UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[ChatteringBirds]

I never thought he stayed in London long. My theory is that his walks home from school were test-runs for the time it takes to traverse a similar distance in London on foot.

Do you have a theory regarding why he might need to know how long a walk would take?

 

[SteveH]

You're right, Slipknot aren't a goth band, they're a nu-metal band. Back in the early 00s there was confusion in the media (and therefore, most people) between goth - as you said which encompasses Post-punk, Goth Rock & Darkwave, etc and what was dubbed 'Mall-goth' in America - this is basically what we in the UK called Greebos/Moshers, (and later, Emos) but also got shoved under the 'goth' umbrella due to the American name and visual similarity in aesthetics. The Wikipedia page I just linked defines it as "Goth for fashion rather than culture". Generally Mall-Goths/Greebos/Moshers listened to Slipknot, System of a Down, Limp Bizkit, Korn, Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, Deftones, Kittie, any and all nu-metal and also grunge bands like Nirvana, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. Here's a couple of articles on Greebos/Moshers in the UK if you're interested. Also, crucially, many were too young to attend club nights where the older goths like you were talking about would be going on a saturday night, but could get into gigs and festivals as long as they looked 16.

Generally Greebos/Moshers/Mall-Goths wore baggy jeans, band t shirts, had grown out hairstyles and often dyed their hair black. Mostly they looked similar to Goths but with less back combing and crimping and more hair straightening. Inspiration being less Siouxsie and the Banshees and more Murderdolls. Funnily enough I would likely be called a gatekeeper for this lecture by a lot of Mall Goths though, because since there's societal stigma about 'goths', that increases the desire to be labelled as one.

(I used to be a Greebo/Mosher/Mall-Goth and later moved into the Goth subculture because I discovered I love Joy Division, the Cure, Sisters of Mercy, etc when I got to university and got to go to actual goth nights and events. When I was young I didn't accept any label except 'alternative' though)

You obviously know a lot more about the goth scene than I do! I suppose any art form that could be considered dark, gloomy or morbid might be considered "gothic". The Doors were described as gothic in the '60s but the term really gained traction in the late '70s in the UK to describe the look/music/attitude of the likes of Siouxsie and the Banshees. I saw The Cure in June '79 when they weren't remotely gothic, either in appearance or their style of music. Joy Division were one of the support bands and their music was described as gothic by some but they certainly didn't look the part. There was hardly anyone there and those that were were mainly schoolkids of 12 and upwards for some reason. I was in my last month at university but apart from my mate who I dragged along I only saw one other student. Great night all the same!

I later lived in Manchester for a while in the mid '80s and there were loads of goths - in the sense of being part a distinct subculture - hanging around places like the Haçienda. They had Batcave nights there and when I saw Nick Cave there in 1985 (supported by Sonic Youth) most of the blokes seemed to be trying to look like him!

Getting back to Andrew I realise that lots of people turn up to gigs in just a T-shirt but I still find it odd he didn't travel with a jacket of some sort (unless he did, but his bag as seen at Kings Cross seems too small to carry very much). On the other hand if he was intending to get back to Doncaster that evening why didn't he buy a return ticket? I'm not sure how credible it might be that he expected to get a lift. And if he was intending to stay away overnight without contacting his parents that would indicate that all was not as well at home as has been painted. Perhaps on the other hand he was just a little insouciant or thoughtless, or maybe he intended to phone his folks from London to let them know he was safe.

I think I'm more of an Old Fart than a Greebo or a Mall-Goth these days - or possibly I always have been. Maybe an "Old Fart at Play" as Captain Beefheart put it on the fantastic Trout Mask Replica.

 

[warp3dwing]

Do you have a theory regarding why he might need to know how long a walk would take?

My guess is that it was a mental and physical rehearsal. He may have also wanted to know roughly the time so that he could meet a specific departure time at another station, maybe to make the last off-peak train. It’s about four miles from Andrew’s school to his home, which would take him about 1.5 hours to walk, about the same time from King's X to Victoria. If it was him at Pizza Hut, he was confident he had the time to stop and eat.

 

[warp3dwing]

Yes all good logical thinking. You have to assume from all the publicity for this case in the weeks after that him getting off at XC was the last time he engaged with public transport that day as I reckon a bus driver would've come forward if they'd seen him on a bus.

Just feels to me at some point later in the day he got in a vehicle and then the trail goes very cold indeed.

Absolutely. I think that had he looked the same as he did coming into King's X, he would've been spotted in the crowded confines of public transportation. Either he got 'lucky' and no one remembered seeing him, he didn't use public transport, or he changed his look before heading outbound.

