UK - Arthur Labinjo Hughes, 6, killed, dad & friend arrested, June 2020

[Tinksx]

I work in social housing and have done for many years. Unfortunately, it's quite common for dysfunctional families to continue having children even though they don't care for them.

We often have children removed by social services or going to live with extended family, then the mother immediately gets pregnant. So many damaged little lives.

Thank you for your input and knowledge, especially having first hand knowledge of this. It’s greatly appreciated to have an insight into all of this.

I don’t doubt it at all and I agree, so many affected and damaged individuals, they’re the ripples of the pool that are not immediately obvious because they are not the “lead characters” for use of a better word.

 

[ChloLo]

I feel like every murderer I’ve studied is said to have BPD which I don’t get. I have BPD and would never do anything like this. People with this disorder have intense empathy for others and they can even grow out of the disorder with age. They need therapy, sure, but they are not monsters. I firmly believe she lacks all empathy and remorse which would make her something like a narcissist or sociopath. I think those disorders just are not diagnosed enough, especially with murderers.

This 100%. Its the same with schizophrenia and dissociation disorders. I've always found people with these conditions to be vulnerable in the sense they're very empathetic and sensitive. I personally think ET is a cruel, manipulative woman. Nothing more, nothing less. For whatever reason, which we're all trying to understand, she enjoyed torturing Arthur.
It's against nearly every single person's morals and sensibilities to do to a person what was done to Arthur (and every other child who suffers systematic torture) that the only people who know why this was allowed to happen is Emma and Tom
.

Ok I’m going to apologise in advance if I come off as blunt in what follows. No offence intended.

Mental health is such a huge spectrum that two people with the same condition can have completely different experiences of it. As I stated my abusive ex had BPD, he was violent, impulsive, struggled with relationships, lacked empathy. People with personality disorders can have more than one, BPD is cluster b along side histrionic, antisocial and narcissistic, so ET could well have had a combination of those. Narcissist is a word that gets used a lot, sometimes it’s applied to people who aren’t even really narcissistic.

Unmedicated/untreated mental illnesses like schizophrenia can be dangerous. Of course some people with it can be harmless, but some aren’t. I worked in a medium secure psychiatric hospital, that was always at full capacity with services users with personality disorders, mental illnesses or learning disabilities. If I told you some of the crimes they’d committed, you’d be glad they were in a secure facility. We were the security level lower than Broadmore and Rampton, some of our service users transferred from those facilities.

 

[Dotta]

That is so selfish and delusional. Perhaps they think they screwed up with the others, but a new baby gives them a fresh start to try again? Some of these people really belong in intensive treatment programs.

The answer to that is:
They dont care about contraception.
The drink alcohol, use drugs, and........ like rabbits.
No care in the world!

 

[ChloLo]

I work in social housing and have done for many years. Unfortunately, it's quite common for dysfunctional families to continue having children even though they don't care for them.

We often have children removed by social services or going to live with extended family, then the mother immediately gets pregnant. So many damaged little lives.

Just to follow on from this, in cases where children have been removed. Further pregnancies are always assessed and potentially removed at birth. The parent/s needs to demonstrate sustained changed for around 2 years.

 

[Dotta]

Just to follow on from this, in cases where children have been removed. Further pregnancies are always assessed and potentially removed at birth. The parent/s needs to demonstrate sustained changed for around 2 years.

So....
What about ET?????

 

[spangled]

Just to follow on from this, in cases where children have been removed. Further pregnancies are always assessed and potentially removed at birth. The parent/s needs to demonstrate sustained changed for around 2 years.

Yep this is true, I have had many women whose baby is on the 'at risk' register before they're even born.

I recently had a mother who lost custody of her children in court (they went to the father). She had a two bedroom property and contacted me to ask about downsizing. I asked if it wouldn't be better to keep the property for overnight stays for the children and she said she wasn't 'that fussed' about ever having them

So as shocking and confronting as this attitude is from ET I don't think it's as uncommon as you would think.

