UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #13

[MEKON]

Or simply nothing ‘strong’ but just desperation. Police have been known certainly in America, to put listening devices into these searched houses !

I'm sure they have been known to do that in the U.K as well. I am sure the Police used this type of surveillance within the Stephen Lawrence case:

Lawrence suspects caught on film

 

[keep-it-real]

Thanks @keep-it-real I must have missed that as I wasn't around at the time of the Vixey Tapes. I have read every post since inception and so I will go back and re familiarise myself. Does anyone know if @Blonderabbit has provided details of what he found on their visit to Heworth Place Alley?

when viewing the video use an ear piece Only use the left ear piece when listening to that group of individuals. If you can listen with speakers or smart tv where you can up the volume even better. I wasnt able to do this so would be interested if anyone picks up with more claritywhat more was said.

Im being careful here as Im not sure of copyright restrictions re links I hope you understand.

 

[oudzuid]

All human interaction needs micro elements taking into consideration. However; from a macro point of view; there is a very high % of victims murdered, that have been conducted by someone they know. Similarly; a high % of murders are committed by Males

@MEKON And perhaps murder was either committed by a female or on behalf of a female.

 

[oudzuid]

when viewing the video use an ear piece Only use the left ear piece when listening to that group of individuals. If you can listen with speakers or smart tv where you can up the volume even better. I wasnt able to do this so would be interested if anyone picks up with more claritywhat more was said.

Im being careful here as Im not sure of copyright restrictions re links I hope you understand.

Appreciated @keep-it-real

 

[Popejohn3]

yes I agree @keep-it-real as this would probably have shown the Alley person face on.

I fail to understand: if police want to identify a person on cctv and they actually have better pictures of him surely logic dictates they show them ?

 

[oudzuid]

I fail to understand: if police want to identify a person on cctv and they actually have better pictures of him surely logic dictates they show them ?

@Popejohn3 I understand the reason they would not wish to do this is under PACE guidelines.
If they show the face then at a trial the defendant barrister could claim that this face was shown in MSM and so too easy for people to say-Thats him.

However, If they only show the person where the face is not recognisable but other characteristics:

Build
Hair Colour
Stature
Walking style
Walking habits

And someone comes forward and says "That's my husband, wife or Girlfriend" then they have a far stronger prosecution case.

I hope that this helps.
Perhaps @Angleterre Who is a verified Law Enforcement member can comment on my points?

 

[Yozzer]

All human interaction needs micro elements taking into consideration. However; from a macro point of view; there is a very high % of victims murdered, that have been conducted by someone they know. Similarly; a high % of murders are committed by Males

And a very high % are murdered between 9pm and 6am (peaking between 9pm and 12 midnight).

 

[Popejohn3]

@Popejohn3 I understand the reason they would not wish to do this is under PACE guidelines.
If they show the face then at a trial the defendant barrister could claim that this face was shown in MSM and so too easy for people to say-Thats him.

However, If they only show the person where the face is not recognisable but other characteristics:

Build
Hair Colour
Stature
Walking style
Walking habits

And someone comes forward and says "That's my husband, wife or Girlfriend" then they have a far stronger prosecution case.

I hope that this helps.
Perhaps @Angleterre Who is a verified Law Enforcement member can comment on my points?

You see they are not being shown committing a crime ... just helping police with their enquiries

 

[keep-it-real]

@Popejohn3 I understand the reason they would not wish to do this is under PACE guidelines.
If they show the face then at a trial the defendant barrister could claim that this face was shown in MSM and so too easy for people to say-Thats him.

However, If they only show the person where the face is not recognisable but other characteristics:

Build
Hair Colour
Stature
Walking style
Walking habits

And someone comes forward and says "That's my husband, wife or Girlfriend" then they have a far stronger prosecution case.

I hope that this helps.
Perhaps @Angleterre Who is a verified Law Enforcement member can comment on my points?

If it was the case that they purposely choose to disguise his face you have to ask yourself what other evidence do they have against him because they made appeals showing the faces of the man outside costcutters shop in light jacket, the man at Tang Hall co op and the man boarding the bus who they were also seeking the identity of.

 

[ArcadeFire]

I’ve also been down the alleyway behind CL house, from memory you could (just about) get a hatchback type car down it but not all the way as it curves and it would be very tight.

