UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[ChatteringBirds]

I never thought he stayed in London long. My theory is that his walks home from school were test-runs for the time it takes to traverse a similar distance in London on foot.

Do you have a theory regarding why he might need to know how long a walk would take?

 

[SteveH]

You're right, Slipknot aren't a goth band, they're a nu-metal band. Back in the early 00s there was confusion in the media (and therefore, most people) between goth - as you said which encompasses Post-punk, Goth Rock & Darkwave, etc and what was dubbed 'Mall-goth' in America - this is basically what we in the UK called Greebos/Moshers, (and later, Emos) but also got shoved under the 'goth' umbrella due to the American name and visual similarity in aesthetics. The Wikipedia page I just linked defines it as "Goth for fashion rather than culture". Generally Mall-Goths/Greebos/Moshers listened to Slipknot, System of a Down, Limp Bizkit, Korn, Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, Deftones, Kittie, any and all nu-metal and also grunge bands like Nirvana, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. Here's a couple of articles on Greebos/Moshers in the UK if you're interested. Also, crucially, many were too young to attend club nights where the older goths like you were talking about would be going on a saturday night, but could get into gigs and festivals as long as they looked 16.

Generally Greebos/Moshers/Mall-Goths wore baggy jeans, band t shirts, had grown out hairstyles and often dyed their hair black. Mostly they looked similar to Goths but with less back combing and crimping and more hair straightening. Inspiration being less Siouxsie and the Banshees and more Murderdolls. Funnily enough I would likely be called a gatekeeper for this lecture by a lot of Mall Goths though, because since there's societal stigma about 'goths', that increases the desire to be labelled as one.

(I used to be a Greebo/Mosher/Mall-Goth and later moved into the Goth subculture because I discovered I love Joy Division, the Cure, Sisters of Mercy, etc when I got to university and got to go to actual goth nights and events. When I was young I didn't accept any label except 'alternative' though)

You obviously know a lot more about the goth scene than I do! I suppose any art form that could be considered dark, gloomy or morbid might be considered "gothic". The Doors were described as gothic in the '60s but the term really gained traction in the late '70s in the UK to describe the look/music/attitude of the likes of Siouxsie and the Banshees. I saw The Cure in June '79 when they weren't remotely gothic, either in appearance or their style of music. Joy Division were one of the support bands and their music was described as gothic by some but they certainly didn't look the part. There was hardly anyone there and those that were were mainly schoolkids of 12 and upwards for some reason. I was in my last month at university but apart from my mate who I dragged along I only saw one other student. Great night all the same!

I later lived in Manchester for a while in the mid '80s and there were loads of goths - in the sense of being part a distinct subculture - hanging around places like the Haçienda. They had Batcave nights there and when I saw Nick Cave there in 1985 (supported by Sonic Youth) most of the blokes seemed to be trying to look like him!

Getting back to Andrew I realise that lots of people turn up to gigs in just a T-shirt but I still find it odd he didn't travel with a jacket of some sort (unless he did, but his bag as seen at Kings Cross seems too small to carry very much). On the other hand if he was intending to get back to Doncaster that evening why didn't he buy a return ticket? I'm not sure how credible it might be that he expected to get a lift. And if he was intending to stay away overnight without contacting his parents that would indicate that all was not as well at home as has been painted. Perhaps on the other hand he was just a little insouciant or thoughtless, or maybe he intended to phone his folks from London to let them know he was safe.

I think I'm more of an Old Fart than a Greebo or a Mall-Goth these days - or possibly I always have been. Maybe an "Old Fart at Play" as Captain Beefheart put it on the fantastic Trout Mask Replica.

 

[warp3dwing]

Do you have a theory regarding why he might need to know how long a walk would take?

My guess is that it was a mental and physical rehearsal. He may have also wanted to know roughly the time so that he could meet a specific departure time at another station, maybe to make the last off-peak train. It’s about four miles from Andrew’s school to his home, which would take him about 1.5 hours to walk, about the same time from King's X to Victoria. If it was him at Pizza Hut, he was confident he had the time to stop and eat.

 

[warp3dwing]

Yes all good logical thinking. You have to assume from all the publicity for this case in the weeks after that him getting off at XC was the last time he engaged with public transport that day as I reckon a bus driver would've come forward if they'd seen him on a bus.

Just feels to me at some point later in the day he got in a vehicle and then the trail goes very cold indeed.

Absolutely. I think that had he looked the same as he did coming into King's X, he would've been spotted in the crowded confines of public transportation. Either he got 'lucky' and no one remembered seeing him, he didn't use public transport, or he changed his look before heading outbound.

