UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[davidt]

not trying to offend you here! just pointing out that you’ll need to bring evidence when you say something as a fact, such as your original statement that AG was online chatting on his PSP.

Didn't Sony confirm his PSP hadn't been used to access the internet? Or could he have got around that?

 

[maamager]

Didn't Sony confirm his PSP hadn't been used to access the internet? Or could he have got around that?

yes, Sony reported there wasn’t online activity on their servers! however, this aspect feels a bit dubious to me personally, as Sony could only determine if the PSP connected to their servers or downloaded firmware iirc. this didn’t apply to the web browser. i am AG’s age and I def got around this issue.

also, the family didn’t have wifi so i’d be curious about access. fwiw i think the most viable theory imo would be the PSP, its just making it make sense…

ETA; clarification

 

[lebvidox]

Didn't Sony confirm his PSP hadn't been used to access the internet? Or could he have got around that?

He never used an email to log on their servers or whatever. It seems to me he was less interested in playing than in using the device for other purposes.

 

[lebvidox]

yes, Sony reported there wasn’t online activity on their servers! however, this aspect feels a bit dubious to me personally, as Sony could only determine if the PSP connected to their servers or downloaded firmware iirc. this didn’t apply to the web browser. i am AG’s age and I def got around this issue.

also, the family didn’t have wifi so i’d be curious about access. fwiw i think the most viable theory imo would be the PSP, its just making it make sense…

ETA; clarification

It's the dad saying that 'they didn't have the internet until 6 weeks before', meaning when the sister got the laptop. I assume that by 'internet' he means 'wifi', because if that was the case Andrew could only have accessed the internet with his PSP during those 6 weeks. The dad is not tech savvy, so who knows...

 

[lebvidox]

The father usually lumps things together: 'he never created a Sony account' > 'he never had an email'. None of this was ever officially confirmed by anyone investigating the case. Andrew's lack of access to the internet is the most unbelievable part of this. No way this boy never downloaded a song from one of his favorite metal bands and never watched a music video on YouTube.

 

[SilentHill]

The father usually lumps things together: 'he never created a Sony account' > 'he never had an email'. None of this was ever officially confirmed by anyone investigating the case. Andrew's lack of access to the internet is the most unbelievable part of this. No way this boy never downloaded a song from one of his favorite metal bands and never watched a music video on YouTube.

It wasn't unusual around that time to have no/limited access to the internet. Although it was gaining popularity I still recall having friends over to use my computer as they didn't have internet at theirs yet. I also absolutely spent hours at a time playing video games in my bedroom, no internet or socialising required and would love every second of it so I don't find the use of the PSP strange in that way at all.

It would be interesting to know how he usually listened to his music though, if he had an MP3 player/ipod then he would have definitely needed knowledge of how to download music. If he just played CD's then maybe he really wasn't technically inclined. JMO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

He had to go to the ATM that morning to wait for his parents to leave the house.

He went back home after everyone was gone to change out of his school uniform, and he could have also collected his birthday money then. But must have wanted a larger amount.

The parents just believed anything Andrew said. 'Oh so distracted that boy, just lost another mobile', or 'Oh he came home from school late because he chose to walk in this nice summer day'. Come on...

Bullying would explain both of these things, if they aren't actually true. (Phones being stolen by bullies, avoiding bullying on the bus.)

When I see an interview his father did, I don't get the feeling his parents are 100% convinced of these excuses being true anymore, but they are explaining what they believed at the time.

I actually took walks as a kid and teen and still do and invite my kids along, so I would probably not be very suspicious if my own teen said he was on a walk one day.

 

[Inspector Evans]

The father usually lumps things together: 'he never created a Sony account' > 'he never had an email'. None of this was ever officially confirmed by anyone investigating the case. Andrew's lack of access to the internet is the most unbelievable part of this. No way this boy never downloaded a song from one of his favorite metal bands and never watched a music video on YouTube.

I was using the internet at school from 2000. Fond memories of being told how to use Ask Jeeves in I.T!

He's a studious type so I'm sure he'd have been no stranger to the library at break/lunch times if he only had a small circle of friends and possibly could've used internet then.

