TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

[MsFacetious]

Guyger: I know but I’m, I’m going to lose my job. I thought it was my apartment.

Full transcript of Amber Guyger's 911 call after shooting Botham Jean


Wow. I'm not sure what to think now.
She says she thought it was her apartment TWENTY TIMES in that call.
The worrying about losing her job bothers me but I can see that just being what came to mind.
It also bothers me that she didn't appear to try and talk to her victim.
You know, ask his name or where he's injured. Just general telling him to stay with her. But really I don't see anything in this call that hurts her in court when it's played.
Wow. Just wow.

 

[NervousNellie]

Guyger: I know but I’m, I’m going to lose my job. I thought it was my apartment.

Full transcript of Amber Guyger's 911 call after shooting Botham Jean


Wow. I'm not sure what to think now.
She says she thought it was her apartment TWENTY TIMES in that call.
The worrying about losing her job bothers me but I can see that just being what came to mind.
It also bothers me that she didn't appear to try and talk to her victim.
You know, ask his name or where he's injured. Just general telling him to stay with her. But really I don't see anything in this call that hurts her in court when it's played.
Wow. Just wow

RBBM
Respectfully, I disagree. With regard to the 911 recording, I think the complete disregard she had for her victim does hurt her. As you noted, she was ridiculously self absorbed during the call (immediately after she killed an innocent human being).

I am very interested in hearing how her attorney will explain why she felt the need to bang on her own door and demand to be let in her own apartment. Hard to believe her story with that witness account. I hope there are others who also heard that.

Edited to fix broken quote.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Trying to sort out the time line....

Video lasted 7 minutes. Started 60 secs after shots(2) were heard.

911 call lasted 6 minutes. EMT/LE arrived at the end of the call.

If the 7 minutes in that video included EMT leaving with Botham on the stretcher, then yes it looks like AG was actually on the 911 call while pacing the corridor. It wasn't a personal call then.

She could've popped back into the apartment and checked on Botham every now and then. That part of the corridor seen in the video was not far from his door, maybe just 2 doors down, iirc from my analysis back then.

MOO

I don't think we know that the video we have seen is THE video she started shooting at 60 seconds after the shots. And it seems there are two video clips, and we don't know how much time elapsed between them IMO.

 

[Via Marple]

I don't think we know that the video we have seen is THE video she started shooting at 60 seconds after the shots. And it seems there are two video clips, and we don't know how much time elapsed between them IMO.

I think the witness said her entire video lasted 7 minutes. In the interview on this page. Please check again for me, I am going to sleep

 

[blue22]

I am feverishly trying to catch up here. In the call it doesn't appear she offered ANY life saving measures. Did she ever try stopping the bleeding, cpr...anything? I am so sorry if this has been addressed. I haven't been logging in for some time now and hope to catch up.

 

[Rocco]

RBBM
Respectfully, I disagree. With regard to the 911 recording, I think the complete disregard she had for her victim does hurt her. As you noted, she was ridiculously self absorbed during the call (immediately after she killed an innocent human being).

I am very interested in hearing how her attorney will explain why she felt the need to bang on her own door and demand to be let in her own apartment. Hard to believe her story with that witness account. I hope there are others who also heard that.

Edited to fix broken quote.

I agree.

I think jurors are going to be horrified that during that call she doesn't address his condition at all and only talks about herself and the predicament she's in.

 

[NervousNellie]

I agree.

I think jurors are going to be horrified that during that call she doesn't address his condition at all and only talks about herself and the predicament she's in.

Unfortunately, I worry that if they can only consider a murder charge, that might not be something they can take into consideration... I don't know, or pretend to understand, the different charges and how they are applied (e.g., circumstances, intent, state of mind, etc.) but my biggest concern is that, since they have charged her with murder, the jury will not be given options if the case does not meet the necessary criteria.

 

[Rocco]

Unfortunately, I worry that if they can only consider a murder charge, that might not be something they can take into consideration... I don't know, or pretend to understand, the different charges and how they are applied (e.g., circumstances, intent, state of mind, etc.) but my biggest concern is that, since they have charged her with murder, the jury will not be given options if the case does not meet the necessary criteria.

I don't understand all the different charges and how they're applied either. Most of the time, it's very confusing since it's different depending on the State.

But just going with the basics:

Was this premeditated? Well, let's see. She goes in to the apt and shoots at him and there's gunshot residue on the door frame. Then she advances on him and shoots again as there is gun shot residue on the kitchen counter (IIRC). Seems to me that fits the criteria for premeditation. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me).

Did she intend to kill him? Cops aim for center mass. They don't aim for your leg to stop you from running or aim for your hand to get you to drop a weapon (not that either of those were the case here) but she aimed for center mass, from what she could see,---twice. So the intent wasn't to injure him, the intent was to kill him.

Was he a threat to her? He didn't have a weapon and was in his own apt., so he was not a threat to her.

