UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #17

[Dotta]

There is much more to this story than that - in my opinion.

It seems to be meticulously planned and executed.

After all, there is still no body found.

And nobody is arrested.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

There is much more to this story than that - in my opinion.

It seems to be meticulously planned and executed.

After all, there is still no body found.

And nobody is arrested.

I've not come across a murder yet that was meticulously planned and executed apart from unemotional professional hits.

What does happen is that people get into situations where their loss of control in a highly charged situation causes them to kill someone.

A combination of resourcefulness, ability to think dispassionately when confronted by a body and blind luck enables them to dispose of the body in such a way that it is not found.

If the scene of the offence is not identified then it makes it more difficult to have a comprehensive evidential trail, identify suspects and have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge.

Cover up and conspiracy is the remit of organised crime and state sponsored action. Blokes down the pub don't agree to cover up murder....think what they are being asked to do.....how would you react to such a request? Even if they did, at least one would get a loose tongue and give the game away....the police have ways of obtaining just such evidence.

Allow Occam's Razor to lead the way.

 

[Woodburnbay]

Yes ok - looks skyward

Sorry, I don't understand your reply?

 

[Dotta]

I've not come across a murder yet that was meticulously planned and executed apart from unemotional professional hits.

What does happen is that people get into situations where their loss of control in a highly charged situation causes them to kill someone.

A combination of resourcefulness, ability to think dispassionately when confronted by a body and blind luck enables them to dispose of the body in such a way that it is not found.

If the scene of the offence is not identified then it makes it more difficult to have a comprehensive evidential trail, identify suspects and have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge.

Cover up and conspiracy is the remit of organised crime and state sponsored action. Blokes down the pub don't agree to cover up murder....think what they are being asked to do.....how would you react to such a request? Even if they did, at least one would get a loose tongue and give the game away....the police have ways of obtaining just such evidence.

Allow Occam's Razor to lead the way.

Well, whatever you say

I just lurk here and follow very interesting discussion.

 

[Blonderabbit]

She had many married lovers AFAI remember correctly.

Why would she, out of the blue, decide to expose one of them?

Take a look at this - it’s a study based on this specific point - page 38 I think.

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/GSH2018/GSH18_Gender-related_killing_of_women_and_girls.pdf

 

[Blonderabbit]

I've not come across a murder yet that was meticulously planned and executed apart from unemotional professional hits.

What does happen is that people get into situations where their loss of control in a highly charged situation causes them to kill someone.

A combination of resourcefulness, ability to think dispassionately when confronted by a body and blind luck enables them to dispose of the body in such a way that it is not found.

If the scene of the offence is not identified then it makes it more difficult to have a comprehensive evidential trail, identify suspects and have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge.

Cover up and conspiracy is the remit of organised crime and state sponsored action. Blokes down the pub don't agree to cover up murder....think what they are being asked to do.....how would you react to such a request? Even if they did, at least one would get a loose tongue and give the game away....the police have ways of obtaining just such evidence.

Allow Occam's Razor to lead the way.

Interesting statement, it is one of the first posts in this entire thread, that stimulates deeper thought. Thank you

 

[Woodburnbay]

Likely but not fact. She could have got into someone’s car, a fight may have broken out - she could have been strangled - the killer then has her and her phone bag etc - think for someone who can Cooley turn off her phone - could easily come up with a disposal method which could never be uncovered.

The phone
If you have Claudia, her bag and her phone. Do you not turn it off immediately after the deed. if you know it is there.
Or
Do you keep it switched on to see what messages or calls come in that may indicate that people are starting to miss her.
Do you want to have access to photos, if there are any on the phone or texts that may point to what Claudia knew and who she was taking to?

Or it could have been as simple as not immediately having the phone or being able to locate the phone and once finding / discovering the phone, turning it off.

If Claudia was not killed at home, did the culprit have to return to Claudia's home, search it and locate the phone..
What should be taken into consideration in all of this is that as Claudia was described as a prolific tester, being separated from her phone would be unusual.

The phone in the hands of the culprit and remaining switched on, in itself is quite a risk. Unless the culprit has a good knowledge of phones, radius and mast and that their discovery by location would be unlikely?

Was it not declared that when the phone was turned off it could have been anywhere within a 9 mile radius of a certain mast?

Did the first SIO, Galloway not also say that he was aware of a more precise radius of the phone, but was this just him putting the frighteners on. It never transpired or became mentioned when the second and IMO far more professional SIO Malyn, re investigated the case and found many mistakes made by the first SIO, Galloway.

