GUILTY UK - Ashley Dale, 28 fatally shot at home, Liverpool - 21 Aug 2022

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  • #361
10:24Jonathan Humphries

Who is who in court​

Here is a reminder of who is who in the courtroom.
  • Prosecution: Lead Counsel Paul Greaney KC, assisted by junior counsel Alex Langhorn and Holly Menary

  • Defending Joseph Peers: Peter Wright KC, assisted by Christopher Stables
  • Defending Sean Zeisz: Adam Davies KC, assisted by Tim Forte
  • Defending Niall Barry: Stan Reiz KC, assisted by Katy Appleton
  • Defending Ian Fitzgibbon: Professor John Cooper KC, assisted by Jamie Baxter
  • Defending James Witham: Richard Pratt KC, assisted by Tom Watson
  • Defending Kallum Radford: Stephen Swift assisted by Kyra Badman
The trial judge is Mr Justice Goose


 
  • #362
10:41JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Brief conversation' with gunman​

The jury are seated, and we begin with Richard Pratt, KC, representing James Witham, rising to ask what he says will be “a few questions” of Sean Zeisz.
RP: “You said in the early hours of August 21, Niall Barry came into the bedroom where you were?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
RP: “You had a conversation with him, do you remember that?”
He nods “Yeah
RP: “Niall Barry was telling you of something James Witham had said to him?”
SZ: “Yes.”
RP: “What you said to the jury was you spoke to James Witham?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
RP: “Are you sure you spoke to James Witham?”
SZ: “Yeah I got up briefly, yeah.”
RP: “How long a conversation did you have?”
SZ: “Not long.”
RP: “You’re sure that was with James Witham and not Niall Barry?”
SZ: “Yeah.”

10:48KEY EVENT

Cross examination of Sean Zeisz begins​

Mr Pratt has no further questions.
Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting, begins his cross-examination of Sean Zeisz.
He begins by asking about Zeisz’s “reaction to the discovery there had been an attack by Witham at 40 Leinster Road, and that Ashley Dale had been killed”.
PG: “You explained to the jury that during the early hours of August 21, Niall Barry woke you up is that right?”
SZ: “I was awake but I was on the bed.”
PG: “You were in the bedroom not being used to grow cannabis?”
SZ: “Yes."
PG: “You explained that what Niall Barry said to you was this, have you heard what this soft c*** is saying? he’s saying he’s shot up Saz’s house’. What you were being told, assuming this is true, was that James Witham had confessed to Niall Barry that he had been to Lee Harrison’s home and discharged a firearm there?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You said you got up and asked a few questions. Should we understand you got up from the bed and went into the sitting room?”
SZ: “I was standing at the living room door.”
He agrees that James Witham and Niall Barry were there.
PG: “Was Michael Kershaw also there?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “What questions did you ask?”
SZ: “I just asked why’ve you done it? Lee’s a friend.”
PG: “Were these questions to Witham?”
SZ: “To Witham yeah. Why’ve you done that, I didn’t get an answer out of him.”
PG: “You told the jury you thought Witham was talking 🤬🤬🤬🤬 and you went back to bed?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “The next morning, when you were woken by Niall Barry, did you realise he hadn't been talking 🤬🤬🤬🤬?”
SZ: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Niall Barry woke you up screaming that James Witham had killed Ashley?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “On your account, by that stage you knew that James Witham had done something terrible.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “That with a firearm he had killed Ashley Dale?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “And done that in her own home?”
SZ: “I didn’t know it was in her own home.”
PG: “But you knew it was with a firearm?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You told the jury of your reaction. You said ‘my heart sank’.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You said ‘I was heartbroken, I was devastated’.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Is that what you wish the jury to accept was your reaction?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “I want to look at what you did while you were heartbroken so the jury can tell if you were telling the truth.”

10:55JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

"As you tucked into your Sunday roast, were you heartbroken?”​

Mr Greaney refers to CCTV recorded at 10.53am on August 21, showing Zeisz leaving the flat with Niall Barry.
PG: “This is you and Niall Barry going to conclude a drugs deal, is that right?”
SZ: “It is yeah.”
PG: “Were you heartbroken when you went to conclude that drugs deal?”
SZ: “Yes.”
Mr Greaney says that at 12.18pm, an ANPR camera recorded his car in Aigburth travelling towards Dingle.
PG: “This is you travelling to your mother’s home in order to have your Sunday lunch?”
SZ: “No this is towards Dingle.”
PG: “At some stage after this you went to your mother’s. As you tucked into your Sunday roast, were you heartbroken?”
SZ: “Of course I was, yeah.”
PG: “You told the jury you wanted to locate James Witham so he could be handed over to the police.”
SZ: “It was an idea yeah.”
PG: “You said we were going to lock him in the car and take him to the police station?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Was that your intention at one stage?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You felt so strongly that you yourself were contemplating taking him into your custody, and handing him over to the police?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “I want to see what you actually did to test whether you’re telling the truth. Do you agree You did not at any stage telephone James Witham himself?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Do you agree that at no stage within the first two hours after you discovered Ashley had been killed did you attempt to phone Joseph Peers?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure. I think i did phone him the next day”
Zeisz is shown a record of his phone calls.
PG: “At 12.21, you were called by Joseph Peers. it appears not to have connected. Can you agree this is the first recorded contact between you on the 21st after you got out of bed? Do you agree, notwithstanding your intention to lock Witham up within the first two hours, you appear to have made no attempt to contact Joseph Peers?”
SZ: “I didn’t make contact with him no, I never spoke to him.”
PG: “There is the single contact at 12.40 when you call Peers. There is contact lasting 46 seconds. You didn’t call him again. In that call did you tell Joseph Peers what James Witham had done?”
SZ: “Erm, no. I didn't say it over the phone no. I rang him and wanted to go and see him to see if he knew anything about it, if he was there.”
PG: “Did you ever see him that day?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “You didn’t call him that day either.”
SZ: “No. I’d asked Joe if he was with Witham in that phone call.”
PG: “You never called Witham and you had a solitary contact with Peers, do you agree?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Have you heard of Crimestoppers?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “A facility by which you can make an anonymous report of a crime. Did you call Crimestoppers to say I know who killed Ashley Dale, it was James Witham?”
SZ: “I didn't, no.”
PG: “Did you call the police to tell them what you knew?”
SZ: “I didn't, no.”

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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  • #363
10:59JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

"You were part of the plot to kill Lee Harrison"​

Mr Greaney continues: “Let’s see what you did when you were interviewed by the police. On August 30, you attended the police station. It was a couple of days after your house was searched by the police who were looking for you. You submitted a prepared statement. You said ‘I was not present at any time on Leinster Road. I’m not involved in the matter’. Do you agree, in that interview, nine days after a had been shot dead, you said not a word about the involvement you knew James Witham had had in her death?”
Zeisz replies: “Yes.”
PG: “You were interviewed next on August 31. On that occasion you simply declined to answer questions. During that second interview, you breathed not a word of what you knew of Witham’s involvement did you?”
SZ: “I didn’t no.”
PG: “You were interviewed thirdly and finally on February 13. You said ‘I called about three of four others, but had no luck. I also recall texting people. I eventually got Joe and asked him for cigarettes. He called me back and said he would drop some off. I didn’t know he was still with James Withasm until he came back to the flat. I went in the bedroom and went to sleep. I was woken by a door slamming about 4 or 5am and went back to sleep. I woke up about 11am’. You did give an account, you said not a word about the involvement you knew Witham had had in the killing of Ashley Dale?”
SZ: “No I didn't.”
PG: “You said nothing publically about Witham’s involvement until your defence statement, less than two weeks before the trial started.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You were not seeking to bring Witham to justice were you?”
SZ: “It was an idea, yeah. Between a few of us.”
PG: “An idea that meant you never contacted James Witham, had one contact with Peers and breathed not a word to the police?”
SZ: “I just wanted to stay away from him. After I had my roast dinner, I stayed away from him.”
PG: “As you made that drugs deal and tucked into your Sunday lunch you weren’t heartbroken.”
SZ: “I was yeah.”
PG: “Because you were part of the plot to kill Lee Harrison, killing anyone who got in the way of that plan.”
SZ: “I’ve got no reason to.”

11:17JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Zeisz 'had suspicions' Niall Barry could access firearms​

Mr Greaney continues: “You say you have no reason to, we’re going to get to the reason in due course. Having dealt with your reaction, let me tell you what the balance of my questions will look like. We’re going to look at your relationship with your co-accused and others. Secondly I'm going to ask you about 267 Pilch Lane and the confession of Witham. Thirdly, I'm going to ask you about the reason for the attack on 40 Leinster Road which will involve the events at Glastonbury and the suicide of Rikki Warnick. We will look at events on the night of August 20 and 21 and the following days.”
Zeisz says: “Ok thank you.”
PG: “The personalities. Your, nickname, do you agree, is Zest or sometimes ‘Z’.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Do you agree on WhatsApp you went by the name Edward Scissor?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Let me ask about your co-accused, or at least some of them. Niall Barry. how long have you known him for?”
SZ: “Since we were about 14, 15. We lived in the same area.”
PG: “You had known him for probably over a decade?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “In August last year were the two of you close?”
SZ: “Yeah I was seeing him in August, yeah.”
PG: “My question was do you agree the two of you were close friends?”
SZ: “We were friends yeah.”
PG: “Close friends?”
SZ: “I’d say that yeah.”
PG: “You felt comfortable talking about your relationship problems. The two of you were also in business weren’t you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Joseph Peers, the two of you had been friends since primary school?”
SZ: “Yes I went to school with him.”
PG: “You had probably known him the best part of two decades. Do you agree the two of you were close?”
SZ: “Yeah we were friends.”
PG: “From July, as you both shared the experience of relationships breaking down, your relationship became close?”
SZ: “Closer yeah.”
PG: “The two of you became close friends?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Ian Fitzgibbon. for how long had you known him?”
SZ: “Since i was about 17, 18. 10 years.”
PG: “Would you agree the two of you were close friends?”
SZ: “He was probably my closest friend.”
PG: “Through him, you met your partner Olivia McDowell.
SZ: “That’s correct yeah.”
PG: “James Witham. I think you knew him less well than the other three?”
SZ: “That’s correct yeah.”
PG: “For how long had you known James Witham?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure. Since Ii was about 21. I’d seen him through festivals.”
PG: “You’ve known Joseph Peers for about 20 years. You’ve known Ian Fitzgibbon and Niall Barry for about 10 years, and you’ve known James Witham for about five years. Although you weren’t as close to him, he was someone you would describe as a friend?”
SZ: “Yeah.””
Mr Greaney asks about Zeisz’s “occupation in 2022.”
PG: “In August last year you were a drug dealer by occupation?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “You traded in cocaine?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You traded in cannabis?”
SZ: “Yep.”
PG: “You traded in heroin?”
SZ: “Not so much, no.”
PG: “But sometimes?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “Would you deal in whatever drugs your customer wanted?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Can the world of drug dealing be a violent business from time to time?”
SZ: ”It can yeah.”
PG: “Have you encountered situations where drug dealers arm themselves with firearms?”
SZ: “I haven’t personally no.”
PG: “In July 2022 and August 2022, Niall Barry and James Witham had, on a number of occasions, both had possession and use of the Kyle line in order to organise the supply of crack cocaine and heroin in North Wales. Did you know in the summer of last year Niall Barry and James Witham were working together to supply drugs in North Wales?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Did you know Peers was also part of their enterprise in North Wales?”
SZ: “No I didn’t.”
PG: “You seemed to hesitate for a moment before answering. Did you know that Peers was part of the drug dealing operation in North Wales?”
SZ: “I didn’t no. i didn’t know anything about North Wales?”
PG: “Were you responsible for supplying the drugs providing by Barry and Witham to dealers in North Wales?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “No?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “You had supplied Niall Barry, you told the jury, with a kilogram of cocaine?”
SZ: “That once yeah. It’s not a constant thing.”
PG: “I think in your defence statement you talk about having supplied drugs to Niall Barry on a number of occasions.”
SZ: “In the past yeah.”
PG: “We know Niall Barry was supplying drugs in North Wales as part of the Kyle Line with James Witham. You were supply drugs to Niall Barry. Can’t you accept you were supplying the drugs provided by the Kyle Line in North Wales?”
NB: “He give it to a friend, I don’t think it was for that phone.”
PG: “You were a source of drugs?”
SZ: “Not his only source, he sees other people as well. Not just me.”
PG: “The drugs, he was dealing not in North Wales but in some other place.”
SZ: “I’m not too sure. You’d have to ask him. I think he give it to his friend.”
PG: “Can’t you accept, in the face of the bare facts, you were responsible for supplying drugs they supplied in North Wales?”
SZ: “I can’t be 100 per cent on that.”
PG: “Those of you in the dock, at least three of you, you Niall Barry and James Witham were involved in the supply of controlled drugs weren’t you?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “And was Ian Fitzgibbon involved as well?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “We know Niall Barry was a drug dealer. We know as well that he was able to access firearms. On April 10 2020, can you see that message.” Mr Greaney reads: “My other things are quite far dodgy on the road. That’s local. Just get that and skorp”.
He asks Zeisz: “You will know, tell me if i’m wrong, that things is a common slang term for firearms?”
SZ: “Correct yeah.”
PG: “And skorp is short for a Skorpion sub-machine gun?”
SZ: “That’s right.”
PG: “There we see Mr Barry referring to his Skorp. This is a discussion on April 19 the same year. Niall Barry to ‘BeigeSalad’. There’s been a shopping list of firearms provided to him. He asks can they be delivered. ‘Skorp, Tech and Grand Power will have. Get us prices’. Do you agree Mr Barry is placing an order for automatic weapons?”
SZ: “You can see it yeah.”
PG: “Later on that year, June 3 into the 4th, ‘ButterflySea’ sends a message to Niall Barry. ‘Max wants to buy a strap can you sort?’ Strap is slang for firearm.”
SZ: “Correct yeah.”
PG: “On the 4th, ‘what’s he after?’ asks Niall Barry. Then ButterflySea responds ‘yeah man he wants a sprayer. He wanted to see ya last night bro’. No doubt you’re familiar with the word sprayer to describe an automatic gun. Niall Barry then agrees he’s able to provide such a weapon. It rather looks like Niall Barry had access to automatic firearms, and you knew that didn’t you?”
SZ: “I had me suspicions. He never spoke to me about them.”
PG: “I’m going to ask you to have one more think about that. You knew Niall Barry was able to access machine guns didn’t you?”
SZ: “Correct yeah.”
PG: “Where did James Witham get the sub-machine gun he used to kill Ashley?”
SZ: “I couldn’t tell you. You’d have to ask him when he gets up, I don’t know.”
PG: “James Witham leaves the flat at 267Pilch Lane to go and kill Ashley with a Skorpion sub-machine gun. he happens to leave behind him among other people Niall Barry who was able to source Skorpion sub-machine guns. Do you agree?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “But you don’t know where James Witham got the gun from?”
SZ: “I don’t.”