I also think he would have been recognized had he stayed in London, too. I mean, at some point, he'd stand out like a sore thumb once it got late, and otherwise he'd need to interact with someone or go into a restaurant, pub, or shop. And then what? Sleep rough? I don't see it.

There were a few alleged sightings in Brighton, which I wish I knew more about, but AFAIK, no specifics have ever been published on them.

 

[VelvetDiamante]

If Andrew just wanted to go to London for the day, why didn't he wait until the weekend? Why risk ruining his school record and upsetting his family by bunking off? Apparently, Andrew's parents had let his sister go to London when she was 14, so, theoretically they wouldn't have had a problem with Andrew doing the same. If he was lured to London, then I wonder why the perp picked that Friday, knowing he'd had to convince Andrew to skip school?

If the perp didn't live in London, were they working in London that day? Would be interesting to know if anyone close to the family could be traced there that day, but probably far too late for that.

As ever, nothing but baseless speculation as there's not much to go on in this case. It reminds me of Jason Jolkowski's disappearance in some respects, and I suspect both boys were exploited by older males.

It was a new school year and I think he was unhappy at school. His dad said he saw school as a means to an end. He may not have found it challenging or interesting enough for him. He had a couple of mates but may not have felt like he fitted in with the rest of his peers. I've also wondered if Andrew could've been wanting to avoid something that day, such as a presentation or a lesson with a teacher that he didn't like/a group of distruptive classmates.

I don't think he was running away from home and I do think London was his final destination, because it was his favourite city.

I do agree that he could've got into a vehicle at some point, which is why the trail goes cold.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I wonder if he was the type of teen who would feel comfortable taking a taxi or the type who would stick to bus/trains and try to avoid a taxi at all costs.

 

[tes1984]

It was a new school year and I think he was unhappy at school. His dad said he saw school as a means to an end. He may not have found it challenging or interesting enough for him. He had a couple of mates but may not have felt like he fitted in with the rest of his peers.

In the UK, 14-15 year old students used to do a two week work experience placement. The ambitious ones would sometimes arrange their placements well in advance.

I'm wondering if Andrew could have headed to London to try and secure work experience. He plans to present himself to some specific businesses, get a work experience offer for later that academic year, then stay with his relatives over the weekend, eat some takeaways and buy some computer games, and head back home on the Sunday.

His parents might not even be too angry with him, when he calls to say he's in London, if it turns out he went there to secure a prestigious work experience placement?

 

[BethAnn777]

I wonder if he was the type of teen who would feel comfortable taking a taxi or the type who would stick to bus/trains and try to avoid a taxi at all costs.

I just heard on a podcast that buses were free for kids in London back then. So that makes sense that he might travel by bus.

 

[FaerieDust]

In the UK, 14-15 year old students used to do a two week work experience placement. The ambitious ones would sometimes arrange their placements well in advance.

I'm wondering if Andrew could have headed to London to try and secure work experience. He plans to present himself to some specific businesses, get a work experience offer for later that academic year, then stay with his relatives over the weekend, eat some takeaways and buy some computer games, and head back home on the Sunday.

His parents might not even be too angry with him, when he calls to say he's in London, if it turns out he went there to secure a prestigious work experience placement?

hm. Interesting point. When I was in school most kids used their saturday job (waitressing, retail, etc) for this experience, or they used some family connections (farming, family business, etc) to get something, it was very casual. Although I was in Wales so maybe not as relevant because we mostly had WJEC school curriculum instead of EDEXCEL, AQA and such. We had a separate volunteering requirement as well, which most people worked in a charity shop, attended some kind of community groups or working with their local church/place of worship, etc. Similarly around age 15 I attended a paid-for summer school in London (NOT gifted and talented lol) at a university and stayed with nearby family, but it was all organised online, no need for in person organisation. I stayed in touch with one of the chaperones we had via social media, a girl who was an undergraduate student. It didn't seem weird because we were both female and it was kind of a mentor relationship where she helped me choose pathways for university.

I feel my life kind of mirrored Andrew's in some aspects which is why I'm so active on his thread. So many things he was interested in and did I also did at that age. The thing I keep coming back to is how isolated he was, I know that bothered me as well as a kid who didn't have many close friends. I didn't feel on the same wavelength as others around me and so I sought out older people for friends, which 99% of the time turned out to have nefarious intentions unfortunately. People taking advantage of naivety and loneliness.