GUILTY UK - Arrest in 1987 'Bedsit Murders' of Wendy Knell, 25, and Caroline Pierce, 20, in Kent

[Dotta]

I would not be surprised if sexual interference of the dead in mortuaries and funeral homes is more prevalent than we would like to think.

In the UK, people generally don't want to discuss all aspects of death and this prevents the issues being discussed and appropriate security policies being implemented.

My experience of attending mortuaries to examine bodies for ante mortem injury or other foul play was that the deceased was pulled from fridge and I was left by the mortuary technician to carry on, with no corroboration of my actions or findings.

I think the whole question of security, unquestionable access and lone working needs to be looked at nationally, to reduce the opportunity for such appalling acts in the future.

Cctv is the answer and the second person/assisstant. Or on body cameras worn by people who deal with the dead (like police cameras).

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I read about it in the Internet.
But is it true? Who knows?

There's off beat stuff to some but not to others and then there are behaviours that would be considered paraphilia.

Some cultures are very repressed and shame based. I think that type of society is more likely to result in sexual deviance rather than healthy behaviours within an acceptable spectrum.

 

[Dotta]

Lawsuits against NHS

Families of the victims of morgue monster David Fuller start legal action against NHS

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I usually like to refrain from instantly linking other unsolved murders to newly found killers but this monster, jesus.
A ‘man’ like this surely doesn’t murder two women in a single year and that is it. Considering his burglary offences go back 15 years or so before 1987 and his unspeakable offences after ‘87 go all the way up to last year.
Workload for these investigators through the roof probably.

I'm inclined to think that Wendy and Caroline may have been DF's only two murder victims, although I think he had been building up to killing for sometime.

With all DF's obsessive cataloguing of his offences, I believe that there would have been evidence found during the house search if there was a whole backstory of serial killing.

I believe that once DF had unfettered mortuary access and his deviant needs were sated, there was not longer any requirement for him to kill his victims. JMOO.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Cctv is the answer and the second person/assisstant. Or on body cameras worn by people who deal with the dead (like police cameras).

Absolutely, except no cameras when mortuary technicians prepare the body for a PM and the PM by the pathologist in the main room. CCTV in all other non-clinical areas.

Mortuary technicians should prepare bodies in pairs, PM's should have a pathologist and at least one technician present.

Dual swipe of two staff ID's with PIN code verification should be needed for access to mortuary at all times when no staff are already in the mortuary.

There should be increased security for access to fridges...dual swipe again? JMOO

 

[Pimlipo]

I'm inclined to think that Wendy and Caroline may have been DF's only two murder victims, although I think he had been building up to killing for sometime.

With all DF's obsessive cataloguing of his offences, I believe that there would have been evidence found during the house search if there was a whole backstory of serial killing.

I believe that once DF had unfettered mortuary access and his deviant needs were sated, there was not longer any requirement for him to kill his victims. JMOO.

It’d be interesting then to know if there were any notes or references in his obsessive cataloguing of the two murders he’s just been convicted of. I haven’t heard that there was

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It’d be interesting then to know if there were any notes or references in his obsessive cataloguing of the two murders he’s just been convicted of. I haven’t heard that there was

Agreed there was nothing reported as being found in relation to the murders.

I was inferring that DF had a need to revisit his acts and he did this by recording his mortuary activity, cataloguing and searching his victims social media.

I believe that his killing was stopped by access to the mortuary. If this had not had been the case then he would likely have become a serial killer who developed his methods to enable him to record his post mortem sexual abuse and cataloguing with his victims social media etc. JMO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Agreed there was nothing reported as being found in relation to the murders.

I was inferring that DF had a need to revisit his acts and he did this by recording his mortuary activity, cataloguing and searching his victims social media.

I believe that his killing was stopped by access to the mortuary. If this had not had been the case then he would likely have become a serial killer who developed his methods to enable him to record his post mortem sexual abuse and cataloguing with his victims social media etc. JMO

There is a good chance you are right on this Whitehall. Did he intend to kill Wendy Knell when he entered her room? Had he stalked her from his interest in photography and going to SupaSnaps were she worked?

Likewise did he escalate his crimes in terms of intent with Caroline Pearce after probably seeing her when he went to Buster Browns in Camden Road too? Did he stalk her and that’s why there was 5 months between each murder? Did her screaming put him in fear of being caught a 3rd time?

The access to the morgue probably did allow him to replay these crimes.