I also think he would have been recognized had he stayed in London, too. I mean, at some point, he'd stand out like a sore thumb once it got late, and otherwise he'd need to interact with someone or go into a restaurant, pub, or shop. And then what? Sleep rough? I don't see it.

There were a few alleged sightings in Brighton, which I wish I knew more about, but AFAIK, no specifics have ever been published on them.

 

[VelvetDiamante]

If Andrew just wanted to go to London for the day, why didn't he wait until the weekend? Why risk ruining his school record and upsetting his family by bunking off? Apparently, Andrew's parents had let his sister go to London when she was 14, so, theoretically they wouldn't have had a problem with Andrew doing the same. If he was lured to London, then I wonder why the perp picked that Friday, knowing he'd had to convince Andrew to skip school?

If the perp didn't live in London, were they working in London that day? Would be interesting to know if anyone close to the family could be traced there that day, but probably far too late for that.

As ever, nothing but baseless speculation as there's not much to go on in this case. It reminds me of Jason Jolkowski's disappearance in some respects, and I suspect both boys were exploited by older males.

It was a new school year and I think he was unhappy at school. His dad said he saw school as a means to an end. He may not have found it challenging or interesting enough for him. He had a couple of mates but may not have felt like he fitted in with the rest of his peers. I've also wondered if Andrew could've been wanting to avoid something that day, such as a presentation or a lesson with a teacher that he didn't like/a group of distruptive classmates.

I don't think he was running away from home and I do think London was his final destination, because it was his favourite city.

I do agree that he could've got into a vehicle at some point, which is why the trail goes cold.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I wonder if he was the type of teen who would feel comfortable taking a taxi or the type who would stick to bus/trains and try to avoid a taxi at all costs.

 

[tes1984]

It was a new school year and I think he was unhappy at school. His dad said he saw school as a means to an end. He may not have found it challenging or interesting enough for him. He had a couple of mates but may not have felt like he fitted in with the rest of his peers.

In the UK, 14-15 year old students used to do a two week work experience placement. The ambitious ones would sometimes arrange their placements well in advance.

I'm wondering if Andrew could have headed to London to try and secure work experience. He plans to present himself to some specific businesses, get a work experience offer for later that academic year, then stay with his relatives over the weekend, eat some takeaways and buy some computer games, and head back home on the Sunday.

His parents might not even be too angry with him, when he calls to say he's in London, if it turns out he went there to secure a prestigious work experience placement?

 

[BethAnn777]

I wonder if he was the type of teen who would feel comfortable taking a taxi or the type who would stick to bus/trains and try to avoid a taxi at all costs.

I just heard on a podcast that buses were free for kids in London back then. So that makes sense that he might travel by bus.

 

[FaerieDust]

In the UK, 14-15 year old students used to do a two week work experience placement. The ambitious ones would sometimes arrange their placements well in advance.

I'm wondering if Andrew could have headed to London to try and secure work experience. He plans to present himself to some specific businesses, get a work experience offer for later that academic year, then stay with his relatives over the weekend, eat some takeaways and buy some computer games, and head back home on the Sunday.

His parents might not even be too angry with him, when he calls to say he's in London, if it turns out he went there to secure a prestigious work experience placement?

hm. Interesting point. When I was in school most kids used their saturday job (waitressing, retail, etc) for this experience, or they used some family connections (farming, family business, etc) to get something, it was very casual. Although I was in Wales so maybe not as relevant because we mostly had WJEC school curriculum instead of EDEXCEL, AQA and such. We had a separate volunteering requirement as well, which most people worked in a charity shop, attended some kind of community groups or working with their local church/place of worship, etc. Similarly around age 15 I attended a paid-for summer school in London (NOT gifted and talented lol) at a university and stayed with nearby family, but it was all organised online, no need for in person organisation. I stayed in touch with one of the chaperones we had via social media, a girl who was an undergraduate student. It didn't seem weird because we were both female and it was kind of a mentor relationship where she helped me choose pathways for university.

I feel my life kind of mirrored Andrew's in some aspects which is why I'm so active on his thread. So many things he was interested in and did I also did at that age. The thing I keep coming back to is how isolated he was, I know that bothered me as well as a kid who didn't have many close friends. I didn't feel on the same wavelength as others around me and so I sought out older people for friends, which 99% of the time turned out to have nefarious intentions unfortunately. People taking advantage of naivety and loneliness.