YT probably came into mainstream from 2006 and videos of bands were grainy so possible he didn't look much compared to all the resources on today, I barely use Spotify anymore which again became popular when I was at Uni around 2008/09.

Itunes was before that. It does seem strange to me he showed little interest in technology bar using his PSP although an Xbox also been mentioned in reports so at the very least he was a gamer.

 

[lebvidox]

He went back home after everyone was gone to change out of his school uniform, and he could have also collected his birthday money then. But must have wanted a larger amount.

I gather that he went back home before going to the ATM. So he could have taken 300 pounds instead of 200.

I think going back home is a risky move if he wasn't planning to return ever again (i.e. ran away, kill himself), because he could just take his spare clothes, change it in some restroom and discard the uniform (he would have no use for it in the future). Or he might have entertained the idea to leave the uniform in a locker, if that happened to be available in the Doncaster train station, to get it when he came back.

Also, putting the barely used uniform in the washing machine seems to me like a premeditated staging (so he could argue he had gone to school as usual when coming back late). He also didn't want to come home in the evening still dressed in his uniform - it would be easier to explain you came home, changed, and left to take a walk in the neighborhood, for instance.

 

[lebvidox]

I was using the internet at school from 2000. Fond memories of being told how to use Ask Jeeves in I.T!

He's a studious type so I'm sure he'd have been no stranger to the library at break/lunch times if he only had a small circle of friends and possibly could've used internet then.

YT probably came into mainstream from 2006 and videos of bands were grainy so possible he didn't look much compared to all the resources on today, I barely use Spotify anymore which again became popular when I was at Uni around 2008/09.

Itunes was before that. It does seem strange to me he showed little interest in technology bar using his PSP although an Xbox also been mentioned in reports so at the very least he was a gamer.

YT was super mainstream in 2007. And as you've said, so was iTunes. And LimeWire and other sites for illegal download of songs... I struggle to make sense how this avid fan of metal music was listening to his favorite bands with zero internet connection.

 

[BethAnn777]

I gather that he went back home before going to the ATM. So he could have taken 300 pounds instead of 200.

I think going back home is a risky move if he wasn't planning to return ever again (i.e. ran away, kill himself), because he could just take his spare clothes, change it in some restroom and discard the uniform (he would have no use for it in the future). Or he might have entertained the idea to leave the uniform in a locker, if that happened to be available in the Doncaster train station, to get it when he came back.

Also, putting the barely used uniform in the washing machine seems to me like a premeditated staging (so he could argue he had gone to school as usual when coming back late). He also didn't want to come home in the evening still dressed in his uniform - it would be easier to explain you came home, changed, and left to take a walk in the neighborhood, for instance.

Do we think he wouldn’t have known that the school would have called to tell his parents he was absent? I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have known that. But then how absolutely wild that his parents really weren’t called due to a clerical error. What are the chances??? I would love to see how the person making the mistake made this mistake. Not just hear about it but see it. According to what I’ve heard and I don’t recall where, she called the kid’s parents listed above or below Andrew’s. Was this on a paper or a computer screen? Have the police ever taken a look at said paper or computer document to confirm this really could have happened the way they said?

I’m thinking back to when I was in high school in the 90’s. A friend and I used to change our grades in the teacher’s grade book in English class. We would erase our low grades and pencil in high grades.

Again with my wild ideas, but if it were me, knowing that parents are called when kids are absent, I absolutely would have messed with that document and changed the phone numbers or messed it up somehow so that my parents wouldn’t have gotten the call.

I think of Andrew as being a sweet boy who was smart and a rule-follower but he might have had an ornery side as well.

—————

Good thoughts you have about his uniform. I assumed he did that because it must have been his normal routine, but it makes sense that he might have planned to come home that evening and act like he did go to school, come home and change and then went back out. But then we are back to did he really not know that his parents would be called?

This is all so baffling. How does a 14 year old disappear forever?

 

[Lucy6226]

YT was super mainstream in 2007. And as you've said, so was iTunes. And LimeWire and other sites for illegal download of songs... I struggle to make sense how this avid fan of metal music was listening to his favorite bands with zero internet connection.

Back in the olden days we had CD's, cassettes and records. Music existed before the internet!