 

[Blonderabbit]

My thoughts - was it meticulously planned or was it a single person who lost control in a charged situation? From where I am I think it’s a bit of both. I think something has taken place before Friday the 13th of March that is like a ticking time bomb, something has been said which has started a countdown, Claudia has realised her mistake and kept clear not realising her card was marked. From my point of view it’s obviously a planned attack - the police released footage of alleyway man, we could see on both occasions others in the back ground, similarly with the bus footage, at least two vehicles, at least two men - 4 men arrested and a case put to the cps - the braking focus. It’s likely planned in my opinion. All along Claudia had no idea - she was planning ahead to see her father and her mother on Mother’s Day and even in the short term how she was getting to work.

 

[Woodburnbay]

I'm looking to pick up this thread properly......there's a lot to read!

FWIW, if Claudia had relationships with married men, then the most likely motive IMO is that she was going to expose it to his wife, with the financial/emotional (children) consequences of divorce for him, hence he silenced her.

It may not have been planned, possibly rage, but likely in a place other than her home.

I would say that this is the most likely scenario/motive but I look forward to exploring the additional evidence/theories.

Of course it was well publicised that Claudia had an affair with Lee Horwell and that Lee and his wife were childhood sweethearts. The marriage broke up when the news leaked.

Source:

The secret life of missing chef Claudia Lawrence - and the 'numerous liaisons' with married men

Missing chef Claudia Lawrence had a secret affair with a father-of-two that broke up his marriage, it was revealed last night.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Lee and his brother owned a scrapyard within early close proximity of Heworth.

 

[Blonderabbit]

The phone
If you have Claudia, her bag and her phone. Do you not turn it off immediately after the deed. if you know it is there.
Or
Do you keep it switched on to see what messages or calls come in that may indicate that people are starting to miss her.
Do you want to have access to photos, if there are any on the phone or texts that may point to what Claudia knew and who she was taking to?

Or it could have been as simple as not immediately having the phone or being able to locate the phone and once finding / discovering the phone, turning it off.

If Claudia was not killed at home, did the culprit have to return to Claudia's home, search it and locate the phone..
What should be taken into consideration in all of this is that as Claudia was described as a prolific tester, being separated from her phone would be unusual.

The phone in the hands of the culprit and remaining switched on, in itself is quite a risk. Unless the culprit has a good knowledge of phones, radius and mast and that their discovery by location would be unlikely?

Was it not declared that when the phone was turned off it could have been anywhere within a 9 mile radius of a certain mast?

Did the first SIO, Galloway not also say that he was aware of a more precise radius of the phone, but was this just him putting the frighteners on. It never transpired or became mentioned when the second and IMO far more professional SIO Malyn, re investigated the case and found many mistakes made by the first SIO, Galloway.

Strategically if I found a phone of someone I’d just dispatched I’d be keen to get rid of it asap. My guess and it is only a guess is the perp found it in his possession when he turned it off, I find it hard to believe she was killed in her home, I think she left at some point believing she was staying somewhere overnight. As regards your questioning re mobile signal /location etc - just look At previous cases - like Holly and Jessica/Ian Huntley - mobile technology could be traced to a location, not as well as today to
Pin point accuracy but still give you a picture of who was where and when.

 

[Woodburnbay]

Strategically if I found a phone of someone I’d just dispatched I’d be keen to get rid of it asap. My guess and it is only a guess is the perp found it in his possession when he turned it off, I find it hard to believe she was killed in her home, I think she left at some point believing she was staying somewhere overnight. As regards your questioning re mobile signal /location etc - just look At previous cases - like Holly and Jessica/Ian Huntley - mobile technology could be traced to a location, not as well as today to
Pin point accuracy but still give you a picture of who was where and when.

Thanks, great points. I believe that the comparrison to Holly and Jessica has been mentioned before. The triangulation in Cambridgeshire at the time was somewhat better than what the police had access to in the Claudia case.
The 9 mile radius quoted was somewhat limiting in CL case.
I agree that it is unlikely she was killed at home.

 

[Popejohn3]

I'm looking to pick up this thread properly......there's a lot to read!

FWIW, if Claudia had relationships with married men, then the most likely motive IMO is that she was going to expose it to his wife, with the financial/emotional (children) consequences of divorce for him, hence he silenced her.

It may not have been planned, possibly rage, but likely in a place other than her home.

I would say that this is the most likely scenario/motive but I look forward to exploring the additional evidence/theories.

I agree with you 100%

 

[Popejohn3]

She had many married lovers AFAI remember correctly.

Why would she, out of the blue, decide to expose one of them?

Ok here is a powerful reason for a possible exposure!
What if Claudia was pregnant ? Or simply believed she was pregnant ?
Also what if he told her HIS wife was pregnant!?
I can see fireworks in this scenario !
All in my opinion
It’s great to see A verified LE here
But what is SAR ?

 

[Blonderabbit]

Thanks, great points. I believe that the comparrison to Holly and Jessica has been mentioned before. The triangulation in Cambridgeshire at the time was somewhat better than what the police had access to in the Claudia case.
The 9 mile radius quoted was somewhat limiting in CL case.
I agree that it is unlikely she was killed at home.