 

[TheRockingRev]

Yes all good logical thinking. You have to assume from all the publicity for this case in the weeks after that him getting off at XC was the last time he engaged with public transport that day as I reckon a bus driver would've come forward if they'd seen him on a bus.

Just feels to me at some point later in the day he got in a vehicle and then the trail goes very cold indeed.

The thing with London buses is that back then, as today, not all had the one entry at the front. You could go on at the front, middle and end. Someone in a later post says that kids travel on buses was free back then, not sure on that, but if so he could've just jumped on a bus. We don't know if he bought a travel card (train/bus) for London at Kings Cross with the cash he had. Also even if he did go past the driver, they see thousands of faces a day, and most the time aren't even clocking them - if you've no reason to remember someone then it's likely they all blend into one.

 

[TheRockingRev]

I never thought he stayed in London long. My theory is that his walks home from school were test-runs for the time it takes to traverse a similar distance in London on foot. Distance-wise, it’s about the same distance from King’s Cross to Victoria or a bit further, to the Battersea waterfront.

I don't buy this I'm afraid. You could generally guess at how long a walk is anyway regardless (he was a bright lad) and also you couldn't compare the two - walking anywhere in London is general longer because of traffic, people, roadworks etc. etc.

To continue travel from London to points south, a transfer to another station (like Victoria) is required. He could have taken the tube, but if he wished to avoid cameras, and/or if he had tasks to do along the way, walking would be preferred.

If the Pizza Hut sighting is legit, that puts him at the corner of Oxford Street and Tottenham Court Road*, moving in a southwesterly direction. Plenty of stores nearby would be available to pick up a quick change of clothes.

I would think a young lad buying new clothes would've been more well remembered by a shop worker IMO

The lack of plausible sightings after PH makes me think 1) he didn’t spend much time in London, and 2) he changed his look on the way out, or 3), he was quickly and brazenly abducted in broad daylight. A passenger had recognized him on the train in, but no such sighting of a PSP-playing Andrew traveling outbound or anywhere else in London. (I don’t hold the later “vagabond Andrew” sightings of him sleeping on park benches, etc. as very likely.)

I have no idea what happened to Andrew, but to me, he didn’t seem to be in a rush to meet with anyone - at least not in London. And I don’t think he would have risked freaking his family out and disappearing just for a night out at a show. A lift back in a car would be slower than returning by rail, which would mean his turnouround time would have to be quite short for him to make it home before his absence was noticed. (He couldn’t have known the school would ring the wrong number.)

*Some reports list the PH as much further west, but from what I can tell, it was the now-closed PH by Virgin Records (also closed).

 

[warp3dwing]

I don't buy this I'm afraid. You could generally guess at how long a walk is anyway regardless (he was a bright lad) and also you couldn't compare the two - walking anywhere in London is general longer because of traffic, people, roadworks etc. etc.

I would think a young lad buying new clothes would've been more well remembered by a shop worker IMO

Fair dues. My hypothesis is that the walk was more of a mental rehearsal, a la Nathan Fielder's The Rehearsal , than anything. Mentally preparing himself for whatever it was that he planned to do. Time-wise, the walks are very similar according to Google Maps, which does take London traffic into account.

Whatever the reason for the walks, I do think they are related to his trip if not his disappearance. They were a break in his pattern of life, and the walks were only discovered, I believe, when his dad saw him one day. He was alone. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever connecting his absconding to London to anyone else.

I wish we knew a bit more about the digital forensic investigation. I think people are rightfully wary that the look into possible digital communications with others was as sloppy as the CCTV investigation, but that might not be true.

As far as being recognized in a clothing store, you're absolutely right. I really have no answer to that other than 1) maybe he was lucky, or 2) perhaps he brought a change of clothes with him that his family wasn't aware of. A beanie and a jacket may have been enough.

Here's what I have trouble with:
- The idea that Andrew randomly was abducted in broad daylight on the one day he happened to skive off to London.
- The idea that he was in secret communication with someone despite having limited means of communication and a digital investigation being performed on computers he had access to.

Both are possible, more so the second one IMO. Maybe he made a connection with one of the NAGTY kids. According to this article that references this report, it seems like they may have been his type.

What's your take on Andrew's disappearance?

 

[davidt]

The timing of the walk is interesting. Most reports say he walked home once in the week before he disappeared although some say twice. I've yet to find a definitive source. It's definitely of interest but as usual there's no other information about it. He didn't discuss it with anyone and apparently told his father he did it because he felt like it.