 

[lebvidox]

Do we think he wouldn’t have known that the school would have called to tell his parents he was absent? I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have known that. But then how absolutely wild that his parents really weren’t called due to a clerical error. What are the chances??? I would love to see how the person making the mistake made this mistake. Not just hear about it but see it. According to what I’ve heard and I don’t recall where, she called the kid’s parents listed above or below Andrew’s. Was this on a paper or a computer screen? Have the police ever taken a look at said paper or computer document to confirm this really could have happened the way they said?

I’m thinking back to when I was in high school in the 90’s. A friend and I used to change our grades in the teacher’s grade book in English class. We would erase our low grades and pencil in high grades.

Again with my wild ideas, but if it were me, knowing that parents are called when kids are absent, I absolutely would have messed with that document and changed the phone numbers or messed it up somehow so that my parents wouldn’t have gotten the call.

I think of Andrew as being a sweet boy who was smart and a rule-follower but he might have had an ornery side as well.

—————

Good thoughts you have about his uniform. I assumed he did that because it must have been his normal routine, but it makes sense that he might have planned to come home that evening and act like he did go to school, come home and change and then went back out. But then we are back to did he really not know that his parents would be called?

This is all so baffling. How does a 14 year old disappear forever?

We don't really know about this clerical error. It could be just what the school said later to exempt themselves from not following the proper protocols. And we don't know if they would have the parents cellphones up to date (people changed numbers way too often back then) or just the landline phone number (did the Gosdens have an answering machine, and how often did they check it?)

Overall, a lot of 'details' in this case are not really verifiable independently but promoted by the family in some interviews.

 

[lebvidox]

Back in the olden days we had CD's, cassettes and records. Music existed before the internet!

Of course music existed before the internet? That's precisely why I questioned how was Andrew listening to his favorite bands: did the parents bought him physical copies of all CDs? Did he listened them on a DISCMAN? Did he have a mp3 player? It's all about the access to technology and opportunities of connection. A 14-yo boy in 2007 would hardly be hearing his favorite bands on cassettes and records.

 

[lebvidox]

Some overall thoughts about Andrew's interest and/or access to technology and the internet... I think there’s only two ways to look at this:

A) The family never, ever owned a computer and had internet connection in their home until 6 weeks before Andrew went missing – when his sister Charlotte, then 16, got a laptop for her birthday.

B) The family had owned previous desktop computers, maybe used as a home PC and shared by all of them and not relying on a WiFi connection, and this was just disclosed to the police but never in any interview granted by the Gosdens

Since they weren’t tech adverse or didn’t lack the financial means – the parents had bought Andrew mobile phones before and also gave him a PSP and an XBOX –, I believe scenario B is the more likely.

Everyone can say about ‘not every family had home computers back in 2007’, and of course that’s factually accurate, but the only case I can see this happening here (if scenario A is the truth) would be one of a sheltered upbringing and the two kids being deprived of a common experience that was culturally binding to virtually all kids their age, class and shared environment.

It might just well be that Andrew would rather to connect in other devices away from the family home - school, library, cyber cafes -, but the insistence of the family that there was no evidence he ever used a computer independently is not something I can take at face value WITHOUT entertaining a scenario of overprotecting parenting and control (a possible explanation, also, for Andrew's peculiar habit of misplacing mobile phones and nothing else).

 

[rvlvr]

Back in the olden days we had CD's, cassettes and records. Music existed before the internet!

They did but CDs were incredibly expensive, paying £15 for an album was quite common, I definitely remember discovering a new band and parting with the best part of £50 for three of their records, but then I had a job and not much else to spend my money on. That said I also had a CD burner and had plenty of albums in my collection that I hadn’t paid for.

I do find it strange that a computer apparently didn’t play a bigger part in his life, my parents were just ordinary middle class folk and they got a PC when I was at school in the late 1990s, we had internet access at home from around 2001, I was a student at a run of the mill university in the early 2000s and no one submitted written work, it was always typed and printed, and lecture notes and resources were all accessible online. Schools maybe lagged a little behind, but still.

 

[Lucy6226]

They did but CDs were incredibly expensive, paying £15 for an album was quite common, I definitely remember discovering a new band and parting with the best part of £50 for three of their records, but then I had a job and not much else to spend my money on. That said I also had a CD burner and had plenty of albums in my collection that I hadn’t paid for.