 

[Blonderabbit]

@Blonderabbit as you visited the alleyway can I ask you in your opinion was it wide enough someone riding a bicycle, moped or motorcycle directly to the rear entrance of Claudia's property.
Also did you notice how many if any properties had rear security lights.
Was your visit conducted in daylight, darkness or both?
I know the alleyway has been improved since the investigation but when you visited what in particular were you looking at/for and what notes did you make on that particular location.

yes you could ride a cycle or moped in there, however you wouldn't, as its as I said full of broken glass, brambles and all kinds of rubbish, you would get off and walk it. I went there in daylight, I have been there a few times. I did not notice about security lights. what I can tell you is the the scene you see of alleywayman is very different in real life. the stretch you see him walk is perhaps 30ft long the alley behind CL house takes a sharp right angled left turn just out of shot - you walk up the ally and then it turns sharply to the right to reach CLs house. (if instead you walk past the alley you walk into Heworth place and the houses on the left including 15 are closer than it would be to walk down and behind CLs house.
Question - why do the police not show you anymore of the scene? they obviously can see where the person goes. If the go down the alley it could be anyone.
if they go to 15 Heworth place it can only be realistically one of four men.

 

[Blonderabbit]

At the very least you could back a vehicle into the entrance of the alley.

I think you are just trying to make your answer fit. its a misleading reply you just would not back down there.

 

[Yozzer]

yes you could ride a cycle or moped in there, however you wouldn't, as its as I said full of broken glass, brambles and all kinds of rubbish, you would get off and walk it. I went there in daylight, I have been there a few times. I did not notice about security lights. what I can tell you is the the scene you see of alleywayman is very different in real life. the stretch you see him walk is perhaps 30ft long the alley behind CL house takes a sharp right angled left turn just out of shot - you walk up the ally and then it turns sharply to the right to reach CLs house. (if instead you walk past the alley you walk into Heworth place and the houses on the left including 15 are closer than it would be to walk down and behind CLs house.
Question - why do the police not show you anymore of the scene? they obviously can see where the person goes. If the go down the alley it could be anyone.
if they go to 15 Heworth place it can only be realistically one of three men.

I think it is a given that there is a link between ppl who lived in 15HP and 46HR in March 2009. To remove a deceased person covertly, the action is more likely to have occurred under the cover of darkness and isolation in the alley than under the streetlights in HP. This is irrespective of which route the mystery man took when the cctv ended in the early evening and early morning clips. I guess until NYP tell us for sure why they were asking about vehicular access to the alley, we won't be able to determine whether this actually occurred. My hunch is that a resident tipped them off in Feb 2015 about a noise they had heard in the direction of the rear of their property but I have no evidence to support that - other than Malyn saying they were responding to a specific tip off prompting the alley search and 4 significant arrests.

 

[keep-it-real]

yes you could ride a cycle or moped in there, however you wouldn't, as its as I said full of broken glass, brambles and all kinds of rubbish, you would get off and walk it. I went there in daylight, I have been there a few times. I did not notice about security lights. what I can tell you is the the scene you see of alleywayman is very different in real life. the stretch you see him walk is perhaps 30ft long the alley behind CL house takes a sharp right angled left turn just out of shot - you walk up the ally and then it turns sharply to the right to reach CLs house. (if instead you walk past the alley you walk into Heworth place and the houses on the left including 15 are closer than it would be to walk down and behind CLs house.
Question - why do the police not show you anymore of the scene? they obviously can see where the person goes. If the go down the alley it could be anyone.
if they go to 15 Heworth place it can only be realistically one of four men.

Thank you your comments are very helpful
A few more questions if you dont mind
When you mention all kinds of rubbish do you mean household rubbish or litter or both..
Was there any evidence of disgarded cigarette stubs/packets. Drink cans, takeaway food packaging.
Was there anything you noted that you thought, interesting, odd, or obvious but not mentioned in earlier reporting.
Can I ask what year you visited the alley?
I am still interested re any security lighting on the residential properties at that time .. was there a reason you didnt also choose to visit at a time of similar darkness?
Did you notice anything that you made note of that you

to your last question:- my thoughts are that there were possibly more people and vehicles in Heworth Terrace than they are willing to reveal to the public... but thats just my opinion.