11:22KEY EVENT

Zeisz: 'Hillsiders robbed Barry of cocaine worth £40,000'​

Mr Greaney asks: “There are of course some other personalities involved in this case. First of all Olivia McDowell. Was she an important person in your life in summer 2022?”
Zeisz replies: “Yeah.”
PG: “You’d met in 2017?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
PG: “Through your friend and her cousin Ian Fitzgibbon?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “In summer last year, certainly in June, did you regard her as being your partner?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Prior to G;astonbury, the two of you lived together as partners?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
PG: “At one stage, had the two of you imagined a life together?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Next, Lee Harrison. in August last year, for how long had you known him?”
SZ: “The same time as Niall.”
PG: “About 10 years.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Had you also known him from knocking around the Huyton area?”
SZ: “I knew him through his cousin. Josh.”
PG: “You’ve said you had no problem with him. I want to ask you about Niall Barry’s problem with him. You did know that Niall Barry had a problem or beef with Lee Harrison.”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “That was a beef that went back a number of years?”
SZ: “Yeah it did.”
PG: “What was it to do with?”
SZ: “Erm, Niall got robbed by people by Lee’s. He picked the lads by his. I don’t really know how to explain it. Niall got robbed by all the lads that hang around with lee. Lee stayed with them. Niall stopped speaking to them all.”
PG: “Do you mean he was robbed of drugs or money?”
SZ: “Drugs.”
PG: “A lot of drugs?”
SZ: “I’d say that yeah”
PG: “What type and quantity?”
SZ: “A key and a half of cocaine.”
PG: “You were retailing a kilo of cocaine for £27,000?”
SZ: “24. yeah.”
PG: “We’re talking about Niall Barry being robbed of drugs with a value approaching £40,000?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “The robbery was carried out by people who lived around Lee’s?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Are the people in that area sometimes known as Hillsiders?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Lee had sided with them, not with Niall Barry?”
SZ: “Yes.”

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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  • #364
11:27JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Zeisz: 'Ashley was a lovely girl'​

Mr Greaney moves on and asks: “Next, Ashley Dale. You knew her?”
Zeisz agrees.
PG: “For how long?”
SZ: “Since I was about 18, 17?”
PG: “You said she was a lovely girl?”
SZ: “She was.”
PG: “In summer last year, you knew she was the partner of Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “You knew the two of them lived together at 40 Leinster Road?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You told the jury last week that you had been to 40 Leinster Road to see Ashley and Lee at a time that was close to the date of the shooting.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Is that true?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “What were the circumstances in which you went to their home?”
SZ: “For a drink.”
PG: “Who invited you?”
SZ: “Lee.”
PG: “Are you sure about this?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “What I need to do is press you on the date. What was the date upon which you, you alone or you and Liv..”
SZ: “Olivia as well, yeah.”
PG: “What was the date on which you and Olivia visited 40 Leinster Road for a drink with Lee Harrison and Ashley?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure, I couldn’t tell you the date.”
PG: “It was close, you told us, to the date of the shooting. Is that right?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure, yeah.”
PG: “Was it after you came back from Glastonbury?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure.”
PG: “Glastonbury was a couple of months before the shooting. Just think. Was it before or after Glastonbury?”
SZ: “Erm. It would have been before and after. I went before and after. I’ve been there loads of times.”
PG: “We’re going to deal with Rikki’s death in due course, but the most recent time you went to Ashley and Lee’s house, was that before or after the funeral for Rikki?”
SZ: “I can’t remember. I don’t know. I was on drugs, I was drinking, I don’t remember.”
PG: “You said to your counsel it was close to the date of the shooting. Was it before or after the funeral of Rikki Warnick?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure.”
PG: “Are you sure at all you went to their house near to the date of the shooting?”
SZ: “Yeah I am.”

11:34JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Zeisz: 'Wally and Joker collected money for dealers'​

Mr Greaney contines: “Rikki Warnick, how long had you known him for?”
Zeisz replies: “Erm, 14 years, 15 years.”
PG: “He was a dear friend of yours?”
SZ: “He was yeah.”
PG: “You told the jury you were devastated by his suicide?”
SZ: “I was.”
PG: “To your mind, was his death completely unnecessary and avoidable. He took his own life didn’t he. His death was completely unnecessary so far as you were concerned, it didn’t need to have happened?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Did you go to his funeral?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “Did you go to his wake?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “At Ten Streets Social?”
SZ: “Yes.”
Mr Greaney moves on and asks: “Dusty. Jordan Thompson. In summer last year, you knew who Jordan Thompson was didn’t you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You knew that his nickname was Dusty?”
SZ: “Yep.”
PG: “You knew he was a friend of Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You knew the two of them were part of this group or gang called the Hillsiders.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “They were a gang of criminals involved in drug dealing?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “And stealing other people’s drugs?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “In summer last year, you knew Lee Harrison was associated with the HIllsides.”
SZ: “Mmmhmm.”
PG: “You knew Niall Barry had a reason to dislike strongly the Hillsiders?”
SZ: “Yes”
PG: “Finally, Wally and Joker. Are you able to tell us what their real names are?”
SZ: “No, I just know them as Wally and Joker.”
PG: “Are they also members of the Hillsiders gang?”
SZ: “No. Totally different firm.”
PG: “A totally different firm, by that do you mean another criminal gang?”
SZ: “Different people.”
PG: “Are they criminals as well?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure what they get up to.”
PG: “Are they involved in the supply of drugs?”
SZ: “Wally and Joker? I’m not too sure.”
PG: “I think you may have told us last week, or at least said at one stage, you knew someone who owed Wally and Joker money for drugs?”
SZ: “No no, Wally and Joker’s friend. They were just collecting the bill.”
PG: “You don’t know whether they dealt drugs themselves but they were involved in debt collecting on behalf of drug dealers?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Were they involved in the criminal world as you and your friends were?”
SZ: “I can’t say. I don’t know whether they were dealing in drugs.”

11:39JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Flat 'stank of cannabis'​

Mr Greaney continues: “267 Pilch Lane and Witham’s confession. We will probably leave Witham’s confession until after the break. During summer 2022, you did spend some time at 267 Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “I’d been round there yeah.”
PG: “On a number of occasions?”
SZ: “A couple of times yes. Several.”
PG: “It’s a flat above a shop?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “It’s not a big flat is it.”
SZ: “Not really no.”
PG: “In this flat, we had six grown men didn’t we. at various stages there were a number of men, six i think, in this flat.”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
PG: “We can see the sitting room in a couple of the photographs. In the summer of last year the flat was being used to grow cannabis?”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
PG: “And you knew that?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “When you went to the flat on August 20, that’s the night you told us you went to watch the boxing and Witham left to kill Ashley Dale. When you were there, there was a big bag of cannabis on a tray on the table. There was a big bag of cannabis on the floor?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “The place literally stank of cannabis didn't it?”
SZ: “It did yeah.”
PG: “It was obvious to you there was cannabis there.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “It was obvious those in that room had been smoking cannabis.”
SZ: “It was obvious.”
PG: “No one who visited that flat that night could have doubted that activity connected with cannabis dealing was going on there. It would have been obviously?”
SZ: “It would yeah.”
PG: “When you arrived, Peers was already there in a flat. He was in the sitting room.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “The bag of cannabis was there for him to see?”
SZ: “On the tray there.”
PG: “And the cannabis was there for him to smell?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
PG: “Whilst you were there in the flat, i’m not being in any way judgemental, you smoked cannabis didn’t you?”
SZ: “I did, yeah.”
PG: “And others were smoking cannabis as well?”
SZ: “Everybody.”
PG: “Have I correctly assumed that the group of you there were smoking cannabis that was already in the flat?”
SZ: “No, no, only a couple. Some people don’t smoke green.”
PG: “What kind of cannabis? Was it cannabis leaf?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
PG: “Were at least some of the people in that flat smoking cannabis that was already there?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Do you agree when Witham and Peers returned to the flat in the early hours, there was still cannabis there wasn’t there?”
SZ: “Green, yeah.”
PG: “And there was green there for them to smoke if that’s what they wanted to do.”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
The court will now break for a short time, resuming at 12pm.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
 
  • #365
12:14JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Witham's 'confession'​

Mr Greaney says: “I’m turning now to the period after Witham and Peers had returned to the flat in the early hours of the 21st, specifically to the confession that Witham made. I’m going to see if you can help us with the time that happened.”
Mr Greaney refers to Zeisz’s 21-page defence statement, dated September 21 this year. He
He reads from the statement: “The main event, UFC fight, was not on until 3am. But the plan was to stay up to watch it.”
PG: “That’s what you said in this carefully drawn defence statement?”
SZ: “Yes.”
Mr Greaney reads: “Mr Zeisz fell asleep and missed the main event fight.”
PG: “You fell asleep before the main event UFC?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You were saying you had fallen asleep before 3am, because that was the time of the fight?”
SZ: “I don’t think the fight started at 3am. I think it was a bit late.”
Mr Greaney says the defence statement indicates that Zeisz fell asleep before the main event and missed the fight.
Zeisz agrees.
PG: “The fight was not on until 3am. You fell asleep and missed the main event?”
SZ: “Yeah I didn’t watch it.”
PG: “It appears you fell asleep before 3am?”
SZ: “Erm no, I think it was after.”
PG: “If it was after you’d have seen the main event fight.”
SZ: “I don’t think the fight started at 3. It was estimated to start at 3am.”
Mr Greaney says he will be “entirely frank where I am going with this”.
PG: “I’m trying to establish whether Joseph Peers was or wasn’t there in order to hear what you say Witham said. You say the fight was 3am and you were asleep by the time it started?”
SZ: “I didn’t watch it, yeah.”
PG: “On the basis of your def statement, it would follow you had fallen asleep before 3am.” Otherwise you would have seen the fight?”
SZ: “I think it was after 3am, but the fight hadn’t started. It was about 4 o'clock. It was late. I think it started at 4.”
PG: “Is Joseph Peers still a friend of yours?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You make clear that before you fell asleep Niall Barry had told you about Witham’s confession?”
SZ: “I was already in bed when he come in and woke me up. I was just on the bed texting.”
PG: ““We can see at 1.25am, Witham and Peers are arriving back at the flat. It’s about an hour and 50 minutes later that Joseph Peers leaves. We see him leave at 3.16. Was Joseph Peers present at the time that you say Witham made his confession?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure.”
PG: “In the one hour and 50 mins Joseph Peers was in the flat what was being spoken about. At what stage did Witham make his confession?”
SZ: “What time? I’m not too sure about the time. I had a few goes of a spliff and went to bed. Niall woke me up.”
PG: “How long after they returned to the flat do you believe you were told Witham had confessed?
SZ: “I’m not too sure, it was a while though. It was a while.”