I do find it strange that a computer apparently didn’t play a bigger part in his life, my parents were just ordinary middle class folk and they got a PC when I was at school in the late 1990s, we had internet access at home from around 2001, I was a student at a run of the mill university in the early 2000s and no one submitted written work, it was always typed and printed, and lecture notes and resources were all accessible online. Schools maybe lagged a little behind, but still.

Andrew had £200 in his bank and £100 at home reportedly. He obviously got regular pocket money and birthday/Christmas money. Plenty enough to buy CDs. I used to buy singles of bands I liked if I couldn't afford the album. IMO his buying albums is not out of the question. He could have also been gifted them. MOO

 

[Cardgame]

Some overall thoughts about Andrew's interest and/or access to technology and the internet... I think there’s only two ways to look at this:

A) The family never, ever owned a computer and had internet connection in their home until 6 weeks before Andrew went missing – when his sister Charlotte, then 16, got a laptop for her birthday.

B) The family had owned previous desktop computers, maybe used as a home PC and shared by all of them and not relying on a WiFi connection, and this was just disclosed to the police but never in any interview granted by the Gosdens

Since they weren’t tech adverse or didn’t lack the financial means – the parents had bought Andrew mobile phones before and also gave him a PSP and an XBOX –, I believe scenario B is the more likely.

Everyone can say about ‘not every family had home computers back in 2007’, and of course that’s factually accurate, but the only case I can see this happening here (if scenario A is the truth) would be one of a sheltered upbringing and the two kids being deprived of a common experience that was culturally binding to virtually all kids their age, class and shared environment.

It might just well be that Andrew would rather to connect in other devices away from the family home - school, library, cyber cafes -, but the insistence of the family that there was no evidence he ever used a computer independently is not something I can take at face value WITHOUT entertaining a scenario of overprotecting parenting and control (a possible explanation, also, for Andrew's peculiar habit of misplacing mobile phones and nothing else).

Agree with all this, but at the same time grooming still happened before the internet and social media. It's possible the police missed it, or the parents weren't aware of his online activities. But in the absence of any evidence of it, it seems reasonable to consider other possibilities. For example that he had come into contact with someone in a real-life scenario, who groomed him by more old fashioned means and lured him down to London. Or he simply made a plan by himself, and something unexpected happened when he got to the city. Both scenarios make me feel so sad for him.

 

[lebvidox]

Agree with all this, but at the same time grooming still happened before the internet and social media. It's possible the police missed it, or the parents weren't aware of his online activities. But in the absence of any evidence of it, it seems reasonable to consider other possibilities. For example that he had come into contact with someone in a real-life scenario, who groomed him by more old fashioned means and lured him down to London. Or he simply made a plan by himself, and something unexpected happened when he got to the city. Both scenarios make me feel so sad for him.

To be clear, I'm all for the in-person grooming scenario. The internet connection, to me, does not necessarily point to a relationship exclusively built or maintained online, but even for the sake of being one more touchpoint to communicate with someone else or research events, bus lines etc.

 

[lebvidox]

Apologizes in advance for this long post… I’d like to share a few thoughts with you about the ‘grooming’ scenarios also, based on some research I’ve done for this and other cases.

LURING

First, there is some confusion over concepts such as ‘grooming’ and ‘luring’. You don’t necessarily need to groom a child to ‘lure’ that child somewhere. Random pedophiles might lure a 4-year-old from a playground into their car with the promise of candy, for example. That could be a crime of opportunity.

And if any child will do in this case, there were plenty of young teens who looked just like Andrew walking unattended around London back in 2007. If he decided to go to London by himself and there was no ‘groomer’ in his life, Andrew could have been unlucky to run into such a predator and was naively lured into a second location. So it's possible.

Bottom-line is: luring can be independent to grooming, and grooming might not involve any luring at all. In fact, most abuse cases resulting from grooming happen places the child would be going voluntarily and with the consent of their parents, who were oblivious of the threat.

GROOMING

Usually, a grooming process is a combination of kindness, attention, material enticement or special privilege that are expertly applied to earn a child’s trust and keep them in control. The child might not realize they’re being coerced or abused.