So if you were on the jury and your choices were: murder---- and she goes to prison, or not guilty---and she gets off with no repercussion for killing him , how would you vote (knowing what we know now)?

ETA: To me, it wouldn't matter that she made a mistake and thought she was in her own apt. The bottom line would be she killed an innocent man.

 

[sloane7777]

Even this makes no sense for me. IF the door was even slightly ajar, just by attempting to insert a key into the lock would be enough pressure to push open the door without even turning the key. IF the door was not ajar and she inserted a key, it should not have fit.

And the witness says over and over and has never wavered she heard pounding on the door PRIOR to the Shot .

 

[SandyQLS]

Yeah I was wondering about that also - was she describing where she shot him or where his apartment was located, not sure. I realize she is not a paramedic but every cop is trained in first aid and it is protocol for them to assist with life saving measures until EMS arrives. It appears she attempted no such thing.

"Sep 10, 2018 · His cause of death was a gunshot wound to his chest and abdomen, the medical examiner ruled. ..."

Botham Jean shooting: The facts vs. the rumors

Multiple sources state that same information, and my understanding is that it was a single entrance wound to the chest, no exit wound, and that the slug either richoted or tumbled from the chest cavity down into the abdomen.

Yes the police receive basic first aid training, but JMO there really was nothing she could do within that scope. I also JMO believe that we will learn that a major internal vessel like the aorta was ruptured, and again nothing to be done about that.

The first act of rendering aid is "activate EMS" which AG did. She also stayed on scene, encouraged the patient verbally, and JMO was aware that he was moaning, ergo breathing, ergo had a pulse.

I don't know what it is people expected her to do.

 

[mickey2942]

@Rocco, that is how I see it. She just decided to shoot to kill. The guy didn't have a weapon, and I am guessing, was more than 20 feet away.

Guyger is going to have to be cross examined, to tell "her" story. But, there is a lot we still don't know.

 

[PrairieWind]

I haven't looked at this case for a while, so trying to catch up. I am interested to see the defense strategy on this. There are a lot of facts I don't know, probably need to go back and read. Was Jean sitting on the couch when shot? I havent heard.

 

[PrairieWind]

There have been some times when I have been very tired after being awake for long periods of time. But I can't imagine being so tired as to go into the wrong apartment and not immediately realize i was in the wrong place. I'd like to know more about the door. I understand it would close automatically. If it was ajar as she at one time claimed (or propped open) you'd think that would have raised a huge red flag to her. If it was closed, she presumably would have tried to use her key in the lock. Would he key fit in the lock? It obviously wouldn't unlock the door, but i'd like to know if it would go in. I'm pretty sure she will convicted of something. Just not sure what yet.

 

[mickey2942]

I haven't looked at this case for a while, so trying to catch up. I am interested to see the defense strategy on this. There are a lot of facts I don't know, probably need to go back and read. Was Jean sitting on the couch when shot? I havent heard.

There hasn't been much released, as far as information goes...

But this is interesting news, pretty much any arrests that Guyger was involved in, charges were dismissed by the prosecution.

9 Cases Dropped After Amber Guyger Was Charged With Murder

 

[NervousNellie]

"Sep 10, 2018 · His cause of death was a gunshot wound to his chest and abdomen, the medical examiner ruled. ..."

Botham Jean shooting: The facts vs. the rumors

Multiple sources state that same information, and my understanding is that it was a single entrance wound to the chest, no exit wound, and that the slug either richoted or tumbled from the chest cavity down into the abdomen.

Yes the police receive basic first aid training, but JMO there really was nothing she could do within that scope. I also JMO believe that we will learn that a major internal vessel like the aorta was ruptured, and again nothing to be done about that.

The first act of rendering aid is "activate EMS" which AG did. She also stayed on scene, encouraged the patient verbally, and JMO was aware that he was moaning, ergo breathing, ergo had a pulse.

I don't know what it is people expected her to do.

So, to answer your question, I personally ‘expect’ that an officer who realizes she just shot an innocent man should attempt to provide aid to her victim. She did not know the extent of his injuries. Just because your opinion is that “nothing could be done” does not excuse her for not trying at the time, IMO.

 

[wary]

I don't understand all the different charges and how they're applied either. Most of the time, it's very confusing since it's different depending on the State.

But just going with the basics:

Was this premeditated? Well, let's see. She goes in to the apt and shoots at him and there's gunshot residue on the door frame. Then she advances on him and shoots again as there is gun shot residue on the kitchen counter (IIRC). Seems to me that fits the criteria for premeditation. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me).

Did she intend to kill him? Cops aim for center mass. They don't aim for your leg to stop you from running or aim for your hand to get you to drop a weapon (not that either of those were the case here) but she aimed for center mass, from what she could see,---twice. So the intent wasn't to injure him, the intent was to kill him.

Was he a threat to her? He didn't have a weapon and was in his own apt., so he was not a threat to her.

