Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[G.bng]

That will become clear during defense.

What has already been determined is that the reenactment of OP wearing his prosthesis didn't work when the state tried it out. As this was their initial claim.

I dread to think of the meltdown if OP had changed his initial statement from stumps to no-stumps. A fan and a word was bad enough.

It's fine for the PT to do that though, not a single query about that.

This is an example why we should never presume the prosecution are merely seeking the truth.They will on occasion actively pursue the result that they want.

BIB Do you mean the police "will on occasion actively pursue the result they want", or the prosecution ? And I would think it would be more often what the police, wrongly or rightly, genuinely "believe" rather than what they without any reason "want" because except in a case which could seriously adversely affect one of their own, and this is not the case here, what interest would they have in putting anyone behind bars that doesn't need to be there while letting a murderer go free. Mistakes, sloppy investigation, even bending the rules and stretching evidence, yes I can see that, but from there to the police (less still the prosecution) just wanting to convict whoever for the sake of convicting reminds me of your many times stated opinion that OP's recklessness to OP planning to kill Reeva was too much of a jump.

Imo, in systems where prosecutors don't run for election, the only reason to prosecute is to punish and imprison people who the prosecution believe are guilty by the evidence they hold and where if they chose not to prosecute it would leave a murderer, pedophile, rapist, terrorist etc. free to endanger others. Iirc not even in the cases of the Birmingham Six, the Guildford four, or the Maguire seven, not even in the conviction of Barry George, has the prosecution been blamed for the quashed convictions that ensued from appeals. Indeed only the police has ever been blamed. And remember, innocence is not generally proven via an appeal, merely that a verdict is "unsafe", which can mean either a retrial if the prosecution still believes they have enough evidence to retry the case or their dropping it if they don't. And if a prosecution drops the case that does not prove an accused was innocent either, merely that they don't have enough evidence. Yes, there have been many convicted on the basis of mistaken, sloppy and in a some cases even withheld or twisted evidence by the police, but there have also been those the police knew to be guilty but that the prosecution was unable to obtain a conviction due to lack of usable evidence, such as the Stephen Lawrence case where it took nigh on 20 years to convict just two of his 4 or 5 brutal killers even though the police knew they were guilty and indeed the double jeopardy laws even had to be revoked so as that even two of Lawrence's acquitted murderers could be retried and found guilty.

 

[DebinGA]

Cant see jay jay 4:66 - are you in different time zone/country from UK? Can you tell me which page no. pls?

Here ya go:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

 

[Gryffindor]

But he's not closest to Pistorius. He and his wife live the second furthest away.

From Debora Patta on Twitter

" #OscarTrial Defence also plans on calling neighbor closest to Pistorius who will confirm Oscar's version that he was screaming like a girl"

Don't know which neighbour is being referred to though :-\

 

[MeeBee]

From Debora Patta on Twitter

" #OscarTrial Defence also plans on calling neighbor closest to Pistorius who will confirm Oscar's version that he was screaming like a girl"

Don't know which neighbour is being referred to though :-\

I think VDM will be called because it sounds like his testimony will be helpful to the DT, but I think there is a more immediate neighbor of OP's who called security that night. I think he is who is being referred to and I think he might be the one to say he recognized the screaming to be OP, or, at least, to be male.

 

[Duchy]

Here ya go:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

Thankyou. Is that the bin on top of the magazine? Looks like a coffee mug to me?

 

[lisasalinger]

But he's not closest to Pistorius. He and his wife live the second furthest away.

Mrs. van der Mewre testified that after the bangs (the 2nd set) her husband identified crying noises as being Oscar. Her husband had spoken to Oscar in the past and could identify him.

It's relevant for the Defense because she thought the crying was the woman but her husband said no it's Oscar.

I think it's also relevant for the State because it implies that all noises they heard that night from 1:56am-on were likely coming from the same location. I think Nel can use this to his advantage on cross.

 

[MeeBee]

Mrs. van der Mewre testified that after the bangs (the 2nd set) her husband identified crying noises as being Oscar. Her husband had spoken to Oscar in the past and could identify him.

It's relevant for the Defense because she thought the crying was the woman but her husband said no it's Oscar.

I think it's also relevant for the State because it implies that all noises they heard that night from 1:56am-on were likely coming from the same location. I think Nel can use this to his advantage on cross.

I know this

 

[lisasalinger]

Thankyou. Is that the bin on top of the magazine? Looks like a coffee mug to me?

It is an empty drinking mug on top of the magazines. The holster is behind it leaning up against the wall.

 

[DebinGA]

Thankyou. Is that the bin on top of the magazine? Looks like a coffee mug to me?

When you asked for a link, I went back and looked at the pics more closely. The newer 2013 pic to me shows the mag on top of a very low bedside table, not in a bin. Still, very low like the bin and right next to him as he sleeps.

 

[lisasalinger]

I know this

Oops, sorry. I took your question to mean that you weren't sure why they would be calling him.

I want to hear from Nglengthwa... the peeps on the right side of Oscar (from the Stipps vantage point with their lights on that night.) The ones that also reported shots to Baba.

And those darn Standers! Bring on the Standers already.

 

[Insp.Dots]

In what country? Is that Germany? That site does require Rxs but I am not going to go through the Check Out process to see if it does for that junk. No sense chasing this around really because it is animal steroid, that's the point, PED. The US manufacturer says it is used primarily for erectile dysfunction and it helps stamina. So IMO OP was using it to help sexually or using it during training for a cheat. Weird that he had it and a presumably used syringe in the bedroom that night?