In the in-person grooming cases, such criminals might insert themselves into institutions that give them access to young boys, like church activities or scout’s clubs, or could just be adults in the community, like the manager in the local video store if the kid is a movie buff and has no one else to talk about this passion. Their families might also be groomed to trust this person.

That’s invariably the case in the extreme examples of sex trafficking, with criminals that are after a child not to fulfill their own fantasies, but that of potential customers. They target poor families from underprivileged communities in underdeveloped countries, swayed by the promise of a rich family in a first world country offering the kid a better life etc. The criminals don’t want to attract attention to themselves or to have the crime being immediately reported as a potential kidnapping.

ONLINE GROOMING

Nowadays, with smartphones in everybody’s hand, online grooming (as in a predator who never met the child in person) can escalate more quickly. You can target multiple victims at once, build an online friendship, then bring up the subject of sex, and the next thing you know the minor might be asked to send nude pictures etc. A creep might satisfy some of their sexual urges without even luring the kid to their place.

Back in 2007, even if Andrew had unlimited access to the internet in his home, technology was not that advanced, and the risks would be much higher. The kid could be using a shared home computer in the family’s living room, others might have access, taking and uploading a digital photo wasn’t as easy… And if the expectation of the groomer was to get this boy to meet them in person, there are way more accessible victims that don’t need to be convinced to take a train all the way from Doncaster.

WHAT ALL KINDS OF GROOMING HAVE IN COMMON

In-person grooming, online grooming and in person-grooming that also relies on online communications with the victim ALWAYS depend on the criminal dedicating a considerable amount of time to the child and/or their family. Such cases tend to lead to repeat sexual abuse – it’s not practical to put so much effort to abuse this child just once and then disappear with the kid.

Sexual abuse by a groomer leading to the child being murdered and the body being concealed is usually rare – unless the child threatens to tell or something. If Andrew lived in London and was just going about his day, with no major deviation from his routine, I believe any random criminal just luring him somewhere would be more probable than grooming. But I also came to entertain another scenario…

A DIFFERENT KIND OF GROOMING

So, another variable... Many, many, many boys that go through the hormones of puberty start experimenting with close friends and/or cousins around the same age. Touching each other, etc. It starts out of simple curiosity. One might be twelve, the other ten or eleven etc. Back in the day, there wasn’t such an unrestricted access to adult websites to feed a young teen’s imagination. You’d be surprised at what goes on in the stalls in a boy’s bathroom. Or how easy it is for misfit kids to bond in certain contexts that are not natural to them (a church, a boyish activity).

We know, for instance, that Andrew helped his mother run a kid’s club in their church in August 2007, one month before he went missing. Those clubs have kids up to the age of 10. If Andrew was in contact with these kids at 14, any 14-year-old could be in contact with him when Andrew was 10. Those church families are usually close, they could be a part of each other’s social circles.

An older boy who Andrew could have been experimenting with in the past could be living in London and back in Doncaster during the summer break to reconnect with Andrew through the church. They also could have met in other occasions, like the day Andrew came home late and said he chose to walk. (Maybe, the timing of Andrew leaving church and the boy scouts might have coincided with this other person moving out of Doncaster.)

A POSSIBLE, NOT SO ENTERTAINED THEORY

In this scenario, it could have been planned as an afternoon London, but the older boy made advancements that Andrew wasn’t receptive to, and the other person panicked with the possibility of Andrew telling on them etc (this person would already be in a whole world of troubles.)

This is just a theory, of course, and the circumstances may vary. But I believe that, for a possible relationship to get Andrew to London, this wouldn’t be a stranger on the internet and possibly not even an adult. I tend to believe it was someone closer in age, and I tend to believe the ‘foul play’ wasn’t that much premeditated. If this boy was killed, I believe the act might have happened inside a car to make it easier for the body to be moved without drawing too much attention.

To wrap this up: I believe a closer look in the Doncaster community and the families that were part of their Gosden's social activities could be productive in this case. Perhaps, even more so than an investigation based mostly in London. Maybe go over the criminal records of men who were in their late teens or early adulthood back in 2007 - this person could have been involved in some other crimes of a sexual nature.