GUILTY UK - Arrest in 1987 'Bedsit Murders' of Wendy Knell, 25, and Caroline Pierce, 20, in Kent

[joe jones]

Fingerprints are retained on the National Fingerprint Database. Even though a fingerprint was recovered it may not have been good enough to obtain a 'match' with DF's held from his earlier offences.

There is also the possibility that the fingerprints taken manually in the 1970's were not of good enough quality. I recall taking a prisoners fingerprints about four times as a shiny probationer until they passed my tutors keen eye.....it's a real art to make them look beautiful

do you have to be convicted to allow them to keep your prints or can they keep all fingerprints from people who have been arrested? also do you know if UK LE can collect DNA from discarded rubbish if they want to get a DNA profile surreptitiously

 

[Dotta]

I don't know if UK police are allowed to use discarded DNA to gain a DNA profile, I think MI5 and other security services are but don't know if the police can legally do this

I read that American officers took rubbish of Golden State Killer to be sure they had the right culprit.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I don't know if UK police are allowed to use discarded DNA to gain a DNA profile, I think MI5 and other security services are but don't know if the police can legally do this

Police take DNA after arrest, once at a police station. In certain cases application can be made to have this destroyed upon the completion of an investigation.

Police officers and some other police staff provide DNA for elimination purposes at crime scenes.

DNA obtained by police for voluntary screening, in serious cases, should be destroyed once the exercise is completed.

The Security Service (MI5) gather intelligence and analyse risk. They work with the Police Counter Terrorist Units where police powers and resources are required.

 

[joe jones]

I read that American officers took rubbish of Golden State Killer to be sure they had the right culprit.

they did once they knew who he was, they entered DNA profile from evidence collected at crime scenes and on victims into genealogy websites, they built a family tree of any partial matches that came up, they then went and looked for male living members of family tree who fitted the age range and had lived in location of crimes during relevant period, once they had investigated his family tree I think they got a DNA profile of a cousin, and from that they deduced that GST was in the mix of possible people who could be a match to the DNA from crimes, they then investigated GST and realised he fit all the criteria, they then got his DNA surreptitiously and arrested him

 

[Whitehall 1212]

do you have to be convicted to allow them to keep your prints or can they keep all fingerprints from people who have been arrested? also do you know if UK LE can collect DNA from discarded rubbish if they want to get a DNA profile surreptitiously

1. Specifics regarding retention of fingerprints and DNA.....it's complicated . See Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 or seek legal advice if required.

2. If it's a crime scene investigation then of course.... it could be evidential.

3. Police recover items like razors, toothbrushes, hairbrushes to obtain DNA in missing person cases. This assists in identifying or eliminating the missing person to a body, if one is found.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Everyone should have their DNA on record somewhere.

 

[Dotta]

they did once they knew who he was, they entered DNA profile from evidence collected at crime scenes and on victims into genealogy websites, they built a family tree of any partial matches that came up, they then went and looked for male living members of family tree who fitted the age range and had lived in location of crimes during relevant period, once they had investigated his family tree I think they got a DNA profile of a cousin, and from that they deduced that GST was in the mix of possible people who could be a match to the DNA from crimes, they then investigated GST and realised he fit all the criteria, they then got his DNA surreptitiously and arrested him

Absolutely!
I salute them!

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Everyone should have their DNA on record somewhere.

A contentious argument Probably one best avoided!

 

[Dotta]

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.amp...rs-victims-plan-legal-action-against-NHS.html

Updates

 

[SaintGertrude]

I'm inclined to think that Wendy and Caroline may have been DF's only two murder victims, although I think he had been building up to killing for sometime.

With all DF's obsessive cataloguing of his offences, I believe that there would have been evidence found during the house search if there was a whole backstory of serial killing.

I believe that once DF had unfettered mortuary access and his deviant needs were sated, there was not longer any requirement for him to kill his victims. JMOO.

As already said by Whitehall 1212 is that Fuller has a certain Modus Operandi so it would need to fit if other crimes are being looked at. My concern is missing people like the Polegate teenager Louise Kay I mentioned previously whose disappearance in 1988 is being treated as suspicious.
Peter Tobin has been historically blamed for her disappearance all based mostly on circumstantial evidence. It seems like Tobin may well be the perpetrator. However, I think that Fuller also being local to the area is a new consideration if based purely on location. Fuller does seems more pre-planned though so there would probably need the be some kind of prior connection in my opinion.
What happened to missing Louise Kay and was she murdered by serial killer Peter Tobin? | Daily Mail Online

The disappearance of Louise Kay was also linked to the disappearance and later finding of Jessie Earl.
Death of Jessie Earl - Wikipedia

Fuller is placed as probably living in Tonbridge in 1980 when Jessie Earl was murdered which is an hour's car drive to Eastbourne.