Lots of the adults I have encountered through work grew up without ever having proper love shown to them, and so the pattern continues.

 

[ChloLo]

From what I can figure out, there’s quite an age gap between to 2 boys that went to live elsewhere and the 2 she has with SH. There may not have been social services involvement before the argument that lead to ET and SH going on a parenting course.

I know of mothers who’ve had children removed, that don’t see the children. I guess for some it’s mental and emotionally difficult.

 

[Tinksx]

Ok I’m going to apologise in advance if I come off as blunt in what follows. No offence intended.

Mental health is such a huge spectrum that two people with the same condition can have completely different experiences of it. As I stated my abusive ex had BPD, he was violent, impulsive, struggled with relationships, lacked empathy. People with personality disorders can have more than one, BPD is cluster b along side histrionic, antisocial and narcissistic, so ET could well have had a combination of those. Narcissist is a word that gets used a lot, sometimes it’s applied to people who aren’t even really narcissistic.

Unmedicated/untreated mental illnesses like schizophrenia can be dangerous. Of course some people with it can be harmless, but some aren’t. I worked in a medium secure psychiatric hospital, that was always at full capacity with services users with personality disorders, mental illnesses or learning disabilities. If I told you some of the crimes they’d committed, you’d be glad they were in a secure facility. We were the security level lower than Broadmore and Rampton, some of our service users transferred from those facilities.

Just jumping off this post to say - the brain is a very complex organ and people classified as having a disorder do not always present the same. I’ve already mentioned I have an ASD child, he attends a specialist college with other children that are diagnosed ASD. None of them present in the same way, they do not all follow a clinical textbook: they all have different triggers/variations/strengths/weaknesses.

I won’t pretend that I know the slightest thing about personality disorders, I legitimately know zilch. But I do know that ASD is a neurodevelopmental issue within the brain and I can state that, not one child in my ASD child’s provision, presents identically to my child. I would imagine the same scenario presents itself when it comes to personality disorders.

 

[Discosally]

It crossed my mind he worked at Screwfix - because that's where he wanted to meet the social worker. At the time I thought it was to hide something, but what if he wanted a chance to speak to the SW without ET being present?

I live near this road, The Screwfix store is almost opposite their house, it has a huge car park as it’s on an industrial site. It’s possible he wanted to meet there to talk to the social worker alone?

 

[ScottishSam]

Ok I’m going to apologise in advance if I come off as blunt in what follows. No offence intended.

Mental health is such a huge spectrum that two people with the same condition can have completely different experiences of it. As I stated my abusive ex had BPD, he was violent, impulsive, struggled with relationships, lacked empathy. People with personality disorders can have more than one, BPD is cluster b along side histrionic, antisocial and narcissistic, so ET could well have had a combination of those. Narcissist is a word that gets used a lot, sometimes it’s applied to people who aren’t even really narcissistic.

Unmedicated/untreated mental illnesses like schizophrenia can be dangerous. Of course some people with it can be harmless, but some aren’t. I worked in a medium secure psychiatric hospital, that was always at full capacity with services users with personality disorders, mental illnesses or learning disabilities. If I told you some of the crimes they’d committed, you’d be glad they were in a secure facility. We were the security level lower than Broadmore and Rampton, some of our service users transferred from those facilities.