I still feel Jean Brook’s murder should still be considered for the fact of some of the coincidences including her once working in Camden Road, his interest in cycling (at Bedgebury?), the proximity of his address in St Leonard’s to her and the similar nature of the crime.

For what it’s worth I believe Pennells might have been involved in this crime too. Unless DNA evidence proves otherwise the similarity between the 1979 Jane Doe murder and Jean Brook’s in 1982 is too difficult to ignore. JMO

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I'm probably way off base here, but I just wonder if one of the reasons the 2nd murder took place was because he knew the police were on a wild goose chase. A month before Caroline was murdered, Wendy Knell's murder featured on BBC Crimewatch around mid Oct 1987. That was the first time they showed the photofit which obviously wasn't him. I just wonder that having seen that Crimewatch episode he decided to strike again and, in a way, taunt the police.

Yes, Caroline's struggle/screams may have spooked him away from a 3rd murder...but I do wonder if that photofit and CW episode prompted him to strike again and near enough 4-5 weeks after the Crimewatch episode. It's possible that the Great Storm, a few days after the CW episode aired, may have delayed him a little.

You can tell in that CW episode that the police were short of leads with Wendy's murder:

The details of how they made that photofit is mentioned in the above CW episode. The circumstances behind it are just as creepy as this Fuller bloke, but could be just an innocent and concerned member of the public who was aware of the prowlers at the time.

Timeline:

CW Episode: Oct 13th 1987
Great Storm: Oct 15th 1987
Caroline attack: Nov 24th 1987

Just to recap on the photofit:

1987 Photofit


Fuller, 80s picture

 

[Dotta]

Hospital worker who raped corpses had 'all access pass' despite criminal record

 

[SaintGertrude]

I usually like to refrain from instantly linking other unsolved murders to newly found killers but this monster, jesus.
A ‘man’ like this surely doesn’t murder two women in a single year and that is it. Considering his burglary offences go back 15 years or so before 1987 and his unspeakable offences after ‘87 go all the way up to last year.
Workload for these investigators through the roof probably.

I still feel that International crimes need to be looked into if Fuller was touring with Cutting Crew abroad as their unofficial photographer. It would be good if a journalist was given the opportunity to interview any living band members who may remember Fuller. Thinking about International cases this includes the Cinderella murderer in Canada as he was known that leave footprints at crime scenes. I am not sure if the MO would fit though as quite specific.

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I still feel that International crimes need to be looked into if Fuller was touring with Cutting Crew abroad as their unofficial photographer. It would be good if a journalist was given the opportunity to interview any living band members who may remember Fuller. Thinking about International cases this includes the Cinderella murderer in Canada as he was known that leave footprints at crime scenes. I am not sure if the MO would fit though as quite specific.

The impression I got was he only followed them around within the UK. He may have regarded himself as their unofficial photographer, but they most likely had no idea who he was. Also, there was a mention at court about him selling the photos to fans, or at least trying to sell them to fans. Sounds like he was just some bootlegger. I've yet to find a Cutting Crew photo that has been credited to that .

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I still feel that International crimes need to be looked into if Fuller was touring with Cutting Crew abroad as their unofficial photographer. It would be good if a journalist was given the opportunity to interview any living band members who may remember Fuller. Thinking about International cases this includes the Cinderella murderer in Canada as he was known that leave footprints at crime scenes. I am not sure if the MO would fit though as quite specific.

Leaving footprints at crime scenes is not unusual, whether it be in mud, snow, blood of transfer of material from one surface to another.

It is common practice for offenders in custody for less serious burglaries and assaults to have imprints of their footwear recorded for comparison to other outstanding offences.

For more serious offences all clothing is recovered for evidential purposes.

No doubt the police will identify if any national or international travel was involved during DF's period of offending and notify the relevant authorities so they can review any outstanding cases that are similar.

Once again it is for the police to build up a evidenced profile of his antecedents (lifestyle) and to act based on confirmed detail rather than go on a 'fishing trip'. Directed focus is essential.

 

[Dotta]

Re: his employment in hospital after his criminal record was revealed.
He might have told his bosses it was his youthful folly, a mistake which happened ages ago.
I bet they considered him a dedicated, loyal worker, never taking sick days off, working overtime without complaints (cough, cough).
Maybe there was a shortage of electricians?