Jessie's mother Valerie caught the train to Eastbourne to find out what had happened.

Upon opening the door to Jessie's bedsit in Upperton Gardens, she immediately felt there was something wrong. There were dirty dishes on the table, a book and Jessie's reading glasses on the floor, and her purse on the bed. It appeared that the room had been abandoned, as if she had briefly left for a short while but not returned.Friends said that they hadn't seen her since the Wednesday. There was nothing in Earl's diary which gave any indication of why she had gone missing.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

As already said by Whitehall 1212 is that Fuller has a certain Modus Operandi so it would need to fit if other crimes are being looked at. My concern is missing people like the Polegate teenager Louise Kay I mentioned previously whose disappearance in 1988 is being treated as suspicious.
Peter Tobin has been historically blamed for her disappearance all based mostly on circumstantial evidence. It seems like Tobin may well be the perpetrator. However, I think that Fuller also being local to the area is a new consideration if based purely on location. Fuller does seems more pre-planned though so there would probably need the be some kind of prior connection in my opinion.
What happened to missing Louise Kay and was she murdered by serial killer Peter Tobin? | Daily Mail Online

The disappearance of Louise Kay was also linked to the disappearance and later finding of Jessie Earl.
Death of Jessie Earl - Wikipedia

Fuller is placed as probably living in Tonbridge in 1980 when Jessie Earl was murdered which is an hour's car drive to Eastbourne.

Jessie's mother Valerie caught the train to Eastbourne to find out what had happened.

Upon opening the door to Jessie's bedsit in Upperton Gardens, she immediately felt there was something wrong. There were dirty dishes on the table, a book and Jessie's reading glasses on the floor, and her purse on the bed. It appeared that the room had been abandoned, as if she had briefly left for a short while but not returned.Friends said that they hadn't seen her since the Wednesday. There was nothing in Earl's diary which gave any indication of why she had gone missing.

What do you believe may link DF with the disappearance of Louise and the death of Jessie? Do you know of any connection that DF had with Eastbourne or Beachy Head?

The M.O. used, in terms of Jessie being taken alive to her place of death and her hands being tied using her bra, are a confirmed M.O. for Tobin but totally contrary to DF's M.O.

Tobin was also known to be in Eastbourne at the time of the disappearances and did a flit north of the border once Jessie's body was found. Neither would I be surprised if there are other elements of the crime, which have been withheld from the public, but which are specific to Tobin.

Without a cause of death it is very difficult to obtain a successful conviction. There would need to have been a plethora of circumstantial and/or forensic evidence. Sadly the best evidential opportunity for those forensic golden nuggets were destroyed before 2000.

These facts cannot be dismissed. People are creatures of habit and the same goes for an M.O., they are an offenders uniqueness shining though and are not subject to much variation.

Whilst keeping an open mind is required of any investigator, is is essential to follow what the evidence is saying, because there were probably a small yet significant number of potential killers in and around the south coast at the time who could be put in the frame on that basis alone!

You are trying to fit a suspect to the crime. This is just what police used to do in the UK, when the pressure was on for an arrest and conviction. They also ignored the facts that didn't fit with their narrative.....the bad old days of innocent folk being banged up far too often

 

[SaintGertrude]

What do you believe may link DF with the disappearance of Louise and the death of Jessie? Do you know of any connection that DF had with Eastbourne or Beachy Head?

The M.O. used, in terms of Jessie being taken alive to her place of death and her hands being tied using her bra, are a confirmed M.O. for Tobin but totally contrary to DF's M.O.

Tobin was also known to be in Eastbourne at the time of the disappearances and did a flit north of the border once Jessie's body was found. Neither would I be surprised if there are other elements of the crime, which have been withheld from the public, but which are specific to Tobin.

Without a cause of death it is very difficult to obtain a successful conviction. There would need to have been a plethora of circumstantial and/or forensic evidence. Sadly the best evidential opportunity for those forensic golden nuggets were destroyed before 2000.

These facts cannot be dismissed. People are creatures of habit and the same goes for an M.O., they are an offenders uniqueness shining though and are not subject to much variation.

Whilst keeping an open mind is required of any investigator, is is essential to follow what the evidence is saying, because there were probably a small yet significant number of potential killers in and around the south coast at the time who could be put in the frame on that basis alone!