12:25JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Zeisz 'asked Dusty if he had hit me in Glastonbury'​

Mr Greaney says he will ask about “the issue of motive” and “why it was there was an attack on 40 Leinster Road”.
PG: ““We will begin with Glastonbury. you went to Glastonbury in June last year?”
Zeisz: “Yes.”
PG: “You went together with your then girlfriend Liv McDowell?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “We know others from Liverpool were there. Let me ask whether you saw any of them? First of all Ashley?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “And you spent some time with her?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “After you had been assaulted, Liv spent a lot of time with her?”
SZ: “Not a lot of time.”
PG: “We know Lee Harrison was there, did you see him there and spent some time in his company?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “Ian Fitzgibbon was also there, did you see him?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
PG: “How much time did you spend in his company?”
SZ: “Not much.”
Zeisz says this was on the Friday, adding “I seen him on the Sunday as well”.
PG : “Dusty, did you see him?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Niall Barry was also there at Glastonbury last year. Did you see him?”
SZ: “No I never.”
PG: “This was a friend of yours going to Glastonbury. Did you know he was going to Glastonbury?”
SZ: “I don’t think so, no.”
PG: “You didn’t see him.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “But you were speaking up for him while you were there?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “What about Joseph Peers. Did you see him at Glastonbury itself.”
SZ: “I didn’t no.”
PG: “Do you agree with him that you did speak to him by telephone?”
SZ: “No, I didn't no”.
PG: “Did you have any missed calls from him?”
SZ: “Me battery was going. I can’t recall no.”
PG: “If you had spoken to Joseph Peers, would you have told him about the problems you were having?”
SZ: “I'd have told him if it there was a problem yeah.”
PG: “That problem you had, whilst you were there you were assaulted?”
SZ: “I was yeah.”
PG: “I believe you told us that happened in front of Olivia McDowell?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “And these are your words. You ran away and you hid?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Did you feel humiliated that all that had happened in front of your then partner Liv?”
SZ: “Just more worried about getting hit again.”
PG: “Let me use a different word. You’d been punched in front of your girlfriend, your reaction had been to run away and hide. You were at the very least embarrassed by the fact that had happened and that was the way you reacted given it happened in front of your girlfriend?”
SZ: “Well yeah, yeah.”
PG: “You’d been hit, which can’t have been nice, do you agree?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Your reaction wasn’t to stand and fight but run away and hide.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “All of that had happened in front of your girlfriend. My question is were you embarrassed that Liv had seen you run away from a fight?”
SZ:“A little bit yeah. I was more worried about more trouble breaking out. I’d been threatened before.”
PG: “I’m going to ask who it was who assaulted you. First I’m going to ask about an exchange of messages between Ashley and her friend Sophie on june 27, just after the return from Glastonbury.”
A message from Ashley is displayed on the court TV screens. She wrote: “Zest got smacked saturday and again last night by all Joker and that. Dusty hit him too. I dunno if Liv got hit. She ended up legging Zest and staying with us, with Dusty.”
PG: “Ashley was reporting to Sophie that Dusty had been involved in the assault upon you and Liv had legged you, left you to stay with her and Lee Harrison. You agree Ashley was there at Glastonbury. I’m not going to suggest she saw the assault. After you were assault she spent at least some time with Liv, and Liv had been there when you were assaulted?”
SZ: “She was yeah.”
PG: “Do you know any reason Ashley developed such a misunderstanding about Dusty’s involvement?”
SZ: “He was there in the area, but he didn’t hit me. I asked him the following day, did you hit me? He said no.”
PG: “The fact you had to ask him if he hit you might suggest you didn’t know who hit you.”
SZ: “Yeah I knew yeah, I knew who it was.”
PG: “Why did you ask him?”
SZ: “Because Ashley had said it to Liv. The next day when we broke up, Liv said Ashley said he hit you. I said he never. I said did you hit me yesterday, he said no no. it was nothing to do with me there was Chinese whispers everywhere. Everyones saying Dusty’s done zesty.”
PG: “Is he very big or powerfully built?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “Is he quite small and slightly built?”
SZ: “I’d say similar to me.”
PG: “Would it be embarrassing to be punched by Dusty?”
SZ: “No.”

12:35KEY EVENT

Ashley Dale 'describes Glastonbury feud in voice note'​

Mr Greaney says: “I’m going to ask questions next about what happened after Glastonbury. I’m going to suggest things deteriorated badly. I’m going to ask that we listen to what Ashley said herself about the period after Glastonbury. We’re going to listen to a voice note from August 6, just two weeks before Ashley was killed. It’s a voice note to Sophie.”
This voice note is played to the court.
In it, Ashley says: “LIKE, THAT WAS ALL OVER BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY LIKE WALLY AND THAT LIKE DON’T LIKE BRANCH AND WHATEVER. BUT LIKE, EVEN AFTER THAT HAPPENED IN, IN, IN GLASTO, LEE W..WAS WITH LIV AND ZEST AFTER IT. AND LIKE, THAT WERN’T EVEN ANYTHING TO DO WITH LEE. LIKE, OBVIOUSLY LEE HATES BRANCH, BUT LIKE, LEE WAS JUST, L…LEE JU..LEE JUST TRIES
HIS BEST TO STAY OUT OF IT ALL. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. BECAUSE LIKE, HE CAN’T BE ARSED, HE CAN’T BE ARSED WITH MURDER.
LIKE, THE THING WITH LEE IS, LIKE OBVIOUSLY WE…WE’VE HAD TO PROPER LIKE SPEAK ABOUT IT..IT ALL THIS WEEK PROPERLY. BECAUSE LIKE, LIKE I’VE HAD TO SAY TO HIM LIKE, YOU NEED TO JUST BE HONEST ABOUT EVERYTHING LIKE. YOU NEED TO TELL ME EVERYTHING. BECAUSE I DON’T NORMALLY WANNA KNOW, BUT LIKE, YOU’VE HALF GOTTA PREPARE ME FOR THE WORST, LIKE, I NEED TO KNOW LIKE WHAT COULD HAPPEN. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. I SAID LIKE DON’T SUGAR COAT A…ANY OF THIS SITUATION WITH BRANCH TO ME AND THAT, CAUSE LIKE HE NEEDED TO BE HONEST WITH ME AND WHATEVER. BUT LIKE, I KNOW THAT LIKE, LIKE LEE DOESN’T WANT THIS. LIKE LEE SAID TO ME IF BRANCH COME TO ME AND SAID LET’S QUASH IT, HE WENT I WOULD SQUASH IT. HE SAID I DON’T WANNA HAVE MURDER WITH HIM. HE WENT, I DON’T WANT ALL THIS TO BE HAPPENING WITH HIM.
HE SAID BECAUSE, HE’S NOT WORTH THIS, HE SAID, HE’S NOT WORTH ME…ME…ME ENDING UP IN JAIL OR OR WH…WHEREVER LIKE WORSE. HE SAID, HE’S NOT WORTH IT. HE SAID, I DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE HAPPENING, THIS MURDER, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
SO LIKE OBVIOUSLY, LEE’S OBVIOUSLY ALWAYS SPOKE TO ZEST, EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW HE WAS MATES WITH BRANCH. SO AFTER THAT HAPPENED IN GLASTO, EVERYONE, LEE LOST EVERYONE
BECAUSE HE STAYED WITH LIV CAUSE LIV WAS IN HYSTERICS CRYING ON THE FLOOR. HE WENT, COME AND GOT ME, BECAUSE I JUST KEPT L…LEAVING LEE IN GLASTO, CAUSE HE WAS JUST FOLLOWING EVERYONE, HE WAS DOING ME HEAD IN. SO, I WAS JUST DOING ME OWN THING. AND HE’S COME AND GOT ME FROM LIKE BY THE BAR, IN THE GAS TOWER. AND LIKE, BEEN LIKE COME AND YOU NEED TO COME AND SORT LIV OUT AND THAT. AND I DIDN’T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAD HAPPENED. SOMEONE, SOMEONE SAID TO ME, LIKE I THINK IT WAS BETH AND KAYLA AND THAT, CAUSE I THINK I WAS SPEAKING TO THEM AT THE BAR, IM SURE IT WAS HER MATE OR SOMETHING SAID. I’M SURE LIV’S FELLAS JUST BEEN SMACKED THERE YOU KNOW. AND I WAS JUST LIKE, F*** OFF REALLY, I WAS LIKE NAHHHHH, SO NO. I…I WAS LIKE, BUT C..CAUSE I DIDN’T SEE THAT, I LIKE I DIDN’T THINK THAT HE HAD, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. AND THEN LEE’S RAN OVER AND BEEN LIKE, F****** COME OVER HERE LIKE, LIV’S CRYING AND THAT. SO I’VE WENT OVER, AND THEN FIVE MINUTES LATER ZEST POPPED UP WITH A FIRE EXTINGUISHER IN HIS ARMS. AND THE, AND THEN IAN’S POPPED UP FROM NOWHERE. AND LIKE LEE WAS WITH THEM, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. SO LIKE, THIS IS NOT, THAT WEREN’T EVEN ANYTHING TO DO WITH LEE THEN, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. LIKE LEE WAS STILL;;;. LEE SAID TO WALLY BEFORE IT HAPPENED, NAH LAD DON’T, HE’S WITH HIS BIRD AND THAT, JUST JUST LEAVE IT LIKE, DON’T BE SMACKING HIM HERE AND THAT, JUST WAIT TIL YOUR HOME AND LIKE, LIKE DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. AND THEN WALLY WAS LIKE, OH , DO YOU RECKON AND THEN STILL ENDING UP SMACKING HIM, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. LIKE LEE HALF TRIED TO LIKE, LIKE KEEP THE PEACE, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
BUT, THAT’S GOT NOTHING REALLY, DUSTY JUST GOT HIMSELF INVOLVED FOR NO REASON, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. BUT, DUSTY, OBVIOUSLY AND ZEST, SEEN EACH OTHER IN…IN…IN GLASTO AFTER IT HAPPENED AND NOTHING HAPPENED. AND, BUT THEN OBVIOUSLY, LIV GOT SEEN WALKING WITH DUSTY THE NEXT DAY, AND THEN OBVIOUSLY THAT’S WHY ZEST LEGGED HER. SO, AT THIS POINT, IF LIV WOULDN’T HAVE WENT AND LEGGED URMM SEAN AND WENT AND SEEN DUSTY, THIS MURDER WOULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED. IT MIGHT OF IF THEY SEEN EACH OTHER OUT, LIKE SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED OR IF DUSTY SEEN ZEST OUT, LIKE SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED. BUT THE LIKELIHOOD IS HE WOULDN’T PROBABLY SEE ZEST OUT BECAUSE LIKE, HE, YOU DON’T REALLY SEE HIM OUT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
SO, BY LIV GOING AND SEEING DUSTY, HAS BROUGHT ALL THIS ON. AND THAT IS WHY DUSTY’S WENT OVER AND DONE THAT. NOT OVER LIV, LIKE OBVIOUSLY YEAH, CAUSE HE’S HATING ON ZEST. BUT HE HALF HAS WENT AND DONE IT BECAUSE OF WHAT’S ALL BEEN BROUGHT ON THAT WEEK. SO, LIKE, I….IT HALF IS, NOT I’M NOT SAYING IT’S HER FAULT AND IT’S OVER HER. BUT, LIKE, IF
SHE WOULDN’T HAVE WENT AND SEEN DUSTY THAT, ALL THAT 🤬🤬🤬🤬 WOULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
THE BRANCH SITUATION WITH LEE IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY. THE FACT THAT LIV HAS WENT AND SEEN DUSTY, HAS HALF AGGRAVATED THE BRANCH SITUATION NOW. BECAUSE SHE OBVIOUSLY WAS WITH ZEST, AND SHE’S OBVIOUSLY MY MATE AND SPEAKS TO LEE AND OBVIOUSLY LEE SPEAKS TO LIKE ZEST AND WHATEVER. SO THAT HALF KEPT THE PEACE A LITTLE BIT WITH THE BRANCH SITUATION AND THAT’S WHY NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED. AND NOW LIV’S NOT WITH ZEST, HES LIKE WELL F*** HER AND F*** ANYTHING THAT SHE CARED ABOUT. AND NOW OBVIOUSY, CAUSE LEE’S MATES WITH DUSTY, ZEST’S OBVIOUSLY THINKING WELL F*** LEE. SO NOW BRANCH IS ON HIS HIGH HORSE AND NOW LEE’S GOT DRAGGED BACK INTO IT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. BUT IF SHE WOULDN’T HAVE SPLIT UP WITH ZEST, AND WENT AND SEEN DUSTY, I DON’T RECKON ANY OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. AND I DON’T RECKON LEE WOULD HAVE HAD THAT FURTHER MURDER WITH BRANCH ON THE PHONE EITHER THE OTHER DAY.
BUT, LIKE BRANCH WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN F***** SAYING HE WAS COMING DOWN THE ESTATE AND ALL THAT, IF LIV HADN’T DONE THIS, BECAUSE THAT’S JUST AGGRAVATED EVERYTHING. AND, SHE SHE SHE EVEN SAID THAT TO ME HERSELF, THE NIGHT WHEN IT ALL HAPPENED, SHE SAID THIS IS ALL MY FAULT BECAUSE LIKE I WAS THE PEACE MAKER BASICALLY, AND NOW I’M DRAGGING YOU AND LEE INTO IT ALL.”