It is used by a lot of Athletes and Gym enthusiasts to help muscle injuries. It is already in evidence that OP had a shoulder injury, and I can't imagine he took time out before calling for help to put the tape on his back or ask his training team to make up an injury up, he'd also have to have pretty long arms to put the tape in the right place. Anything like that will also have a sexual stimulant in it. There are also much better products available that he could have got for sexual problems. One of the Tabloids wrote he had killed during Roid Rage, thanks to Hilton Botha not checking his facts. I expect Roux will no doubt mention it at some point :twocents:

 

[curiousjo]

I still want to know who this guy is:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42552&d=1396623738

================================

What is the interest behind this guy Viper?

 

[G.bng]

This usually happens during discovery/disclosure. It's a bit of a grey area with me as I think the rules for this change from state to state and between countries. I'm not too sure with SA.

There's often not much to be received from defense as most of the documented evidence and exhibits are provided by prosecution.

In the UK disclosure to the other side is an ongoing duty within the pre-trial protocols. Even more important for material that “might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the case for the prosecution or of assisting the case for the accused”. Once the trial has started new evidence is only allowed by permission of the court, which is usually given if it is important could not have been given prior to the start of trial. This seems similar to what we have seen at OP's trial because the prosecution appears to have handed over albums, discs etc. even though they are not planning on using them in their case.

One thing I noticed was was they way they identified items which albeit they appear to use the same system as here in the UK, i.e. correlative letters of the alphabet followed by correlative numbers, they seem to only do this inside the proceedings when in the UK my experience is that 3 copies, (one for the defence, one for the judge, and one for the witness box) of all the evidence files numbered this way have to be delivered to the court several days before the start of the trial. But then I have only ever been involved in civil cases so a criminal case may be different.

 

[kittychi]

"The 27-year-old Paralympian, who has denied the murder charge, has to explain why he fired four shots at model and aspiring television actress Reeva Steenkamp through a locked toilet door in his home on Valentine's Day last year. To do this, he has hired an extensive team of forensic experts to describe the events in the early hours of February 14, 2013, including an American animation firm that will visually depict the crime scene using three-dimensional computer generated images." [The New Age]

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/...o-take-the-stand-as-defence-presents-its-case

OP's job is to remember his lines, don't get angry, and don't over-act imo. The script was mostly written for him by others from the meager outline he provided.

Wow, my thinking exactly, DebinGA.

 

[Viper]

================================

What is the interest behind this guy Viper?

He is in the prosecution team's photo book that they put in to evidence. He is there for a specific reason. So he has something to do with Reeva's murder.

 

[Val1]

He is in the prosecution team's photo book that they put in to evidence. He is there for a specific reason. So he has something to do with Reeva's murder.

Could he be the photographer that she commissioned for those more private pics for a "special" someone?

Edit: nvm, found a pic of the photographer I was wondering about and it's not him.

 

[MeeBee]

MeeBee, are you talking about the Van der Merwes' testimony? It was crying after the shooting that they were talking about not the screaming, I believe.

'Estelle was called to testify about an argument she heard about two hours before the shooting, when, she claimed, she heard a "woman crying".

That was until Roux, who no doubt had seen a statement from her husband, pointed out to her that her husband had told her: "No, that is Oscar crying."

It seems Van der Merwe is one of the witnesses who can attest to Roux's claim that Pistorius sounds like a woman when he screams - and apparently also when he cries.'

I can see him going out to yell "help, help, help" and then cry loudly afterwards. But I do not think the couple thought Reeva's screaming was Oscar.

That was my take on the testimony. Screaming and crying have been lumped into one thing by Roux, not unintentionally I think! But they are two separate things and I believe they were talking about AFTER the gun shots in this particular part of the testimony.

I could be wrong, of course!!!

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...rius-witnesses-who-were-not-called-to-testify

No, I was talking about Nglengthwa. He lives next to OP and called security that night.

 

[Duchy]

What does FM mean please?

 

[Lyra500]

What does FM mean please?

FM = Forum Member

 

[steveml]

In the UK disclosure to the other side is an ongoing duty within the pre-trial protocols. Even more important for material that “might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the case for the prosecution or of assisting the case for the accused”. Once the trial has started new evidence is only allowed by permission of the court, which is usually given if it is important could not have been given prior to the start of trial. This seems similar to what we have seen at OP's trial because the prosecution appears to have handed over albums, discs etc. even though they are not planning on using them in their case.

One thing I noticed was was they way they identified items which albeit they appear to use the same system as here in the UK, i.e. correlative letters of the alphabet followed by correlative numbers, they seem to only do this inside the proceedings when in the UK my experience is that 3 copies, (one for the defence, one for the judge, and one for the witness box) of all the evidence files numbered this way have to be delivered to the court several days before the start of the trial. But then I have only ever been involved in civil cases so a criminal case may be different.

Yep, there appears to be a few different systems used depending on country/state etc. I think in the UK we have a defence disclosure which suggests that a list of all witnesses must be included that the accused may call during the trial. There was a tweet from one of the court reporters in SA suggesting that it is not a requirement in SA, however that's not to say they haven't given them a list. We've seen a couple of occasions during the trial whereby agreements seem to have been made on a mutual basis, whereas in the UK there appears to be a much stricter protocol.

It'll be interesting to see, no doubt.

:smile:

ETA: They would get through a lot more if they organised the evidence files pre-trial