No need to apologise- i prefer bluntness to beating around the bush.
I work in a similar area to you, but not a secure unit (although it can be locked if required). My area is overdoses and suicide attempts - our worst cases are transferred to secure psychiatric units like yours. So, yes i agree and can see exactly where you're coming from in terms of range and scope of mental illness. Most of mine are experiencing crises, they live in the community, are generally well supported and managed from the MH teams. But, I treat the suicide attempts - hangings, gassings, self harmers and overdoses (NAC and naloxone infusions generally).
In saying that I've had my fair share of 'difficult' patients - obviously limited in terms of confidentiality. But, i've looked after several high profile murderers - one who'd murdered an elderly lady to steal a ring. Another was a serial killer, the less said about him the better. There was a lady years ago who murdered several members of her family. Recently I had a person who was trying to poison my city with a nerve agent, with a plan to kill and cut up his community psych team. Allegedly, he'd been honing his dissection skills on small mammals he'd bought online. There was no bed for him in a secure unit so he stayed with us for 4 days, with constant security presence as he made threats to several staff members.
I don't see a mental health crisis occurring with ET. I believe she had insight into what she was doing, and as far as I can tell she's using her mental health background as an excuse to lessen the severity of her involvement. She obviously has mental health issues, but she was warm and loving to her own children. I genuinely believe she didn't like Arthur (for whatever reason) and wanted him gone from her life.

 

[ChloLo]

Just jumping off this post to say - the brain is a very complex organ and people classified as having a disorder do not always present the same. I’ve already mentioned I have an ASD child, he attends a specialist college with other children that are diagnosed ASD. None of them present in the same way, they do not all follow a clinical textbook: they all have different triggers/variations/strengths/weaknesses.

I won’t pretend that I know the slightest thing about personality disorders, I legitimately know zilch. But I do know that ASD is a neurodevelopmental issue within the brain and I can state that, not one child in my ASD child’s provision, presents identically to my child. I would imagine the same scenario presents itself when it comes to personality disorders.

With all mental health conditions, not just personality disorders.

 

[Dotta]

I live near this road, The Screwfix store is almost opposite their house, it has a huge car park as it’s on an industrial site. It’s possible he wanted to meet there to talk to the social worker alone?

Welcome
It is possible you saw them in passing!

 

[ChloLo]

No need to apologise- i prefer bluntness to beating around the bush.
I work in a similar area to you, but not a secure unit (although it can be locked if required). My area is overdoses and suicide attempts - our worst cases are transferred to secure psychiatric units like yours. So, yes i agree and can see exactly where you're coming from in terms of range and scope of mental illness. Most of mine are experiencing crises, they live in the community, are generally well supported and managed from the MH teams. But, I treat the suicide attempts - hangings, gassings, self harmers and overdoses (NAC and naloxone infusions generally).
In saying that I've had my fair share of 'difficult' patients - obviously limited in terms of confidentiality. But, i've looked after several high profile murderers - one who'd murdered an elderly lady to steal a ring. Another was a serial killer, the less said about him the better. There was a lady years ago who murdered several members of her family. Recently I had a person who was trying to poison my city with a nerve agent, with a plan to kill and cut up his community psych team. Allegedly, he'd been honing his dissection skills on small mammals he'd bought online. There was no bed for him in a secure unit so he stayed with us for 4 days, with constant security presence as he made threats to several staff members.
I don't see a mental health crisis occurring with ET. I believe she had insight into what she was doing, and as far as I can tell she's using her mental health background as an excuse to lessen the severity of her involvement. She obviously has mental health issues, but she was warm and loving to her own children. I genuinely believe she didn't like Arthur (for whatever reason) and wanted him gone from her life.

I don’t see a crisis, I do see elements of personality disorder. My ex would bombard my phone constantly if I went out, he would threaten/attempt suicide if I tried to leave. He wasn’t in crisis, it was almost like it was the way he was wired. Constant.

We had violent offenders, sex offenders, some from the community, prison transfers and high security step downs; some were addicts and the addiction triggered their mental health conditions. They were all either a risk to themselves or others. They were all unique in their presentation.

 

[Chessgirl]

Ok I’m going to apologise in advance if I come off as blunt in what follows. No offence intended.

Mental health is such a huge spectrum that two people with the same condition can have completely different experiences of it. As I stated my abusive ex had BPD, he was violent, impulsive, struggled with relationships, lacked empathy. People with personality disorders can have more than one, BPD is cluster b along side histrionic, antisocial and narcissistic, so ET could well have had a combination of those. Narcissist is a word that gets used a lot, sometimes it’s applied to people who aren’t even really narcissistic.