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Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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  • #366
12:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'There was nothing holding back Niall Barry'​

Mr Greaney says: “Ashley has provided a lot of information to Sophie there in the space of a couple of minutes. I’m going to break it down and see what you agree with and what you disagree with. Ashley was describing a long standing dispute between Lee Harrison and Niall Barry. You agree there was that dispute?”
Zeisz says: “Yeah.”
PG: “Do you agree that Lee hated Niall Barry?”
SZ: “They didn’t speak, yeah.”
PG: “Ashley said after you’re assaulted, Liv was in hysterics. Do you agree with that?”
SZ: “Yeah. I’m not too sure. I wasn’t there.”
PG: “And that Ashley had looked after Liv?”
SZ: “That’s what Lee said to me?”
PG: “She said afterwards, you popped up and so did Ian. Do you agree with that?”
SZ: “Just bumped into each other, yeah.”
PG: “Do you accept that shortly after you were assaulted you bumped into Ian Fitzgibbon. Did you tell him what had happened?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “She said again Dusty was involved in the attack upon you. You disagree with that?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Ashley went on to say l had been seen walking with Dusty the next day and that’s why you legged her. Had Liv been seen walking with Dusty the next day?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Had you become angry about that?”
SZ: “No I believed there was nothing in it. She told me it was innocent. He was 10 years younger. This is on the Monday when we’ve come out of the festival.”
PG: “By that monday you’d been embarrassed by running away from the fight?”
SZ: “I seen them on the Sunday and spoke to the lads who hit me, it was all done. Forgotten about.”
PG: “You were embarrassed about Liv been seeing walking with Dusty. She’d been seen with her arms around him.”
SZ: “Yes, something like that.”
PG: “A said if Liv wouldn’t have went and legged Sean and went and seen Dusty this murder wouldn’t have happened. Liv by going and seeing Dusty has brought all this, this being the problems she was having and Lee was having.”
SZ: “It was nothing to do with Lee.”
PG: “From those small origins, a really deep feud reignited.”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “Ashley added the Branch situation with Lee is a totally different story?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “The fact Lee has went and seen Dusty has half aggravated the Branch situation now. She went on to say that the relationship between Liv and you had kept the peace between you and Lee Harrison and Niall Barry. Do you agree while you were going out with Liv the peace had been kept because Liv was friends with Ashley?”
SZ: “I don’t really agree with that.”
PG: “She said now your relationship with Lee was over, the beef was back on.”
SZ: “No. wrong.”
PG: “That’s the truth of what happened isn’t it?”
SZ: “It’s not no.”
PG: “For as long as you were in that relationship, the peace between Harrison and Barry was kept.”
SZ: “That’s wrong.”
PG: “Once that relationship was gone, as it was, there was nothing to hold back Niall Barry. That’s what happened isn't it?”
SZ: “No.”
PG: “What was behind those events on August 21 started in Glastonbury, which reignited that feud between Barry and Harrison?”
SZ: “It didn't, no.”
PG: “The simple fact of the matter is you were humiliated at Glastonbury. Dusty then took up with Liv. Dusty was friends with Lee Harrison. All of that reignited that feud between the two men and you were part of it”
SZ: “No. it had nothing to do with Liv.”

12:51KEY EVENT

'Tell Zest that's for him'​

Mr Greaney continues: “In that voice note we listened to, Ashley mentioned something that Dusty had done. It concerns the discharge of a firearm by Dusty in the area of the home of Rikki Warnick’s mother. Did you know that the gang of which Dusty was part had access to firearms?”
Zeisz says : “Erm, yeah.”
PG: “We’ll listen to Ashley’s own account, based on a conversation she had with Dusty himself. This is a voice note just before the one we listened to earlier.”
This voice note is also played to the court.
Ashley says: “AS WELL LIKE, OBVIOUSLY LIKE IT IS LIKE, SO BAD LIKE, DUSTY SHOULD NOT HAVE WENT AND DONE THAT OU…OUTSIDE RIKKIS. BUT LIKE, I LIKE, I ACTUALLY KNOW THE PROPER STORY NOW LIKE, I…I’VE FOUND, LIKE I GOT LIKE THE PROPER STORY LAST NIGHT. SO BASICALLY, HE’S, OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE’S RANG HIM AND SAID ZEST’S IN RIKKIS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHOEVER’S BEEN THERE HAS LIKE OBVIOUSLY, I DON’T KNOW. THERE’S BEEN THAT MANY PEOPLE THERE, BUT IT’S OBVIOUSLY BEEN SOMEONE THAT THEY SPEAK TO. SO SOMEONE’S OBVIOUSLY RANG HIM AND BEEN LIKE, ZEST’S IN RIKKIS. SO HE’S FLEW OVER. PEOPLE WERE SAYING THAT LIKE HE WAS WITH SOMEONE AND ALL THAT, BUT HE WASN’T, HE WASN’T WITH ANYONE. LIKE HE WAS ON HIS OWN. AND HE’S ACTUALLY SAID THIS TO ME, HIMSELF.
“AND HE’D GONE OVER TO RIKKIS AND OBVIOUSLY LIKE, H..HE PROBABLY WAS GONNA DO SOMETHING IF HE SEEN ZEST LIKE COMING OUT THE HOUSE, HE PROBABLY WAS. AND LIKE, IT’S F***** BAD LIKE, H..HE SHOULDN’T HAVE DONE IT LIKE, HE’S TOTALLY IN THE WRONG. AND LIKE, I…I SAID TO HIM LIKE, OBVIOUSLY DON’T SAY THIS TO ANYONE ELSE THAT I’VE SPOKEN TO HIM OR ANYTHING, BECAUSE I CAN’T EVEN BE ARSED. LIKE, LEE’S EVEN KEPT HIM AT ARMS LENGTH TO BE HONEST. BUT WE WENT, WE HAD TO GO, WE WENT AND PICK SOMETHING UP OFF HIM LAST NIGHT, SO LIKE OBVIOUSLY LIKE I WAS SPEAKING TO HIM FOR LIKE FIVE MINUTES, WHILE WE WERE WAITING OUTSIDE.
AND URMM, WHEN WE WERE ON OUR WAY BACK, LIKE OBVIOUSLY I WAS JUST LIKE SAYING LIKE F****** , IT’S JUST HEAVY AND THAT LIKE. YOU SH..SHOULDN’T HAVE WENT AND DONE THAT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. BUT, OBVIOUSLY DON’T TELL ANYONE THAT I’VE SPOKEN TO HIM, CAUSE I CAN’T BE ARSED WITH ANYONE F*****, HATING ON ME [LAUGHS] DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN., BUT ANYWAY, HE WAS, YEAH HE JUST SAID LIKE Y..YOU KNOW YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE DONE IT, LIKE IT WEREN’T THE PLACE OR THE TIME LIKE. YOU WERE ALREADY LOOKING BAD, AND LIKE, Y..YOU LOOK EVEN WORSE NOW, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN AND WHATEVER. ANYWAY., HE WAS LIKE, HE WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW. H..HE SAID WHAT I DONE WAS, HE SAID, OBVIOUSLY IWOULD OF DONE SOMETHING IF…IF I WOULD HAVE SEEN HIM COMING OUT THE HOUSE OR LIKE WHEN HE WAS GETTING IN A CAR OR WHATEVER, BUT HE NEVER. HE SAID HE SEEN [redacted] AND [redacted] AND HE’S WENT OVER TO THEM .ON A ON A BIKE AND JUST, LIKE LET, LIKE THAT LIKE THING OFF AND F***** WENT TELL ZEST THAT’S FOR HIM. SO LIKE, HE ACTUALLY DIDN’T LIKE DO IT AT THE HOUSE. BUT LIKE, IT DOESN’T MAKE IT ANY BETTER THAT HE’S WENT OVER WITH ANYTHING, AND DONE THAT. DOESN’T MAKE IT ANY BETTER OR CONDONE WHAT HES DONE. BUT THAT’S THE ACTUAL STORY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
AND THEN, OBVIOUSLY F***** AFTER HE’S DONE IT,, HE’S LIKE WENT BACK OVER TO THE ESTATE AND THAT. AND THEN OBVIOUSLY LIKE LEE COME, LIKE LEE’S HEAD WAS GONE WHEN HE COME IN HERE THAT NIGHT, CAUSE OBVIOUSLY LIKE, HE SAID LIKE, OBVIOUSLY I ALREADY KNEW AT THIS POINT WHAT HAD HAPPENED, BECAUSE I WAS WITH **** SO SHE GOT THE PHONE CALL OFF DAN, WHILE I WAS WITH HER. BUT THEN, LIKE AS SOON AS LEE’S, LIKE LEE’S RANG ME AND BEEN LIKE, I’M COMING HOME, I’M NEVER COMING UP HERE AGAIN. AND LIKE HIS HEAD WAS GONE AND THAT. AND HE WAS JUST LIKE, I JUST CAN’T EVEN COPE WITH WHAT EVEN IS EVEN GOING ON UP THERE, AND WHATEVER. AND I WAS JUST LIKE [SIGHS] IT’S F****** HEAVY.”

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Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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  • #367
12:57JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Branch is out for Lee'​

Mr Greaney says: “We heard Ashley talking about something she described as f***** heavy. What she was talking about was Dusty having thought you were at the home of Rikki Warnick’s mother, going up there and discharging a firearm saying tell Zest that’s for him. Did you become aware that had happened?”
Zeisz says: “I’d heard rumours and gossip. I phoned Rikki’s mum and asked her. She said no, no one’s been here.”
PG: “In a moment we’re going to turn to events concerning Rikki’s death. You blamed Dusty for his death didn’t you?”
SZ: “Everyone did, yeah.”
PG: “On top of your humiliation at Glastonbury.”
SZ: “Glastonbury was nothing to do with Dusty.”
PG: “On top of the fact Dusty was now seeing, it would seem, Liv, comes the fact that the man Liv is now knocking around with has caused Rikki’s death. First of all I want to ask about events at Glastonbury concerning Niall Barry.”
Mr Greaney returns to written text messages between Ashley and Sophie, dated July 3. They are displayed on the court TV monitors.
Ashley Dale: “Branch is out for Lee isn’t he. There been murder again. My nerves are gone over it all.
Sophie: “Don’t lie why?”
AD: “Just still over the murder few years ago when they fell out. Branch is back on his high horse. Dunno where he’s popped back up from. He was in glasto. Pulled a big knife out to Ian Fitz and said where’s Saz he’s getting stabbed up.”
S: “Omg what the hell”
AD: “But like he knows where we live, and his mum.”
S: “Is that over when he got robbed?”
AD: “So like if ye gonna do something, it’s been three years. Yeah.”
S: “I don’t know the full story, just heard years ago the hillsiders robbed him. Why not do something about it three years ago?”
AD: “Lee never took his side and they was best mates but branch had been bumping lee for ages saying he owed so much when he was putting stuff in the work so really he owed less and lee used to answer all the phone so all the running round so branch was taking the piss out of lee. He was threatning to come here, but he never come.”
S: “Don’t lie, heavy that.”
AD: “He just disappeared for years and now obviously someone’s rattled hs cage. It’s scary cos he’s on some pure rampage.”
S: “Obviously lee is with the hillsides. So like is branch going to take them all on. Cos zest wont back him.”
AD: “Well that’s what lee is saying, thats why he hasn’t really done anything. He knows lee has everyone backing him and they aren’t assed.”
S: “He’s horrible him. He used to knock me sick. Freak.”
Mr Greaney says: “We can see in that passage, Ashley described Lee as having the backing of the Hillsiders. You agree that’s correct?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Ashley was saying Niall Barry was on one side of a dispute and the Hillsiders were on the other?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “What I want to ask is the suggestion Ashley made, which she made in other messages as well, that at Glastonbury Niall Barry had pulled out a big knife to Ian Fitzgibbon and said where’s Saz he’s getting stabbed up. Did you become aware at Glastonbury that Niall Barry had done that?”
SZ: “I didn’t, no.”