Well, now with lawsuits looming - who will pay I wonder?
Taxpayers I guess as NHS is public.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I'm probably way off base here, but I just wonder if one of the reasons the 2nd murder took place was because he knew the police were on a wild goose chase. A month before Caroline was murdered, Wendy Knell's murder featured on BBC Crimewatch around mid Oct 1987. That was the first time they showed the photofit which obviously wasn't him. I just wonder that having seen that Crimewatch episode he decided to strike again and, in a way, taunt the police.

Yes, Caroline's struggle/screams may have spooked him away from a 3rd murder...but I do wonder if that photofit and CW episode prompted him to strike again and near enough 4-5 weeks after the Crimewatch episode. It's possible that the Great Storm, a few days after the CW episode aired, may have delayed him a little.

You can tell in that CW episode that the police were short of leads with Wendy's murder:

The details of how they made that photofit is mentioned in the above CW episode. The circumstances behind it are just as creepy as this Fuller bloke, but could be just an innocent and concerned member of the public who was aware of the prowlers at the time.

Timeline:

CW Episode: Oct 13th 1987
Great Storm: Oct 15th 1987
Caroline attack: Nov 24th 1987

Just to recap on the photofit:

1987 Photofit

View attachment 320920
Fuller, 80s picture

The caller at the door is sinister. Almost as if to confirm who is in the the flat with the open window - albeit second floor. Maybe it was another resident who saw an attractive woman from their property and wanted to strike up a conversation but went about it in entirely the wrong way, fortunately for her!

Anecdotally, voyeurism at bedsits was was not uncommon in the days when home security was poor, rear access to a whole row of properties was unrestricted, external lighting and CCTV were uncommon.

Such easy and concealed access is gold to burglars with intent to steal, who can operate with very little risk and as we know burglary has connections with voyeurism, sexual assault and worse, in terms of the escalation of offending behaviour.

More than one male with voyeuristic activities in the area would have been quite possible.

The photofit may have given DF a sense of security in knowing he looked nothing like the photofit.....or
has he ever had dark hair and a moustache?

Caroline screaming and no doubt fighting back may have shocked him somewhat, if Wendy was quickly disabled with no time to scream or fight. This may well have prevented a third attack in a short time frame.

In the photo with the bike, DF looks tall, lean and athletic. He was probably physically quite strong and agile at that time. JMOO.

 

[jackal67]

NHS has blue writing. Is anyone able to find images of vans which staff may have used at the now-closed Kent and Sussex Hospital where Fuller was working at the time of Jean Brook's murder.

Fuller didn't start working at the hospital till 1989 I believe?

 

[jackal67]

Agreed there was nothing reported as being found in relation to the murders.

I was inferring that DF had a need to revisit his acts and he did this by recording his mortuary activity, cataloguing and searching his victims social media.

I believe that his killing was stopped by access to the mortuary. If this had not had been the case then he would likely have become a serial killer who developed his methods to enable him to record his post mortem sexual abuse and cataloguing with his victims social media etc. JMO

I find it hard to believe that he did not commit other crimes before the bedsit murders though? If not previous murders then rapes/sexual assaults

 

[SaintGertrude]

Fuller didn't start working at the hospital till 1989 I believe?

Thanks, I should have looked at my own timeline I did for Fuller on an earlier posting.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Re: his employment in hospital after his criminal record was revealed.
He might have told his bosses it was his youthful folly, a mistake which happened ages ago.
I bet they considered him a dedicated, loyal worker, never taking sick days off, working overtime without complaints (cough, cough).
Maybe there was a shortage of electricians?

Well, now with lawsuits looming - who will pay I wonder?
Taxpayers I guess as NHS is public.

As someone who has provided input on what is "youthful folly" from criminal conduct when employing people in the NHS I can clearly say that a conviction for burglary is too serious to ever be discounted.

Getting caught stealing sweets as a fourteen year old and receiving a police caution or possession of a small amount of drugs for personal use as a seventeen year old may be not be a bar to employment in the NHS but sufficient time will needed to have passed to demonstrate no further criminal conduct and significantly greater maturity.

Those who have access to patients, patient records, drugs and mortuaries should require an enhanced DBS check, which is out of date the minute after it is checked!

What does not happen is that anyone with employment requiring criminal record checks should be on a national database so that the employer is automatically informed if they are arrested or come to police notice where there is concern of risk.

 

[jackal67]

+If I am correct Fuller was only caught because his brother commited a crime and his DNA was uploaded to the criminal data base? What are the chances of that after so many years! I believe his brother was older than him too. Had this not happened Fuller would still be a free man. Scary !!