So if you were on the jury and your choices were: murder---- and she goes to prison, or not guilty---and she gets off with no repercussion for killing him , how would you vote (knowing what we know now)?

ETA: To me, it wouldn't matter that she made a mistake and thought she was in her own apt. The bottom line would be she killed an innocent man.

Well—please don’t interpret this as trying to defend Guyger in any way, but—

The official reason for aiming at center mass is not to kill, but to stop. Almost no one has the skill needed to succeed at hitting a leg or hand in a stressful situation, and shooting at someone without being serious about stopping them, (aiming at center mass), proves that you were using deadly force in a situation you did not take seriously.

Regarding the rest of your post, I forget exactly what she’s charged with, and I don’t know the Texas definition of various charges, but I hope the jury has a choice of manslaughter or the lesser types of murder. The phrase “acting with a reckless disregard for human life,” comes to mind.

And I don’t think Stand Your Ground applies—not when you have no good reason for thinking it IS your own home!

 

[Rocco]

"Sep 10, 2018 · His cause of death was a gunshot wound to his chest and abdomen, the medical examiner ruled. ..."

Botham Jean shooting: The facts vs. the rumors

Multiple sources state that same information, and my understanding is that it was a single entrance wound to the chest, no exit wound, and that the slug either richoted or tumbled from the chest cavity down into the abdomen.

Yes the police receive basic first aid training, but JMO there really was nothing she could do within that scope. I also JMO believe that we will learn that a major internal vessel like the aorta was ruptured, and again nothing to be done about that.

The first act of rendering aid is "activate EMS" which AG did. She also stayed on scene, encouraged the patient verbally, and JMO was aware that he was moaning, ergo breathing, ergo had a pulse.

I don't know what it is people expected her to do.

911 operators are trained on what to tell callers they can to to aid a victim when they're given information about an injury. She could have at least asked if she had been the least bit concerned about him and his injury.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

"Sep 10, 2018 · His cause of death was a gunshot wound to his chest and abdomen, the medical examiner ruled. ..."

Botham Jean shooting: The facts vs. the rumors

Multiple sources state that same information, and my understanding is that it was a single entrance wound to the chest, no exit wound, and that the slug either richoted or tumbled from the chest cavity down into the abdomen.

Yes the police receive basic first aid training, but JMO there really was nothing she could do within that scope. I also JMO believe that we will learn that a major internal vessel like the aorta was ruptured, and again nothing to be done about that.

The first act of rendering aid is "activate EMS" which AG did. She also stayed on scene, encouraged the patient verbally, and JMO was aware that he was moaning, ergo breathing, ergo had a pulse.

I don't know what it is people expected her to do.

Actually engage with the patient and assess vitals for a start.

 

[SeesSeas]

TEXAS Lesser-included offenses
https://www.tdcaa.com/journal/a-year-of-massaging-jury-instructions/
TEXAS DISTRICT & COUNTY ATTORNEYS ASSOCIATION
A year of massaging jury instructions
[...]
Lesser-included offenses
That lesser-included offenses are the most frequently reviewed criminal jury instruction topic—probably each year—indicates they have troubling aspects. During the heat of trial in our adversarial system, decisions may be rushed, perceptions too narrowed, or the law confusing. So, assuming that you do not want to retry a case for jury charge error, the submission of lesser-included offenses is often the better practice if in doubt about their applicability.
Even a little evidence from any source will support a lesser-included offense. As the Court of Criminal Appeals has repeatedly stated:
[T]here must be some evidence directly germane to the lesser-included offense for the finder of fact to consider before an instruction on a lesser-included offense is warranted. We consider all of the evidence admitted at trial, not just the evidence presented by the defendant. The evidence must establish that the lesser-included offense is a valid, rational alternative to the charged offense. Anything more than a scintilla of evidence is sufficient to entitle a defendant to a lesser charge. However, we may not consider [t]he credibility of the evidence and whether it conflicts with other evidence or is controverted.1
Goad, a burglary of a habitation in which the trial court denied the defendant’s request for a lesser-included offense of criminal trespass, reminds that the victim’s testimony also can provide the necessary evidence—in this case, the defendant’s lack of intent to commit burglary because, on being interrupted at the crime scene by the victim, he told the victim that he was looking for his dog. Further, for those of us who may have become a trifle cynical about suspects’ statements relating to their involvement in an offense, even the rank implausibility of the evidence is insufficient reason to deny an instruction on a lesser-included offense. Thus, the trial court should have given the requested instruction.
If the evidence shows that a charged offense is divisible, submit a lesser-included offense.
[...]

 

[Via Marple]

To refresh our memory.... AG was indicted for murder last year, by a grand jury. It was upgraded from manslaughter.

Ex-Dallas officer indicted for murder in killing of unarmed black neighbor

Amber Guyger has been indicted for murder after the Botham Jean shooting