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Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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  • #368
14:19JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Zeisz 'intended to frighten and intimidate ex girlfriend'​

Mr Greaney rises to resume cross-examination: He says: “We are still dealing with the motive for the attack on 40 Leinster Road. I want to look at what you were saying to Liv herself.”
Mr Greaney asks the court usher to hand the jury some printed documents. They are a transcript of a series of text messages sent between Zeisz and his ex-girlfriend, Olivia McDowell.
PG: “These messages provide the foundation for a suggestion that you were in a state of absolute rage about what was happening between Liv and Dusty. They cover a period from late July up to the time of Ashley’s killing. Do you accept these are messages you were exchanging by WhatsApp with Liv?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “They begin on Friday, July 29. You sent Liv a message saying ‘you’re really picking that smackhead up again from town’. Was the smackhead Dusty?”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
PG: “Were you intending to suggest he was a user of class A drugs?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “You added ‘you been seen’. Someone had seen her picking Dusty up?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Wow, see when people see you they’re gonna batter you’. Were you suggesting as a result of associating with him someone was going to assault her?”
SZ: “Yeah, one of her family.”
PG: “You said ‘trust me’, then you said ‘you f****** little tramp’. Obviously an insulting term for a young woman. Is that what you intended? To insult her?”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “Picking him up in your car last night from town. Then you added, ‘you are vomit you know’. A rather graphic insult. Was it right someone had seen her picking Dusty up?”
SZ: “No I don't think so.”
PG: “Were you just making this up?”
SZ: “I was trying to catch her out.”
PG: “She replied ‘what? I’ve been in Tom’s’. What is the reference to Tom’s?”
SZ: “That’s her friend.”
PG: “You weren’t satisfied it seems with that explanation. You replied ‘got that little rat in the car’. You were trying to catch out liv in her association with Dusty?”
SZ: “I just thought these messages were when I was away in Portugal.”
PG: “I was assuming you’d returned to the UK by July 29. Had someone told you Liv had been seen picking up Dusty?”
SZ: “They had yeah.”
PG: “Did you have people around Liverpool watching the movements of Liv?”
SZ: “No, they were just out together.”
PG: “Who was it who told you?”
SZ; “Just a friend.”
PG: “You said’ got that little rat in the car’, the little rat being a reference to Dusty. She was asking what you were on about, swearing on her nan’s life. Were you saying someone had videoed her picking up Dusty? Was it true?”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
PG: “How was it that people knew you were so interested that they filmed her?”
SZ: “I’d been with her for five years. I didn’t have people out watching her. These are just friends telling me the truth.”
PG: “You carry on; ‘why has he got you in his?’ Why has tom got you in his house, Whoever round you getting it as well’. Did that mean whoever was associated with liv could expect to be assaulted too?”
SZ: “Yeah. At the time I was angry.”
PG: “I appreciated that. The question is how angry, which we will get to. You wanted Liv, your former partner, to believe not only was she getting assaulted but anyone with her would be assaulted as well?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “She explained she’d gone to Tom’s because she didn’t have a telly, then you replied ‘you choose your side’. Did you mean ‘you chose your side?”
SZ: “I meant chose yeah.”
PG: “There on July 29, you were saying to Liv she had chosen her side?”
SZ: “I have yeah. That’s in reference to Rikki, Rikki and Dusty. Everyone stopped speaking to Dusty because Rikki killed himself. If you’re sitting with Dusty, you’re not on Rikki’s side. Nothing to do with Niall Barry or any of them.”
PG: “There were sides. One side being the Hillsiders and the other side being Niall Barry and his group. You were saying she had chosen the opposing side from me and Niall.”
SZ: “No, totally wrong. The whole of Huyton was with rikki. Everyone had a cob on because Rikki had killed himself.”
PG: “Liv attempted to soothe this situation saying ‘his mum’s away’, a reference to Tom, and then ‘this is a joke’. Do you agree that these messages by you were intended to frighten and intimidate Liv?”
SZ: “Yeah I was angry yeah. I’m embarrassed of them.”
PG: “I asked whether your intention was to frighten and intimidate Liv.”
SZ: “Yes.”

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  • #369
14:46JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Call to Joseph Peers​

Mr Greaney turns to August 20.
PG: “It’s 9.13pm on the 20th. We see you arriving on Pilch Lane in your Mercedes.”
Zeisz: “We do yeah”
PG: “We see you getting some food then going into the flat. You had been invited there by Joseph Peers?”
SZ: “That’s right.”
PG: “Your understanding was that he would be watching the boxing with you and the others at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “That’s right yeah.”
PG: “You had no understanding that he had a plan to go and watch the boxing with his father?”
SZ: “I didn’t.”
PG: “We know in due course Joseph Peers and James Witham leave. There is the two of them leaving at 10.09pm. You said on February 13, in the prepared statement you gave, you give an account of the events in that flat. You say ‘one of the others at the flat owed me money which I'd been chasing for over two weeks’. Was that a reference to Niall Barry?”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
PG: “We know in the period after the killing, Niall Barry had access to substantial sums. Did you know he had access to that money?”
SZ: “Erm. i suppose so yeah.”
PG: “Because the question is, if he had access to that money and owed you more than £20,000 why wasn’t he paying you?”
SZ: “I should think it was getting paid yeah.”
Mr Greaney reads from the defence statement: “He, Niall Barry, told me there was cannabis at the flat he intended to sell the following morning. I agreed to stay over and go with him the next day. Two of the others had been drinking. Witham became rowdy and was asked to leave. Joe also left and said he was going home”
PG: “That was a complete surprise to you that he was going home?”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
Mr Greaney reads: “As soon as Joe left I called him to get some cigarettes. I called him about two or three times but he didn’t answer.”
PG: “You were saying as soon as he left ‘I called him and asked him to get some cigarettes’.
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “You said something similar in your defence statement and something similar in your evidence last wednesday. There are a couple of problems here. The first attempt that you make to call Joseph Peers is at 23.06.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “This is the first issue the jury may welcome your help with. You have maintained you telephoned Joseph Peers as soon as he had left the flat, which was at 10.09. Yet in fact it appears that it was not for nearly an hour. Could you explain?”
SZ: “I said this before I’d seen the evidence. I was an hour off. This is before I seen any evidence, before I was charged, I said that. I thought it was straight away, but obviously it’s just under an hour later.”
PG: “Your explanation is although you had thought the call was made immediately, you now accept you didn’t make that call for an hour?”
SZ: “I accept that yeah.”
PG: “The second problem is this. We can see 267 Pilch Lane and there’s the hairdressers just to the right, but then next door to Thatcheris the shop, Go Local. That shop was open that night until 1am. That shop sold cigarettes and alcohol. If when Peers left at 10.09 you were keen on having cigarettes, why not just walk down the stairs, a couple of seconds to your left, and buy them from the Go Local?”
SZ: “We already had cigarettes. It’s not like we had no ciggies. We asked Joe to come back and on the way past grab a pack. Niall said it was shut, it shuts at 11.”
PG: “The explanation for this problem is you were given inaccurate information about the closing time?”
SZ: “Yeah. it’s not like we were desperate. We were staying up until 3, so we would have needed more ciggies. If he says it’s shut, I’ll believe him. He’s living there.”
PG: “Can I suggest an alternative that I suggest is correct. The reason why you were an hour out with your call to Peers, the reason why you didn’t pop to the Go Local is because that call you made at 11.06 was for a completely different reason?”
SZ: “It wasn’t, it was a couple of minutes before the fight was about to start. Are you watching it here or what?”

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  • #370
14:51JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'I had no reason to, they were my friends'​

Mr Greaney continues: “Ian Fitzgibbon was there in that flat with you… You were able to see each other, what the other was doing, saying. And able to speak to each other?”
Zeisz says: “Yes.”
PG: “What was happening over this period of time? At 11.06, Ian Fitzgibbon makes an attempt to call James Witham and doesn’t get through. Then you make an attempt to call Joseph Peers. Again, you didn’t get through.”
SZ: “Yes.”
PG: “A second after that, Ian Fitzgibbon attempts to call Joseph Peers. He doesn’t get through. Then 19 seconds later, he makes a call to James Witham. Were you aware, as the two of you sat near to each other, you were both trying to get in contact with the same people?”
SZ: “We were trying to ring them to see if they were coming and watching the boxing. The fight was starting in three minutes. I knew they were together, they went out together didn’t they.”
PG: “At 23.09 Ian Fitzgibbon sends a message to James Witham. You call Joseph Peers. What we know is that James Witham was on his way to carry out a shooting. We know that now?”
SZ: “We do yeah.”
PG: “The crown’s case is Joseph Peers was part of that hit team. Why were you and Ian Fitzgibbon keen on speaking to those men at that time?”
SZ: “We just wanted them to come back and watch the boxing. I didn’t know he’d been asked to leave and go get his drugs elsewhere. Joe got off. I’m sitting there thinking why’s he done that.”
PG “The reality is you and Ian Fitzgibbon were seeking an update about how the plan to attack 40 Leinster Road was progressing?”
SZ: “No that’s wrong. I had no reason to, they were my friends.”

14:56JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Updates on shooting'​

Mr Greaney continues: “At 23.10, you made contact with the phone of Joseph Peers and there was a call lasting 23 seconds. At this stage, just a short time before the attack on the car of Ashley Dale, do you accept you actually spoke to Joseph Peers?”
Zeisz replies: “I did yeah.”
PG: “What do you say you were talking about if not the plan to attack 40 Leinster Road?”
SZ: “To come back and watch the boxing. He said I’ll be round in a minute, do you want anything? I said yeah, bring some ciggies.”
PG: “You’d gone there expecting him to watch the fight with you. He had then left before the fight started. You spoke to him at 10 past 11 and he said he was coming back around. You thought he was coming pretty much straight back around?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “If he was at home, he was about five minutes from the flat.”
SZ: “About a five minute walk yeah.”
PG: “Did he say anything about his intention to watch the fight with his dad?”
SZ: “No he said he was coming round to watch the fight.”
PG: “Mr Peers has given his evidence, and you’ve given your evidence now about that call. You say he said to you he was coming back around. Now Ashley was shot and killed at about 12.30 in the morning. About 15 minutes, a bit more, you were again attempting to contact Joseph Peers. You made two attempts to call Joseph Peers didn't you?”
SZ: “I did yeah. To see where he was and why hasn’t he come back round. I think Ian had just left. He said do you want a lift? [Barry] said stay stay, we’ll get that dough in the morning. I wish I’d got off.”
PG: “What were you asking of Joseph Peers in these calls at quarter to 1?”
SZ: “They didn’t go through did they?”
PG: “What did you intend to ask him?”
SZ: “To come back round, why haven’t you come back round.”
PG: “He still hasn’t arrived.”
SZ: “We’ve watched the boxing but the UFC was on. Ian had got off, so we phoned Joe. the main event wasn't until 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.”
PG: “It wasn’t to check if the killing had been carried out?”
SZ: “100 per cent no. I wasn’t aware of anything.”
PG: “Nearly 15 minutes later, Joseph Peers actually calls you back. There’s a call lasting 19 seconds. Do you agree there was a conversation at that stage?”
SZ: “There was yeah.”
PG: “Is it your explanation that he called you to say if you’re still at the flat I’ll come back
SZ:“That was it. He said I'll be round now.”
PG: “Did he say anything about Witham being with him?”
SZ: “No.”
PG : “Mr Zeisz, what I suggest to you is that call by Peers to you was to update you about what had happened at 40 Leinster Road?”
SZ: “100 per cent no.

15:03KEY EVENT

"Your violent hatred and vanity drove what happened that night"​

Mr Greaney says: “It’s only five minutes from his mother’s house. At this stage, presumably, you expected him to arrive shortly after 1 o'clock.”
Zeisz replies: “I did yeah.”
PG: “By 1.18, he obviously hasn’t arrived back at the flat?”
SZ: “He hasn’t”
PG: “You called him yet again.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Why?”
SZ: “To see where he is. I just said you coming round, it’s 20 minutes on, where are you?”
PG: “The reason you wanted to know where he was because you, Ian Fitzgibbon and Niall Barry wanted an update about how the plot to attack had gone didn't you?”
SZ: “No chance.”
PG: “We went over the return of Witham and Peers and the stage at which Witham had made his confession. In simple terms, you were surprised Witham came back with Peers?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Because he had been asked to leave.”
SZ: “When I was on the phone to him he didn’t say he was with Witham”
PG: “Witham then confessed at a time you can’t help us with?”
SZ: “I couldn’t tell you the time no.”
PG: “All of what you have said about that is lies. You knew what Witham and Peers were up to, and you were in on it.”
SZ: “No I wasn't in on it. They weren’t lies. You weren’t there, so you wouldn’t know.”
PG: “The next day, were you involved in moving the car to St Helens?”
SZ: “No, never been in that car in my life.”
PG: “Over the period moved, we can see Joseph Peer’s phone was inactive. We can see the phone of Ian Fitzgibbon was over that period inactive.”
SZ: “I was with Ian Fitzgibbon at the time.”
PG: “Your phone was also inactive.”
SZ: “It was yeah.”
PG: “If you weren't involved in the movement of the vehicle, why? Why was your phone inactive?”
SZ: “I’m not sure. It might have been off. There’s a picture of me car outside my mum’s, with Niall Barry and Ian Fitzgibbon as passengers.”
PG: “Does it remain your position you were at your mother’s home having your Sunday lunch?”
SZ: “I was there from about 3 o'clock to about 4 o'clock.”
PG: “You left your friends outside in the car.
SZ: “Yeah it happens all the time. I wouldn’t bring people into my mum’s they don’t like people in the house.”
PG: “I’m now at the end of my questions. Let me put the prosecution case to you fair and square. Your violent hatred and vanity drove what happened that night. You encouraged an attack on Leinster Road, intending that Lee Harrison be killed and no one be left behind. You fully supported the use of a machine gun to that end.”
SZ: “Not a chance. Lee and Ashley were my friends. I never fell out with Lee, never argued with him.”
That concludes Mr Greaney’s cross-examination.
Mr Davies has no questions in reexamination.
The court will now take a short break, resuming at 3.30pm.

