allowing the bat to be used as a wedge and lever that ultimately broke open the door. How could it be reasonable to think that somehow, despite no evidence supporting it, that Oscar later quietly surreptitiously pulled at the door with his hands, or invisibly kicked it or whatever excuses are offered to avoid this evidence devastating to the state. No reasonable or fair person would do so. The evidence is clear and reasonable assumptions must be made:

1) one set of sounds was bat strikes, one set was gun shots.
2) the strike that testimony indicated was key in breaking open the door was almost certainly loud and part of one of the sound sets
3) there was no stray bang after the second sounds the state calls gun shots that could account for the strike attributed to breaking open the door
4) the angle on both bat strike impressions was the same, suggesting Pistorius was at the same height (ie legs on or off) for both. As per testimony and common sense it seems much more reasonable to think Pistorius was on his legs in order to swing a bat with sufficient force to break open a door. It also makes more sense with the timeline after the second sounds that he already had is prostheses on at this point.
5) Again, the two distinct sets of sounds supports the idea that all the bat strikes came together. Though the the two bat marks were at the same angle they were not made from the same standing position. This perhaps correlates with Michelle Burger's recollection of a pause between the first bang and the ones that followed. He hit it, it wasn't productive or the section hit shocked his hands as he testified, and he moved to tackle it from a different stance.
6) Michelle Burger also recalled hearing the terrified screaming throughout the second sounds and, most importantly, lasting for a few moments after the last bang. Is this not much more likely to have been Oscar screaming as he was hammering the door and then for a few moments after the hit that 'worked' as he was wedging the bat to break open the door? And stopping when he was through and able to proceed? Or is it more likely that Reeva screamed through her devastating head wound and for a few moments after it?
7) The sound guy testified that it was unlikely that sounds from a closed toilet with a closed window would have been intelligible from the distances in involved. Again, more likely that people almost 200 m away heard Oscar screaming from the bathroom with the open window rather than Reeva screaming through a devastating head wound from a room with a closed door and a closed window.

It's devastating evidence. And I will repeat that you have to avoid, dodge, and invent to escape it. Even Gerrie Nel didn't really try, thus Roux's point about his utter failure to address the key issue of the first sounds.

I know this was not aimed at me, but nonetheless....

No. It is not "devastating evidence". Nel did not address it for that reason....because it is not devastating evidence. He would hardly have led with it if it was.

The only evidence that can be depended on regarding the door is that the panel was prised out after the shots.

There is no scientific test that can be done to determine when the hole was made or any of the other dents. None.

There were two sets of sounds:

1) Gunshots
2) Unknown

If the gunshots and a bat banging a door sounded exactly the same to those who heard it, then there is no reliable way of determining which was which. None. Which means that there is precisely no logical or scientific reason to support the view that the bat sounds came after the gunshots. The only action we know happened came after the gunshots was the prising out of a panel....which made no sound.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions - that Reeva was actually in the toilet when she was doing most of her screaming, being one.

Your reasoning launches from assumptions and a number of flawed premises. Not good logic.

 

[jay-jay]

I only found a 2 min. extract of the ITV interview with Aimee and Carl. Did you find a video of the complete interview? If so, would you share the link?

It's here, in this post, Susza .. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-10-Day-47-sentencing&p=11108109#post11108109 .. scroll down for parts 1 and 2 of the full interview.

 

[LemonMousse]

eNCA ‏@eNCAnews Oct 16

Roux: how would you get in and out of the hospital section.

Modise: My Lady, there are entrances. #OscarTrial

I had to laugh when he said that.

I laughed at that too.

I was expecting him to say, "Erm...doors?". But entrances was good too

 

[foxbluff]

I feel the need to remind posters that Aimee Pistorius didn't kill anybody.

Oscar did that all by himself.