GUILTY UK - Brianna Ghey, 16, murdered in Culcheth Linear Park, Feb 2023 *2 teenagers charged*

[Alyce]

I wonder if she thought she'd have to have actually physically stabbed BG in order to be charged with her murder and if she got caught would have only faced some sort of lesser 'aiding and abetting' or 'soliciting' type charge. And if convicted would only be looking at a few years inside max, probably getting released before she's even required to be moved to adult prison.

And then it was only once she was arrested and received proper legal advice she has realised just how much trouble she is in.

I think that's possible. She thought she could have the enjoyment of watching someone be murdered without having to be responsible herself.

 

[Skigh]

I am hoping the jury will be sent out tomorrow afternoon. A couple of hours for Y's defence and time for the judge to do her summoning up.

 

[Mirabel091]

You cannot conclude with certainty that Girl X had that phone in her hand and sent that message. What an incredible piece of foresight it would be. I’ll just pause and send a message. Really? This couple who didn’t even plan their escape route. She has the presence of mind to come up with something like that.

I disagree with Richard Pratt on this point.
For someone Xs age, this is exactly what she would do - reach for her phone ( she lives on it, as do most of her generation ) and send a cover up message. It would be second nature to her.

But serious planning of what to do, post murder. No. She's not smart enough.

The message was sent at 3.06pm according to the court transcript. Mrs Vize's phone call was logged at 3.13pm (source BBC, below) and they didn't immediately realise what they were seeing. I do think it's a close call whether it was sent by Brianna just before the attack or X just after it, but I agree it's unlikely a modern teenager would need to pause much to compose it.

Brianna Ghey: Dog walker's 999 call about teenager played to jury

A dog walker who found Brianna Ghey told a 999 operator help needed to come "quickly", a court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

Yes I'm still not sure what to make of that. Obviously it has been insinuated that the wrong clothes were tested but was it conclusively proved? Or just the KC leaping on the fact she had two similar looking items to sow any doubt possible for the jury? I don't recall DH providing a response.

RP "Did the police get the wrong jacket? You can see where that speculative attempt ended up. That was the pyjama top. It’s a nice try, but it’s what you have to do when the truth is there is only one sensible explanation from the absence of blood from her clothing."

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ah, so Girl X's defence strongly suggesting this alleged "mix up" was indeed just speculation planted by Boy Y's team to try to account for the absence of any blood on Girl X.

Be interesting to see how much Boy Y's defence leans on this aspect tomorrow.

 

[Dotta]

RP "Did the police get the wrong jacket? You can see where that speculative attempt ended up. That was the pyjama top. It’s a nice try, but it’s what you have to do when the truth is there is only one sensible explanation from the absence of blood from her clothing."


Ah, so Girl X's defence strongly suggesting this alleged mix up was indeed just speculation planted by Boy Y's team, given the absence of any blood on Girl X (and Boy Y covered in it).

Be interesting to see how much Boy Y's defence leans on this aspect tomorrow.

My theory is that if these 2 had not met, nothing would have happened.
GX might have morbidly fantasized all she wanted - who knows, maybe one day she would become a horror stories writer.

Unfortunately, they met.

JMO

PS
I hope I didn't make mistakes in all these conditional sentences.
They are real pain for foreigners

 

[Legal]

My theory is that if these 2 had not met, nothing would have happened.
GX might have morbidly fantasized all she wanted - who knows, maybe one day she would become a horror stories writer.

Unfortunately, they met.

JMO

PS
I hope I didn't make mistakes in all these conditional sentences.
They are real pain for foreigners

As I am a former English teacher, I feel I can say that you formed 2 nearly perfect sentences in the third conditional!

(hope you don't mind me saying but the only error is "she would have become a writer" but otherwise it was flawless!)

(from one teacher to another )

 

[Dotta]

As I am a former English teacher, I feel I can say that you formed 2 nearly perfect sentences in the third conditional!

(hope you don't mind me saying but the only error is "she would have become a writer" but otherwise it was flawless!)

(from one teacher to another )

I knew it!!!!!!!
It sounded awkward hehe

 

[bobbymkii]

My theory is that if these 2 had not met, nothing would have happened.
GX might have morbidly fantasized all she wanted - who knows, maybe one day she would become a horror stories writer.

Unfortunately, they met.

JMO

They were clearly an extremely bad influence on each other. No doubt that whatever the outcome of this trial there will be an order that they are never to contact each other again, like Thompson and Venables.

 

[Grouse]

Boy Y had the same opportunity to get rid of his bloody clothes, but didn't.

The striking thing is how little effort either of them made to get rid of any evidence - the bloody knife in Boy Y's room, the note with the murder plan in Girl X's room, all the chats about killing Brianna both of them left on their phones etc. I don't see Girl X binning her clothes.

She has seemed careless in other aspects with the paper notes in her room and phone evidence etc, but I do see a possibility of girl X binning her clothes. And also a possibility that she took a knife and used it herself and binned that also (that stab wound in the stomach that was less close to the other wounds? She'd said she wanted to stab at least once even if BG was already dead) . The arrest was over 24 hours later, she had time.

I don't see how that can be discounted unless LE were certain that they had the actual clothes she wore that day (two sets of leggings I believe were taken so it doesn't seem they were that certain IMO )

 

[katydid23]

“You may want to ask yourself, what person pretends to have carried out murder?"​

RP: “Either she played a part in the stabbing, or, say the prosecution, she caused, encouraged or assisted Boy Y to.