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  • #371
15:46JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Sean Zeisz's cousin gives evidence​

Adam Davies, KC, defending Zeisz, calls the next witness, Ellie May Zeisz-Clarke.
She is sworn in, and confirms her name, and her age as 26.
AD: “How long have you known Sean Zeisz?”
EZ: “All my life, he’s my cousin.”
AD: “What’s the relation?”
EZ: “My mum and his dad are brother and sister.”
AD: “How close are you?”
EZ: “Really close.”
AD: “Could you tell us your occupation?”
EZ: “I’m a dental nurse. I actually work in Leeds.”
AD: “How long have you been doing that?”
EZ: “I’ve been in Leeds about six months, but I’ve been with the company about four years.”
AD: “You have no previous convictions?”
EZ: “No.”
AD: “I want to ask you about Glastonbury last year. Did you go to Glastonbury?”
EZ: “I did yeah.”
AD: “Who did you go with?”
EZ: “My friend Taylor.”
AD: “Did you go with other people?”
EZ: “There was a group of us yeah.”
AD: “Did you see Sean at Glastonbury?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Were you aware he was going?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “What days did you go?”
EZ: “Friday to Monday.”
AD: “Did you see Sean while you were there?”
EZ: “Yeah. Saturday and Sunday.”
AD: “Were you aware of any incident Sean had while he was at Glastonbury?”
EZ: “I was yeah.”
AD: “Who told you?”
EZ: “Sean.”
Ms Zeisz-Clarke says she saw her cousin on the Sunday.
EZ: “It was the Sunday afternoon. We were just all at a tent seeing the same DJ. I saw he had a scratch on his nose. He told me he had a bit of trouble the night before. He got hit. It was someone called Wally, over his mate owing him money.”
AD: “Was he with Liv all the time he was with you?”
EZ: “No.”
AD: “Was there a point where you saw him on his own?”
EZ: “On Sunday we went to a different tent. I told Sean to come with us. Liv wasn’t with us then.”
AD: “He told you what it was about?”
EZ: “Over a friend owing him money.”
AD: “You didn’t ask him anything further about it?”
She agrees
AD: “You noticed a scratch on his nose, anything else?”
EZ: “No.”
AD: “Did he complain of any other injuries?”
EZ: “No.”
AD: “I think you gave us a photograph of you and Sean. That’s a copy there, did that come from your telephone?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Is that you on the left?”
EZ: “It is yeah.”
AD: “Who’s that on the right?”
EZ: “Sean.”
AD: “When was that taken?”
EZ: “Sunday night,”
AD: “After Sean had been hit?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Did you see Liv at all during the festival?”
EZ: “I seen her the Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon.”
AD: “Why was Sean not with her on the Sunday?”
EZ: “He said he’d just left her where we was before because she was doing his head in.”
Mr Davies has no further questions.

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  • #372
15:51JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'They'd always bicker'​

Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting, rises to cross examine Ms Zeisz-Clarke.
PG: “You did not see yourself any assault of Sean your cousin?”
EZ: “No.”
PG: “From your own direct knowledge you can’t help us with who did or did not assault him?”
EZ: “Just what Sean has told me.”
PG: “You can’t say ‘I saw it and it was him’?”
EZ: “I can’t say for certain no.”
PG: “When you spoke to Sean about it, he told you someone called Wally had done the assault. What Wally a name you knew?”
EZ: “No, never heard of him before. He said his friend owed him money. I didn’t ask him anything else.”
PG: “And he didn’t volunteer anything else about it?”
EZ: “No.”
PG: “On Sunday afternoon you met up with Sean. Was that by arrangement or did you bump into each other?”
EZ: “I think it was arrangement, I can’t entirely remember.”
PG: “When you saw him, was he with Liv?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Then there came a time when he wasn’t with Liv. He went with you and she went with someone else?”
EZ: “She stayed where we was.”
PG: “Do you know Lee Harrison?”
EZ: “Briefly.”
PG: “And did you know Ashley Dale?”
EZ: “Yeah.”
PG: “Did you either see or did Sean tell you Liv would be with them?”
EZ: “I seen Lee and Ashley in the same tent where we was.”
PG: “By the sunday, it’s clear to you that Sean and Liv had been arguing.”
EZ: “It wasn’t clear, no.”
PG: “She was doing his head in.”
EZ: “That’s nothing out of the ordinary for Sean and Liv, they’d always bicker.”
PG: “He left Liv with Ashley and Lee?”
EZ: “I don’t know for certain that’s who he left her with.”
That concludes Mr Greaney’s questions, and Ms Zeisz-Clarke is excused.

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  • #373
15:57KEY EVENT

Sean Zeisz's mum gives evidence​

Mr Davies now calls Angela Jones to give evidence.
She confirms she works as a domestic in Broad Green Hospital and has no previous convictions.
Mr Davies asks: “You are the mother of Sean Zeisz?”
Ms Jones says: “Yes.”
AD: “He’s your youngest son?”
AJ: “Yes.”
AD: “You had two other children. How old is your eldest?”
AJ: “41.”
AD: “And your middle son?”
AJ “31.”
AD: “And Sean is?”
AJ: “28.”
AD: “I’d like to take you back to Summer 2022. Where was Sean living at the time?”
AJ: “Longreach road.”
AD: “Whose property is that?”
AJ: “Me and his dad’s”
AD: “Was there a time where he lived somewhere else?”
AJ: “He went to live in a flat in Aigburth with Olivia.”
AD: “I want to ask you about Sunday August 21. Can you tell me what happened that day?”
AJ: “I’d sent Sean a message in the morning to see if he wanted some Sunday dinner. I was doing lamb and he loved lamb.”
AD: “Where had you been that day?”
AJ: “I’d been to work.”
AD: “What time did you finish?”
AJ: “1 o'clock”
AD: “What time was lunch?”
AJ: “We regularly have it about half 3, 4 o'clock.”
AD: “Who came for dinner?”
AJ: “Sean. I don’t know about his dad, he’d gone out.”
AD: “Do you know how long Sean was at your address?”
AJ: “Maybe an hour, hour and a half.”
AD: “Can I ask how you remember the events?”
AJ: “We were talking about our nephew’s wedding the following saturday. The 27th.”
AD: “Were you all going?”
AJ: “Yes.”
AD “Where was the wedding?”
AJ: “In Ibiza.”
AD: “Had flights been booked?”
AJ: “Yes.”
AD: “Including Sean?”
AJ: “Including Sean.”
AD: “Can you remember any specific conversation about it?”
AJ: “Sean was gonna be an usher at the wedding. He wasn’t overly keen on the shoes. I persuaded him, you’ll be fine. Everyone else will be wearing them.”
AD: “Was there anything unusual about that Sunday?”
AJ: “Not that I recall.”
AD: “How often would Sean come for lunch on a Sunday?”
AJ: “A lot. He was always welcome.”
That concludes Mr Davies’ questions.

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  • #374
16:14JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Did you know where Sean got his money?'​

Mr Greaney rises to cross examine Ms Jones.
PG: “Did Sean have a job in summer last year?”
AJ: “Not that I recall?”
PG: “We know he had a Mercedes?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “He obviously liked his clothes?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “He told us about some very expensive flip flops he had. All of those things cost money don’t they. In summer last year, where did your son tell you he was getting his money from?”
AJ: “I didn’t ask him.”
PG: “He had no job, no obvious source of income yet he had all this stuff. Did you not say; Sean how are you funding this?”
AJ: “He wouldn’t have told me anyway, so I never asked.”
PG: “Had you ever met Olivia?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “Sean had been going out with her for a number of years? They’d lived together?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “In summer last year, what did you understand the state of their relationship to be?”
AJ: “It was on and off. It was not the way it was. It was on a slippery slope should I say.”
PG: “Had you told you about any particular problems
AJ “No.”
PG: “The wedding of, was it your nephew?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “Was that an important event in your family?”
AJ: “Yes because we’d been waiting since pre covid to go.”
PG: “Am I right there will have been more than one occasion on which that trip was discussed?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “Sometimes on other days?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “When was it that you were first asked by Sean or anyone else to think back to August 21. When did someone first say help us with what you can remember?”
AJ: “I can’t recall.”
PG: “Was it quite recently?”
AJ: “I can’t recall.”
PG: “I’m going to ask you to try to recall. How long ago was it you were asked to think back to August last year?”
AJ: “Maybe the February.”
PG: “About six months after these events?”
AJ: “Maybe yeah.”
PG: “You were thinking back six months to a sunday in circumstances in which Sean often came to your house on a sunday, in which your nephew’s wedding had been discussed a number of times?”
AJ: “Yes.”
PG: “Let’s accept you have accurately recalled Sunday, August 21. How did Sean seem to be during that afternoon?”
AR: “He was a lot quieter, but we were discussing about these shoes. He didn’t want to wear the shoes, that’s why I thought he was quieter. I was talking him into it.”
PG: “Earlier that day a young woman, Ashley Dale, had been shot dead in her own home. That afternoon, Sean was talking about the shoes he was going to be wearing at the wedding?”
AR: “Yes.”
PG: “Do you know Iian Fitzgibbon?”
AR: “Yes.”
PG: “And do you know Niall Barry?”
AR: “From the area, yes.”
PG: “When was the first time after August 21 you recall seeing either of those two?”
AR: “I don’t.”
Mr Greaney has no further questions for the witness.
Mr Davies will now ask questions in reexamination.
AD: “You were asked about Niall Barry and Ian Fitzgibbon. Did Sean ever bring them round for lunch?”
AJ: “No. we didn’t have his friends in.”
AD: “You wouldn’t have the friends over.”
AJ: “No.”
There are no further questions for the witness.
Mr Davies says: “My lord, that is the case for Sean Zeisz.”
Justice Goose tells the jury: “We will resume again tomorrow at half past 10.”
Thanks for following our live updates. We will return with further coverage tomorrow.

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  • #375
If anyone found the verbatim transcript of Ashley's voice notes difficult to read (I certainly did, 'Like,' 'do you know know what i mean?' etc!) I've attempted to make some of it more readable below! Might do the rest later on but it's hometime soon!

That was all over because Wally and [the Hillsiders] don’t like Branch. But even after that happened in Glasto, Lee was with Liv and Zest after it, and that wasn’t even anything to do with Lee. Obviously, Lee hates Branch, but just tries his best to stay out of it all. He can’t be arsed with [the trouble].

The thing with Lee is, we’ve had to speak about it all this week properly. Because I’ve had to say to him “you need to just be honest about everything, you need to tell me everything. Because I don’t normally want to know [you have] got to prepare me for the worst, I need to know what could happen.” I said “don’t sugar coat this situation with Branch to me” because he needed to be honest with me. But I know that Lee doesn’t want this. Lee said to me “if Branch comes to me and said let’s quash it, I would quash it. I don’t want (trouble) with him. I don’t want all this to be happening with him.”

He said “he’s not worth this, he’s not worth me ending up in jail or worse. He’s not worth it. I do not want this to be happening, this ‘murder.’”

Lee’s always spoke to Zest, even though he knew he was mates with Branch. So after that happened in Glasto, Lee lost everyone.

He stayed with Liv because Liv was in hysterics crying on the floor. He came and got me, because I just kept leaving Lee in Glasto because he was just following everyone, he was doing my head in. So, I was just doing me own thing. And he’s come and got me from by the bar in the gas tower. And said “you need to come and sort Liv out.” And I didn’t even know what had happened. Someone said to me, (I think it was Beth and Kayla) “I’m sure Liv’s fella has just been smacked there you know.” And I said “f*** off, really?” And I said “I didn’t see that, I didn’t think that he had” And then Lee’s ran over and said “f****** come over here, Liv’s crying.” So, I’ve went over, and then five minutes later Zest popped up with a fire extinguisher in his arms, Ian’s popped up from nowhere and Lee was with them. So, that wasn’t even anything to do with Lee. Lee said to Wally before it happened “nah lad don’t, he’s with his bird and that, just leave it, don’t be smacking him here, just wait until your home.” And then Wally said “Oh, do you reckon?” but still ending up smacking him anyway. Lee tried to keep the peace.