I wouldnt agree with you on your last point where you say realistically it could only be one of four men.

Again thankyou for being open to sharing with us

 

[Blonderabbit]

Thank you your comments are very helpful
A few more questions if you dont mind
When you mention all kinds of rubbish do you mean household rubbish or litter or both..
Was there any evidence of disgarded cigarette stubs/packets. Drink cans, takeaway food packaging.
Was there anything you noted that you thought, interesting, odd, or obvious but not mentioned in earlier reporting.
Can I ask what year you visited the alley?
I am still interested re any security lighting on the residential properties at that time .. was there a reason you didnt also choose to visit at a time of similar darkness?
Did you notice anything that you made note of that you

to your last question:- my thoughts are that there were possibly more people and vehicles in Heworth Terrace than they are willing to reveal to the public... but thats just my opinion.

I wouldn't agree with you on your last point where you say realistically it could only be one of four men.

Again thankyou for being open to sharing with us

yes just general litter. Sometimes I do pick up on things that seem odd, or it stimulates my curiosity. There was nothing of that in the alley. I have only been down the alley in 2020 and 2021. Sometimes I may have a thought and I like to go see if its realistic. Alleyway man disappears for 1 min 8 secs. when you look at google earth the scene is distorted. Alleywayman is walking at approx 1.4metres a second - intially looking at google earth I did not think it was possible to get to 15 Heworth place and back in view. When you visit you realise its easily possible and he would have time to open and walk in pick something up and walk out. plenty of time. its a bit further to the back of claudias house or a shorter distance to her back gate. A body out the back - I just don't think so, there is to much evidence to suggest she left alive from the front door. That said, its very possible someone used the alley to move something

 

[keep-it-real]

To all Forum members

The last sighting of her was at 3.10pm by the childminder heading towards home
Who thinks CL left her home again between that time and the time she made the calls/texts to people in the evening to another location.

 

[keep-it-real]

yes just general litter. Sometimes I do pick up on things that seem odd, or it stimulates my curiosity. There was nothing of that in the alley. I have only been down the alley in 2020 and 2021. Sometimes I may have a thought and I like to go see if its realistic. Alleyway man disappears for 1 min 8 secs. when you look at google earth the scene is distorted. Alleywayman is walking at approx 1.4metres a second - intially looking at google earth I did not think it was possible to get to 15 Heworth place and back in view. When you visit you realise its easily possible and he would have time to open and walk in pick something up and walk out. plenty of time. its a bit further to the back of claudias house or a shorter distance to her back gate. A body out the back - I just don't think so, there is to much evidence to suggest she left alive from the front door. That said, its very possible someone used the alley to move something

What about the litter though did you see or look for any Cigarette stubb/packets, drinks cans, or takeaway food packaging?

 

[MEKON]

@keep-it-real I wonder if the choice of day was deliberately following Bin Day in Heworth so that there was less debris and possibly it made it easier to load a large bin bag into a vehicle either in the alley or backed into the alley entrance.

I'm sure there has been discussions that people's wheelie bins were checked

If there was somewhere around the back alley where a vehicle could be used out of CCTV range. Then a body could be wrapped up or put in a bag before being placed in a wheelie bin; so no DNA was transposed onto the bin
Then the bin could be wheeled to the vehicle and the body placed in the vehicle. Or the bin and body could even be placed in the vehicle.

Apologies for the bluntness and morbidness

Surely something must of happened in that alley for the Police to of searched it in the way they did 1 year later after Claudia disappeared

Did "an Eagle eyed local" put "2 and 2 together" at a later date and remember something strange happening with their bin

 

[MEKON]

If it was the case that they purposely choose to disguise his face you have to ask yourself what other evidence do they have against him because they made appeals showing the faces of the man outside costcutters shop in light jacket, the man at Tang Hall co op and the man boarding the bus who they were also seeking the identity of.

Maybe it's because the Police know they aren't involved with the criminal activity. But they could of unknowingly seen something of much importance and the Police are desperate to speak to them

 

[Blonderabbit]

To all Forum members

The last sighting of her was at 3.10pm by the childminder heading towards home
Who thinks CL left her home again between that time and the time she made the calls/texts to people in the evening to another location.

The childminder - where does that info come from?