You are trying to fit a suspect to the crime. This is just what police used to do in the UK, when the pressure was on for an arrest and conviction. They also ignored the facts that didn't fit with their narrative.....the bad old days of innocent folk being banged up far too often

I keep an open mind with Louise Kay but as said previously more likely Tobin was the perpetrator with these crimes.
The only thing placing Fuller in Eastbourne and Polegate area is that I think although living in Kent is he would have been very familiar with the Cuckoo trail
A family favourite is the Cuckoo Trail, a long-established rail path (part of NCN21 from London to Eastbourne) that runs 11 tranquil, well-surfaced miles from Heathfield to Polegate.
Cycling in East Sussex | Cycling UK
Saying this the missing Polegate lady was last seen on an evening in the Eastbourne area and unless a car was used for the crime with a roof rack for a bike it would be pretty hard to commit a murder with no other transport than a bike to then conceal the body somewhere.

 

[SaintGertrude]

14 million indecent internet images for police to work through including the images of Fuller sexually assaulting dead bodies.
Are people like Fuller part of the dark web with an exchange of photos. I feel sick to think about any other images in addition to the morgue ones. I expect there is more to come about this.
David Fuller: How was one of Britain's most prolific sex offenders caught and how did he get away with it for so long?

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

Tobin was also known to be in Eastbourne at the time of the disappearances and did a flit north of the border once Jessie's body was found. Neither would I be surprised if there are other elements of the crime, which have been withheld from the public, but which are specific to Tobin.

I read the above and it jogged my memory that Tobin was seen as a possible suspect for the Bedsit Murders. I even saved the article I found, which was a Sunday Express article from 2007 and I had located it in their archive. Pic below and I've attached the PDF article.

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

Another article I found many years ago, when looking into the Bedsit Murders, was from "The Times". I read it during 2007 and via the local library access to The Times online archive. The article was from the early or mid 90s and mentioned how Kent Police journeyed to Italy to interview an English man known locally as "The Beggar King". He was the prime suspect in a murder/rape case in Italy which was apparently the near same MO as DF. He also had a past conviction in the UK for raping an elderly woman in Tunbridge Wells during the early 80s. Obviously he wasn't responsible for the Bedsit Murders, but it just showed the effort Kent Police were putting in to try and solve the case.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Another article I found many years ago, when looking into the Bedsit Murders, was from "The Times". I read it during 2007 and via the local library access to The Times online archive. The article was from the early or mid 90s and mentioned how Kent Police journeyed to Italy to interview an English man known locally as "The Beggar King". He was the prime suspect in a murder/rape case in Italy which was apparently the near same MO as DF. He also had a past conviction in the UK for raping an elderly woman in Tunbridge Wells during the early 80s. Obviously he wasn't responsible for the Bedsit Murders, but it just showed the effort Kent Police were putting in to try and solve the case.

Another article says that police looked as far afield as Canada and Australia when looking for a suspect. I would be keen to know why Australia in light of a later missing persons case involving both Tunbridge Wells and Australian links. Who was the Tunbridge Wells Bedsit Killer?
Quote: Detectives have visited many persons of interest in the inquiry and to date have eliminated over 500 persons through DNA samples, and swabbed over 1000, visiting countries as far afield as Australia and Canada on the basis of information received.
I also wonder if the original e-fit suspect if not at the wrong place at the wrong time is a person of interest for other crimes against women in the area at the time. It is not to say that two sickos Fuller and person unknown were stalking the area. Unlikely that they knew each other although interesting that in an original data request for information via what do they know site it was said two people had been considered.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I know I mentioned it before but has anyone been able to find any newspaper articles relating to Fuller’s previous crimes in the 1970s? It must have been reported by local press.

 

[OnlyS]

I know I mentioned it before but has anyone been able to find any newspaper articles relating to Fuller’s previous crimes in the 1970s? It must have been reported by local press.

This is my first post, though I have been a lurker for a while. Here is a link to the local newspaper in Portsmouth which documents his charges in 1973 and 1977.
Burglar spared jail at Portsmouth court went on to abuse 99 corpses in mortuaries.

 

[jackal67]

They had a full DNA profile as far back as 2007 DNA gives police new lead on murders 20 years ago

2007 CrimeWatch appeal

Starts at 40:33

I suspect Fuller's brother may have been recently busted for something like drink driving? However, his DNA was a recent addition to the national database and he apparently then provided another DNA specimen to police. Makes me wonder if DF was aware of that?

Yes I thought his brother had only recently bee been added to the data base. Hence the 2020 arrest of David Fuller. Without this he would have got away with it all !

 

[jackal67]

Everyone should have their DNA on record somewhere.

Yes I agree.