Dusty just got himself involved for no reason. Dusty and Zest, seen each other in Glasto after it happened and nothing happened. And then Liv got seen walking with Dusty the next day. That’s why Zest legged her. So, at this point, if Liv hadn’t legged Sean and went and seen Dusty, this murder wouldn’t have happened. It might of if they [had] seen each other out, or if Dusty [had] seen Zest out. But the likelihood is he wouldn’t probably see Zest out because you don’t really see him out.

Liv going and seeing Dusty, has brought all this on. That is why Dusty’s went over and done that. Not over Liv, [but] because he’s hating on Zest. He has done it because of what’s all been brought on that week. I’m not saying it’s her fault and it’s over her. But if she hadn’t seen Dusty, all that $h!t wouldn’t have happened.

The Branch situation with Lee is a totally different story. The fact that Liv has went and seen Dusty, has aggravated the Branch situation now. Because she was with Zest, and she’s my mate and speaks to Lee and Lee speaks to Zest. So that kept the peace a little bit with the Branch situation and that’s why nothing really happened. And now Liv’s not with Zest, [his attitude is] f*** her and f*** anything that she cared about. And now because Lee is mates with Dusty, Zest’s thinking well f*** Lee. So now Branch is on his high horse and now Lee’s got dragged back into it. But if she wouldn’t have split up with Zest, and went and seen Dusty, I don’t reckon any of this would have happened. And I don’t reckon Lee would have had that further ‘murder’ with Branch on the phone either the other day.

But Branch wouldn’t have been saying he was coming down the if Liv hadn’t done this, because that’s just aggravated everything. She even said that to me herself, the night when it all happened, she said this is all my fault because I was the peace maker basically, now i’m dragging you and Lee into it all.
 
  • #376
10:38KEY EVENT

Niall Barry to give evidence​

Mr Justice Goose enters court.
The defence case for Niall Barry will begin.
Stan Reiz, KC, reprsenting Barry, confirms his client will give evidence. Barry, wearing a dark grey jumper over a white shirt and tie and dark trousers, is escorted to the witness box.
The jury are called into court.

10:44JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Barry confirms nickname​

Barry is sworn in on the bible, and gives his full name as Niall Andrew Barry.
Mr Reiz asks him to confirm he sometimes goes by the surname ‘Warner’.
NB: “It’s me father’s name.”
He says he has a passport in this name, and also goes by the nickname “Branch”.
Barry says he has had this nickname “a couple of years”.
Mr Reiz asks about where he was born.
NB: “I grew up by Croxteth Park. I lived with me nan and granddad.I lived in West Derby.”
SR: “Who did you live with as a child?”
NB: “Me mother.”
SR: “Did that change?”
NB: “I lived with me nan and granddad for a couple of years. Childwall.”
SR: “Is it right they passed away when you were young?”
NB: “They did yes."
Barry says he began a relationship with Dominique Chapman when he was 16 and has five-year-old child with her.
They had separated by August 2022 and at that point he was seeing Lucy Worley.
SR: “At what age did you leave school?”
NB: “I think I was around 14, 15.”
SR: “Were you able to find work?”
NB: “I did a few bits and bobs, labouring work. I was interested in cars. I started working part time in a garage. I couldn’t do engines and stuff like that, I was doing basic stuff like servicing cars.”
SR: “How is your knowledge on cars?”
NB: “It’s ok, not the best.”
SR: “After you left the garage did you continue having an interest in cars?”
NB: “Yeah.”
SR: “Apart from that, how did you make your money in your early 20s?”
NB: “Most of the time I’d just buy and sell whatever I could to be honest. Just cars, motorbikes. Anything I could make a profit on really.”
SR: “How long had you been buying and selling cars?”
NB: “The last five, six years.”
SR: “Did you have your own business?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “How would you buy and sell cars and make money off it?”
NB: “I can’t remember what the website is called, but I’d buy cars that were crashed and damaged and fix them up.”
SR: “Is that a type of trade you practised over that period?”
NB: “I didn’t put all me concentration into it. If there was something I could see a profit in it yeah. I’d do it.”
SR: “Is that something you’ve done on occasions in the past?”
NB: “I’ve done it on loads of occasions yeah.”

10:49KEY EVENT

Barry 'sold drugs in kilos to anyone who wanted them on EncroChat'​

Mr Reiz asks: “In 2020 were you making money in any other way?”
Barry replies: “Yes... I was selling drugs.”
SR: “What kind of drugs?”
NB: “Anything to be honest. Cocaine, heroin, cannabis, amphetamines.”
SR: “In what quantities were you selling drugs in 2020?”
NB: “In kilos.”
SR: “Who were you selling drugs to? What type of person?”
NB: “Anyone who wanted them.”
SR: “How were you able to source the product you were selling on.”
NB: “Through EncroChat.”
SR: “The jury have heard a little bit of evidence about EncroChat in the agreed facts. What was your understanding of EncroChat?”
NB: “It was just a platform. It was supposed to be unbreakable. You could speak openly about drugs and other things and the police couldn’t get into your phone basically. That was what they put across to make you buy one of these phones.”
SR: “Is that why you had an EncroChat device?”
NB: “Yeah.”
SR: “And you acquired it for what primary purpose?”
NB: “To get cheaper drugs. It’s hard to say, most people wouldn’t speak on a normal pay as you go phone. On EncroChat you could speak to the main person and get a cheaper price than on the street.”
SR: “Users of EncroChat had handles. Did you have a handle?”
NB: “Yes I did yeah. BetterTrunk, it was called.”
SR: “You communicated with others using EncroChat, were they people you knew. People you had met, people you didn’t know or a mix?”
NB: “A mixture of people.”
SR: “How did you initiate those conversations?”
NB: “You just get put on to people. I could text someone saying my mate wants such and such.”
SR: “Do you remember when you acquired your EncroChat phone?”
NB: “No, I couldn't tell you.”

11:02KEY EVENT

Barry: 'I chatted about guns on EncroChat because I was young and trying to act hard'​

Mr Reiz says EncroChat phones cost around £1,200 to £1,500 for six months.
SR: “Is that how much you paid for yours?”
Barry says: “Around that yeah.”
Mr Reiz says the authorities deployed a capture tool to download all the messages on the EncroChat servers. He asks when Barry became aware of the EncroChat hack.
NB: “I think it was June, some time in June?”
SR: “I don’t think this is controversial. It was around June 12, 2020 there was an announcement that the hack had been detected. What did you do with your device?”
NB: “I threw it away.”
SZ: “What about the contacts you had?”
NB: “The only ones I ended up saving were the ones I knew. Everyone else, I lost.”
Mr Reiz refers to an exchange between BetterTrunk and another handle, FrostySocks, on April 10, 2020.
He reads: “Get that .38 off Gibbs?”
SR: “By 38 what did you mean?”
NB: “A gun.”
SR: “Who was Gibbs?”
NB: “Gibbo his name is, he’s just a drug user..”
Mr Reiz reads: “We’ll get that”. SR: “What did you mean?”
NB: “Just we’ll get that.”
Mr Reiz reads: “My other things are quite far, dodgy on the road”
SR: “What were you referring to?”
NB: “I was just talking nonsense basically. I was thinking I was hard. I was young, I was only 22. I was just thinking I was hard at the time. I meant other guns.”
SR: “Did you have other guns?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Why did you say you had other guns?”
NB: “I was just thinking I was hard. I shouldn’t have said it. Just erm, just fantasising about it. Just going on. I shouldn’t have said it.”
SR: “Dodgy on the road, what did you mean?”
NB: “I don’t know, there must have been police around.”
SR: “The time period is April 2020. We entered lockdown in March 2020. Do you remember what you did when we were in lockdown?”
NB: “I stayed in the house.”
SR: “Did that affect your drug dealing business?”
NB: “It did No-one was allowed on the road so I couldn’t get my drugs where they needed to go.”
Mr Reiz reads: “Get that and skorp”.
SR: “What did you mean?”
NB: “A gun. A Skorpion. I just knew what it was called.”
SR: “Did you have access to a Skorpion in April 2020.”
NB: “Yes I did, yeah. I just knew where one was.”
SR: “Did you own one?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “You knew where one was?”
NB: “I just knew there was one in a house by ours that a drug dealer was minding.”
SR: “This exchange starts with you saying get that 38 off gibbs. Did that happen?”
NB: “It didn’t happen no.”
SR: “Did you access that Skorpion?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Did anything occur as a result of this exchange?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “On April 19 you exchanged messages with another EncroChat user. 9.40 in the morning, a message is sent to your phone by BeigeSalad with a list of firearms. Did you ask for that list to be sent to you?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Did you know why it was being sent to you?”
NB: “He was trying to sell the guns.”
SR: “Did you know why he was trying to sell guns to you?”
NB: “I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you, no”
SR: “Had you expressed an interest in getting a firearm at that time?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Was this the only message, guns being offered for sale, being sent to you?”
NB: “No. I couldn’t put a time or date on it but EncroChat was mad. There were a lot of people who could get anything. I was offered drugs every day by different people, different prices.”
SR: “Why did you ask for prices?”
NB: “Just enquiring, seeing how much they were.”
SR: “You say ‘skorp and tech and grand power will have defo’. Were you planning on buying those firearms?”
NB: “I was yeah. I was just young and stupid. He said these are gone now, I said no worries.”
SR: “You said you were going to by these firearms. What were you planning on doing with them?”
NB: “Just keeping hold of them.”
SR: “For what purpose?”
NB: “I don’t know, just to buy them. I could have been selling them on. I don’t know. I was possibly going to sell them on. I know it sounds terrible but I’m telling the truth. I was planning on selling them on and making a profit.”
SR: “Did you know someone interested in buying firearms at that time?”
NB: “Yeah, I did yeah.”
SR: “And that person or people, were they through EncroChat?”
NB: “It would have been through EncroChat. He didn’t get me back with no prices, he messaged back and said they had all gone. It just got left there.”
SR: “After that message there were no further messages between BetterTrunk and BeigeSalad between these firearms?”
NB: “Yes.”
SR: “Did you ever purchase any of those firearms?”
NB: “No none of them, they said that they were gone.”
SR: “You never acquired any of those firearms?”
NB: “No none.”

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  • #377
11:10JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Max wants a sprayer'​

Mr Reiz refers to EncroChat messages on June 3 and 4 2020, between the handle ‘ButterflySea’ and Barry’s ‘BetterTrunk’.
Mr Reiz reads: “Max wants to buy a strap can you sort?”
SR: “You reply at 12.09 the following day saying ‘yo yo, yeah what’s he after?’. ButterflySea says ‘Max wants a sprayer’.”
He asks Barry what a sprayer is.
NB: “An automatic weapon.”
SR: “What did you think ButterflySea was asking of you?”
NB: “Can I get hold of an automatic weapon, someone wanted to buy one.”
SR: “Was ButterflySea shopping for themselves?”
NB: “No no he said someone called Max.”
SR: “Do you know who Max is?”
NB: “No I don’t know him no.”
SR: “Did you know why ButterflySea was trying to get a gun for Max?”
NB: “No I didn’t know, no.”
SR: “At 12.11, you message saying ‘yeah man i’ll get on it for him be able to sort’. Was that true?”
NB: “No. I was seeing if I could but i never, I couldn’t get him one so I didn’t.”
SR: “At 12.12 ButterflySea says ‘yeah man he wants a sprayer he wanted to see ya last night’. Again do you know who this was?”
NB: “Erm, no. he must have meant whoever he was speaking to.”
SR: “You reply ‘yeah man was f*****lad, i’ll come see him today’. Again, do you know who was being referred to?”
NB: “No it must have just been his friend.”
SR: “Had you ever met his friend?”
NB: “No I never met him no.”
SR: “Final message: ‘yeah man sweet no worries’. There are no further messages recovered between Mr Barry and ButterflySea. did this result in the exchange of a firearm?”
NB: “No, no transaction ever took place.”
SR: “Did you make efforts to try and source the firearm?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Why not?”
NB: “I just didn’t. I don’t know, I just didn’t.”
Mr Reiz reads from the agreed facts: “On June 8 this year, Niall Barry was convicted of conspiracy to sell or transfer a prohibited weapon, namely an automatic weapon”
Barry says: “I was convicted of it yeah. I was young and stupid.”
SR: “You were tried and convicted in June this year. When were you arrested for these matters?”
NB: “EncroChat? I think it was September 14, 2022.”
SR: “After your arrest in connection with this case, the alleged murder of Ashley Dale?”
NB: “Yes.”
SR: “At the same time, were you also convicted of drugs supply offences?”
NB: “Yeah.”
SR: “Did you commit those using EncroChat as well?”
NB: “Yes I did yeah.”
SR: “Did you know that you were wanted for these EncroChat offences during the period of 2020 to September 2022.”
NB: “Erm no I didn’t no. Not specifically for EncroChat,I was staying in town in 2021, the door of the apartment went in on December 23 on my birthday.”
SR: “Were you aware you were wanted for anything in relation to EncroChat?”
NB: “No.”
Mr Reiz reads from the agreed facts: “No firearm has ever been recovered from Niall Barry.”.
SR: “Is that correct?”
NB: “That’s correct yeah.”