Unmedicated/untreated mental illnesses like schizophrenia can be dangerous. Of course some people with it can be harmless, but some aren’t. I worked in a medium secure psychiatric hospital, that was always at full capacity with services users with personality disorders, mental illnesses or learning disabilities. If I told you some of the crimes they’d committed, you’d be glad they were in a secure facility. We were the security level lower than Broadmore and Rampton, some of our service users transferred from those facilities.

I could definitely see how someone with BPD could be abusive! That would be very traumatizing. BPD is on a spectrum. However it is very very misunderstood. From my own experience, therapy, support groups and research I can say that I have learned that those with BPD are not incapable of possessing empathy. When triggered, they have the ability to turn their empathy off and do some cruel things. They often feel intense remorse afterwards however unlike a narcissist who cannot feel remorse. It’s just hard for me to imagine someone with the ability to feel empathy at all to do something so horrific. If ET could feel even a speck of empathy I feel like we would have seen some of that.

 

[Dotta]

I don’t see a crisis, I do see elements of personality disorder. My ex would bombard my phone constantly if I went out, he would threaten/attempt suicide if I tried to leave. He wasn’t in crisis, it was almost like it was the way he was wired. Constant.

We had violent offenders, sex offenders, some from the community, prison transfers and high security step downs; some were addicts and the addiction triggered their mental health conditions. They were all either a risk to themselves or others. They were all unique in their presentation.

I salute you!
You must be very strong to carry on working in such stressful environment.

 

[ChloLo]

I could definitely see how someone with BPD could be abusive! That would be very traumatizing. BPD is on a spectrum. However it is very very misunderstood. From my own experience, therapy, support groups and research I can say that I have learned that those with BPD are not incapable of possessing empathy. When triggered, they have the ability to turn their empathy off and do some cruel things. They often feel intense remorse afterwards however unlike a narcissist who cannot feel remorse. It’s just hard for me to imagine someone with the ability to feel empathy at all to do something so horrific. If ET could feel even a speck of empathy I feel like we would have seen some of that.

TH is definitely presenting ET as somewhat abusive. She may have had some traits of narcissism along with BPD. It’s such a spectrum that I’m only making educated guesses based on the tiny amount or information that’s been released.

 

[ChloLo]

I salute you!
You must be very strong to carry on working in such stressful environment.

I don’t anymore and wouldn’t now I have kids. The hours are long and it’s emotionally draining.

 

[Tinksx]

With all mental health conditions, not just personality disorders.

All aspects of neuropathy then? That would actually make sense. I think it was ignorance on my part to be honest, I know a lot of disorders or neuropathic differences actually overlap with mental health issues. Thanks @ChloLo!

 

[Chessgirl]

TH is definitely presenting ET as somewhat abusive. She may have had some traits of narcissism along with BPD. It’s such a spectrum that I’m only making educated guesses based on the tiny amount or information that’s been released.

Right. I think the confusion comes in when there is someone with comorbid BPD and ASPD or NPD. I just get a little frustrated when I hear people say those with BPD cannot feel empathy, as most of us are empaths to the extreme. In fact if you do a google search you will find those with BPD have higher levels of emotional empathy. Sorry to keep going on about this.

 

[ScottishSam]

OK - so i've had a look through TH's time on the stand - and these are the examples I think suggest he treated Arthur as a mini adult, and not as a little boy. To me, he seems to have forgotten the massive upheavals Arthur had experienced in his life, he makes no allowances for the complex emotions Arthur would have been experiencing and there appears little awareness on his part to help Arthur cope with his circumstances. And also seems to have forgotten that he knew his son better than ET. There were several examples of him showing concern to his son - but I've not included them as this post isn't about that. Just in case anyone feels I'm clutching at straws or being unfair. All these screenshots were taken in the wider context of his answers.
And I apologise because they're not in chronological order!