I’m not sure if the 9 mile radius was a miscommunication because if you look at other releases by msm and the police they say (Vlaudias phone was active in the weeks before her disappearance in Acomb) (Acomb is a small suburb) perhaps 2 miles radius if that) and the Aldo stated her phone was active near her home 2 hrs after she failed to show up at work - Google it it mentions Heworth. Again Heworth - 1 mile radius? - when the police release appeals yes of course they are looking for info, however I think in many of the appeals in this case the team were directly targeting the perps -a clue is read between the lines - it’s not what’s being said - it’s what’s not being said. The bus cctv for instance - appeal for white van (Vauxhall estate) went on well past the white van to reveal it all kicking off outside Claudias - illustrating to the perps they were on camera - the Heworth place appeal board etc etc

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The phone
If you have Claudia, her bag and her phone. Do you not turn it off immediately after the deed. if you know it is there.
Or
Do you keep it switched on to see what messages or calls come in that may indicate that people are starting to miss her.
Do you want to have access to photos, if there are any on the phone or texts that may point to what Claudia knew and who she was taking to?

Or it could have been as simple as not immediately having the phone or being able to locate the phone and once finding / discovering the phone, turning it off.

If Claudia was not killed at home, did the culprit have to return to Claudia's home, search it and locate the phone..
What should be taken into consideration in all of this is that as Claudia was described as a prolific tester, being separated from her phone would be unusual.

The phone in the hands of the culprit and remaining switched on, in itself is quite a risk. Unless the culprit has a good knowledge of phones, radius and mast and that their discovery by location would be unlikely?

Was it not declared that when the phone was turned off it could have been anywhere within a 9 mile radius of a certain mast?

Did the first SIO, Galloway not also say that he was aware of a more precise radius of the phone, but was this just him putting the frighteners on. It never transpired or became mentioned when the second and IMO far more professional SIO Malyn, re investigated the case and found many mistakes made by the first SIO, Galloway.

Without getting too technical:

1. A mobile phone will search for the cell tower that is sending the strongest signal to the phone and connect to it, in most cases.
2. Generally this will be the nearest cell tower to the phones location.
3. The phone can also identify the additional cell towers where the signal is not as strong.....it may lock onto these in some circumstances.
4. Cell towers are numerous in densely populated areas (a few streets) and much further apart (often many miles) in rural areas.
5. By using triangulation with cell towers and taking into account the strength of the signal received from the phone, it is possible to identify the area in which the phone was located, using historic cell site analysis.
6. The the scale of the area identified is very much dependent on how close the cell towers are to each other. Cities can locate to a few streets. Urban areas could be an area of many miles.

Smart phones GPS and location tracking can also be used to locate a phone or identify where it was, much more accurately, before being switched off.

I have read that CL did not have a smart phone but an old style phone so quite possibly no GPS capability.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

But what is SAR ?

Search and Rescue

Skills on land, in water and steep ground/rock faces.

Search skills include technical search skills in finding missing, lost and injured persons in urban, semi-rural, rural and upland terrain.

Deployed generally by police but also fire service, ambulance service, HM Coastguard and DEFRA (flood incidents).

 

[Popejohn3]

Search and Rescue

Skills on land, in water and steep ground/rock faces.

Search skills include technical search skills in finding missing, lost and injured persons in urban, semi-rural, rural and upland terrain.

Deployed generally by police but also fire service, ambulance service, HM Coastguard and DEFRA (flood incidents).

Thank you

 

[Popejohn3]

I've not come across a murder yet that was meticulously planned and executed apart from unemotional professional hits.

What does happen is that people get into situations where their loss of control in a highly charged situation causes them to kill someone.

A combination of resourcefulness, ability to think dispassionately when confronted by a body and blind luck enables them to dispose of the body in such a way that it is not found.

If the scene of the offence is not identified then it makes it more difficult to have a comprehensive evidential trail, identify suspects and have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge.

Cover up and conspiracy is the remit of organised crime and state sponsored action. Blokes down the pub don't agree to cover up murder....think what they are being asked to do.....how would you react to such a request? Even if they did, at least one would get a loose tongue and give the game away....the police have ways of obtaining just such evidence.

Allow Occam's Razor to lead the way.

Occams Razor you’ll find this expression was quoted way way back !
And because of the huge tremendous effort done by her father RIP this case became rather top heavy very quickly.
I think you need to go back to the very beginning because, as her mother says ,police missed something obvious !
Good luck

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Occams Razor you’ll find this expression was quoted way way back !
And because of the huge tremendous effort done by her father RIP this case became rather top heavy very quickly.
I think you need to go back to the very beginning because, as her mother says ,police missed something obvious !
Good luck

At least playing catchup will keep me out of mischief for a while

 

[Dotta]

I think you need to go back to the very beginning because, as her mother says ,police missed something obvious !
Good luck

As they say:
The perp is always in the 1st file volume!