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  • #378
11:19JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

Running drugs into North Wales​

Mr Reiz asks: “Where were you from June 2020 up until summer 2022?”
Barry replies: “I was mainly in Liverpool yeah.”
SR: “Did you spend time anywhere else?”
NB: “I went on holiday a few times yeah.”
SR: “We’ve heard voice notes from Ashley Dale speaking of Branch popping out of the woodwork.”
NB: “What it was was, I sort of hadn’t seen Ashley for a long time or her boyfriend or anyone. I stopped speaking to them. Well I stopped speaking to Lee not Ashley. With the death of our friend, Rikki, that’s how I’ve come back to being around.”
SR: “She seems to have suggested you weren’t around for a while.”
NB: “I was around in Liverpool. We just didn’t mix in the same group of people.”
Barry is asked about the mobile phone known as the Kyle Line.
Mr Reiz says: “Do you know what the Kyle Line was?”
Barry says: “I did. It was a phone used to sell drugs in North Wales.”
SR: “We can see, in July and August 2022, Niall Barry and James Witham have both had possession and use of the Kyle Line in order to facilitate the supply of crack cocaine and diamoprhine in North Wales.”
NB: “I agree with being around that phone yeah. I‘ve been around someone using the phone. I may have had possession of that phone once or twice but that wasn’t my phone, I didn’t profit off that phone. I was just doing a friend a favour. Just keeping hold of the phone while he must have went somewhere or something, I can't recall the exact thing.”
SR: “What would you do with the phone?”
NB: “I might answer it for a couple of hours while the person had gone somewhere or something along them lines.”
SR: “What type of calls would you receive?”
NB: “Just users ringing the phone.”
SR: “Wanting what?”
NB: “Smack, crack. I’d ring whoever was doing the running and get them to see the users.”
SR: “Did you know who was doing the running?”
NB: “I can’t recall no. I’d get told while I had the phone, ring them, they’re the runners. They’ll see the people, whoever.”
SR: “Cathy Doyle was a runner for the Kyle Line. Do you know who Cathy Doyle is?”
NB: “Yes I do, yeah. I’ve supplied her with cannabis in the past and I know she’s a user.”
SR: “What was her connection to the Kyle Line?”
NB: “She was a user and a runner.”
SR: “Was she one of the people you would ring when someone would make a request for drugs?”
NB: “Yes, yeah.”
SR: “Who else was associated with the Kyle Line?”
NB: “Erm, sorry what do you mean? People who are doing the running?”
SR: “On occasions James Witham also had possession and use of the Kyle Line. Do you know Mr Witham?”
NB: “Yes I do yeah.”
SR: “What was his connection to the Kyle Line?”
NB: “It was his phone. It was his round, that was his line.”
SR: “Do you know if he operated that line with others or on his own?”
NB: “From what I know, just by himself.”
SR: “Did you have any bus activities with Mr Witham during that period?”
NB: “Yes, yeah I did yeah. I’d go down to North Wales. I had my own people down there I was giving cocaine and cannabis to. We’d go down there together.”
SR: “Were you working with James Witham?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “You say you would go to North Wales, why did you go to North Wales?”
NB: “I’d either be going to drop drugs off or pick money up.”
SR: “Was that connected with the Kyle Line?”
NB: “No, no.”
SR: “What activities were these?”
NB: “I had a few people I used to see who I used to do kilos of cannabis to and cocaine to. The Kyle Line was street deals, this was different, this was kilos.”
He says the kyle Line usually dealt in £10 street deals.
SR: “Whose business was that, the larger quantities?”
NB: “That was mine?”
SR: “Was it yours alone?”
NB: “It was mine alone.”
SR: “Did James Witham have anything to do with that business?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “You mentioned North Wales, where did you business operate?”
NB: “Holywell, Rhyl, Bangor.”
SR: “Anywhere else or just in Wales?”
NB: “A few places.”

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  • #379
11:26JONATHAN HUMPHRIES

'Business relationships'​

Mr Reiz asks: “Joseph Peers, did you know Joseph Peers?”
Barry replies: “I did yeah. We grew up in the same area.”
SR: “How long have you known him for?”
NB: “I’d say roughly around 10 years, I’d say.”
SR: “Were you friends?”
NB: “Yeah, yeah. I’d always say hello when I seen him. It’s only over the last couple of years I’ve proper spoke to him and seen him.”
SR: “Would you describe Joseph Peers as a close friend?”
NB: “Yes I would yeah.”
SR: “How often did you see him in that month?”
NB: “Maybe I’d see him three four times a week, maybe the next week I wouldn’t see him.”
SR: “Did Mr Peers had any involvement in your business activities, selling drugs?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Had you ever met Kallum Radford?”
NB: “No I’ve never heard of him, seen him, met him.”
SR: “Sean Zeisz, you know Mr Zeisz?”
NB: “Yes I do yeah.”
SR: “How long have you known him?”
NB: “Roughly from when I was around 13.”
SR: “Were you friends?”
NB: “Yeah, good friends yeah.”
SR: “In August last year how frequently would you see him?”
NB: “Same again. Sometimes I’d see him loads of times and I might not see him for weeks, but I’d stay in contact by telephone.”
SR: “Did you also have a business relationship?”
NB: “I did yeah. Drug dealing.”
SR: “How did it work?”
NB: “It’s different. If I need a favour of him, I needed a couple of kilos of drugs, he’d pass me them. It would be the same for him if he needed them and couldn’t get them.”
SR: “You would buy and sell to each other?”
NB: “We would yeah, but we both had our own customers.”
SR: “Were you business partners?”
NB: “No we weren’t.”
SR: “Ian Fitzgibbon how long have you known him?”
NB: “Roughly around 10 years.”
SR: “Would you describe him as a good friend?”
NB: “I’d describe him as a good friend yeah. When we were around 15, 16, we used to go out.”
SR: “How often would you see him in August last year?”
NB: “Quite often.”
SR: “Was he involved in your drugs business in any way?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “James Witham, how long have you known him?”
NB: “I’ve probably known him for around 10 years, maybe a little less.”
SR: “What was the nature of your relationship?”
NB: “Just through drug dealing.”
SR: “You’ve mentioned Mr Witham’s connection to the Kyle Line, for how many years was your relationship with him involving drugs?”
NB: “I hadn’t seen him for a couple of years. I was friends with him before lockdown. I didn’t see him for a couple of years. Around January 2022, I started speaking to him again.”
SR: “What was the nature of your relationship when you did that.”
NB: “Just buying and selling drugs to each other.”
SR: “Did you consider him to be a friend?”
NB: “I did yeah. I wouldn't say I was very close to him. He was someone I would sell drugs to, someone who i possibly brought drugs off sometimes.”
SR: “Did you socialise with him?”
NB: “Yeah I did yeah.”

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  • #380
11:40KEY EVENT

Why Niall Barry stopped talking to Lee Harrison​

The court is shown pictures of Barry with his arm around Ashley’s boyfriend, Lee Harrison. Ashley is also present in one of the pictures.
Barry says they were taken: “Around 2018, I’d say.”
Mr Reiz: “When did you first meet Mr Harrison?”
NB: “When I was about 14.”
SR: “How did you know him?”
NB: “Just through social friends, I just seen him. His cousin used to live in the next street to me mum.”
SR: “Back then, were you friends?”
NB: “Yeah, very good friends, yeah.”
SR: “How often would you see each other?”
NB: “Every day.”
SR: “What would you do together?”
NB: “We’d sell drugs together.”
SR: “What kind of operation was that?”
NB: “Just selling cocaine and cannabis.”
SR: “Whose business was it?”
NB: “Both of ours.”
SR: “Was that selling drugs in kilos or in smaller quantities?”
NB: “Anything, whether it was an ounce or a kilo.”
SR: “Do you remember when that arrangement began?”
NB: “Don’t know. 2017, I’d say.”
SR: “The year before this photograph was taken. While that was operating what was your relationship like with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “Great, great.”
SR: “Did that change.”
NB: “It did yes. I think it was around 2019, I’d say. It might have been the end of 2018. Around that time. I went on holiday with two friends who don’t really know Lee. While I was away on holiday, drugs got robbed out of a house.”
SR: “Whose house was it?”
NB: “Just someone who was minding the drugs. I was on holiday.”
Barry says it was a house in Liverpool.
SR: “Where was Lee Harrison at the time?”
NB: “In Liverpool.”
SR: “The drugs got robbed?”
NB: “Yes
SR: “Did you find out who stole the drugs?”
NB: “I did yeah.”
SR: “Who did you understand had taken the drugs?”
NB: “Just people from Huyton.”
SR: “Whose drugs were they?”
NB: “They were mine.”
SR: “Do you remember what the value was?”
NB: “I think it cost me around 30 grand, around £30,000 yeah.”
SR: “The type of drug?”
NB: “It was a kilo of cocaine and two kilos of cannabis.”
SR: “You found out someone had taken your drugs whilst you were away. How did you feel about that?”
NB: “I was angry.”
SR: “What did you do?”
NB: “Come home, off me holiday. I ended up getting about 30 ounces of cocaine back out of the robbery.”
SR: “How did you manage to do that?”
NB: “I found out who had robbed the parcel. Someone who was close to the person got most of my stuff back for me.”
SR: “Was that someone you knew?”
NB: “That was someone I knew yeah.”
SR: “How was that person able to get the drugs back?”
NB: “He was related to the person who robbed the drugs.”
SR: “Was there any use of violence?”
NB: “No no no.”
SR: “Did you recover all of the drugs?”
NB: “I was down six ounces of cocaine. I didn’t get the cannabis back.”
SR: “As far as you were aware was he (Lee Harrison) involved in the theft of drugs?”
NB: “No no.”
SR: “What’s his connection to this?”
NB: “People he robbed the drugs lived by his mum’s. They were saying to him, if you carry on speaking to him, you live on here, your mum lives on here. Don’t keep speaking to him. I think he was put in a position.”
SR: “At some stage, you fell out with Lee Harrison?”
NB: “I did yes.”
SR: “What did he do in your eyes?”
NB: “He was hanging around with the people who had robbed me drugs. He didn’t rob me. He was just around the people who did.”
SR: “How did you feel about his associations?”
NB: “I was angry. I’d been working with him for about two years. If the shoe was on the other foot, I’d be with him. I didn’t think it was right. I was just pissed off with him to be honest.”
SR: “Did you speak to him about it?”
NB: “ Yeah.I was saying why are you still speaking to these people. He was just saying they live on me mum’s estate, I’m in a catch 22.”
SR: “Did you accept his explanation?”
NB: “I did but I didn’t think it was reasonable. I cut ties with him. I didn’t speak to him after that.”
SR: “You say you cut your ties with him, what did that mean?”
NB: “I stopped speaking to him, I washed my hands of anyone from around there.”
SR: “When was this roughly?”
NB: “Around the end of 2018.”
SR: “After you had that discussion with Lee Harrison, did you ever speak to him face to face again?”
NB: “No but I’d seen him plenty of times.”
SR: “Where did you see him?”
NB: “I’ve walked past him loads and loads, I’ve seen him in town, walked past him in Amsterdam, seen him in parties with Ashley, I’ve seen him in a few places.”
SR: “Did you ever approach him?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “Did he approach you?”
NB: “No.”
SR: “How did you feel about him?”
NB: “I didn’t like it. I weren’t happy but I’d rather just cut my ties with someone like that. They’re more trouble than they’re worth.”
SR: “By the summer of last year what were your thoughts on Lee Harrison?”
NB: “To be honest I forgot about him. I stopped thinking about him. He’s not someone I’d ever speak about.”
SR: “You mentioned Ashley, have you ever met Ashley Dale?”
NB: “Yes I have..I have yeah. I’ve just been around her loads of times in loads of parties. I’ve been to her house. This was around the time I was friends with Lee.”
SR: “Was Ashley in a relationship with Lee?
NB: “Yes.”
SR: “How would you describe your relationship with Ashley Dale?
NB: “Sound. I’d never ever not say hello to Ashley.”
SR: “Did you ever fall out with her?”
NB: “No, never ever ever.”

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens

The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
 
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