“Have they proved proposition one? We say, resoundingly, no. so we move to the second one.

“We have to acknowledge that, on the face of it, there is a plan in the text messages and in that note which was found in her bedroom.

.....snipped BM....

“When we move towards the end of January, Girl X has been talking about murdering Brianna for some time. Had these two really moved out of the fantasy world and into the real world? Much more importantly, if you are unsure that Girl X carried out the stabbing, had she moved out of the fantasy world?”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

So the defense for girl X is trying an interesting manuever---they have a big roadblock to get through---the prosecution's claim that ' girl X was encouraging and planning the murder, even if she didn't actually stab anyone. '

And the text messages are very incriminating. So the defense is trying hard to describe her texts and discussion as pure fantasy, as long as she never stabbed the victim.

The problem is, imo, that she left the fantasy world once she began communicating with the victim in real life, lured her to the park, met her at the bus stop, walked her to the steps, made a fake instagram account of a fake drug dealer to help keep the victim in the park, and asked the accomplice to bring a real knife.

All of the above takes her out of the fantasy world. So I think that defense argument falls flat. IMO

 

[Grouse]

All of the above takes her out of the fantasy world. So I think that defense argument falls flat. IMO

Yep, and allegedly trying to poison her with ibuprofen gel takes it even more out of fantasy and into reality.

 

[Grouse]

PS
I hope I didn't make mistakes in all these conditional sentences.
They are real pain for foreigners

It was grammatically spot on as far as I could see

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

She has seemed careless in other aspects with the paper notes in her room and phone evidence etc, but I do see a possibility of girl X binning her clothes. And also a possibility that she took a knife and used it herself and binned that also (that stab wound in the stomach that was less close to the other wounds? She'd said she wanted to stab at least once even if BG was already dead) . The arrest was over 24 hours later, she had time.

I don't see how that can be discounted unless LE were certain that they had the actual clothes she wore that day (two sets of leggings I believe were taken so it doesn't seem they were that certain IMO )

Yes of course it is technically possible she binned her clothes or a third knife we've not heard about, cannot be discounted etc, but I think it would be a struggle to convince a jury given a) there's no evidence and b) her established pattern [not getting rid of any other evidence] infers against it.

It hasn't been raised by the prosecution, who seem satisfied with the clothing forensics they have, so the burden of proof would be for Boy Y's defence. So far it seems they tried the line of suggesting a police mix up. But we shall see more tomorrow.

 

[Grouse]

Yes of course it is technically possible she binned her clothes or a third knife we've not heard about, cannot be discounted etc, but I think it would be a struggle to convince a jury given a) there's no evidence and b) her established pattern [not getting rid of any other evidence] infers against it.

It hasn't been raised by the prosecution, who seem satisfied with the clothing forensics they have, so the burden of proof would be for Boy Y's defence. So far it seems they tried the line of suggesting a police mix up. But we shall see more tomorrow.

Yes, I agree with all of that, I was only responding to your comment "I don't see Girl X binning her clothes." as I do see her possibly doing that. All conjecture and MOO.

 

[Dotta]

This "Police mix up" seems like "clutching at straws" to me

But,
If there is alleged guilt, it is shared by both.

JMO

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

This "Police mix up" seems like "clutching at straws" to me

At this point I'd be surprised if it forms any part of Boy Y's defence now. JMO.

 

[Dotta]

I noticed he said that GX seemed "giddy".
(DM link I sent upthread)

I'm wondering if he was (allegedly) transfering his actions and emotions on her.
As if describing himself using her.

"Giddy" for me seems like being in a trance.
(e.g. giddy with happiness/oblivious to anything but the source of joy).
Dizzy.

And when asked why he used this adjective, he said that she couldn't stay in one place for a long time.
But doesn't it mean "nervous/expectant"?

Or maybe I'm overthinking this
But it really caught my eye.

Also, some of his answers during cross seemed really insolent to me.
(Like "I was admiring trees")

I know some excused this kind of responding as autism, but I'm really not sure.
I meet many smart a$$ teens in my job - and I recognize such attitude immediately

I met a few autistic kids at work, and they were never provocative.

But it is only my very subjective Opinion.

 

[Alyce]

Day 17 - Tuesday, December 19​

Good morning from Manchester Crown Court.
The trial is listed to resume at 10am.

Just to remind you of the various counsel in the case.
Deanna Heer KC prosecutes, assisted by Cheryl Mottram.
Girl X is defended by Richard Pratt KC, with Sarah Holt as his junior.
Richard Littler KC and Steven Swift appear for Boy Y.
Mrs Justice Yip is presiding over the trial.

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[mrjitty]

I have a few thoughts so far, but easier to hold off to after the verdict.

As usual, it's a relief to listen to some sold UK barristers and KCs and take a break from all the conspiracy theories that seem to be the norm in US trials. I also like the respectful tone of the defence & prosecution to one another. Professional!

 

[Skigh]

I am not sure how well thought out this remark by the defence was:

The prosecution wanted to remind you of Tesco John Wick. He was a hitman. Boy Y, a hitman. Tesco John Wick. More like a Tesco meal deal.

Was he trying to be humorous? If so was not very appropriate.