UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #18

[Blonderabbit]

I have checked again and reason White Jacket man doesn't appear in Morning footage in cctv in chronological order is because it is a shorter edited version than the one I have just posted.

In the full morning version that I have posted, it shows activity on HR when Alleyman is out of sight.

In the chronological order cctv, it is cut and doesn't show activity with White Coat man in it where he walks past 35 Heworth Road carrying something and in the direction (Again) of Nags Head but on the opposite side of the road to the night before.

It could be that white coat man was just coincidentally in both cctv footages but in crime investigations coincidences are often dismissed.

Thank you - good research. Would you be able to provide your best links to the 1.bus cctv 2.alleyman morning, 3.Alleyman evening - so we are all working off the same hymn sheet?
Let’s give them an unforgettable Christmas !

 

[Blonderabbit]

I have checked again and reason White Jacket man doesn't appear in Morning footage in cctv in chronological order is because it is a shorter edited version than the one I have just posted.

In the full morning version that I have posted, it shows activity on HR when Alleyman is out of sight.

In the chronological order cctv, it is cut and doesn't show activity with White Coat man in it where he walks past 35 Heworth Road carrying something and in the direction (Again) of Nags Head but on the opposite side of the road to the night before.

It could be that white coat man was just coincidentally in both cctv footages but in crime investigations coincidences are often dismissed.

Re-reading just 1 point - I believe costcutter man to be seen only in morning footage on the odd side walking in front of 35 carrying what looks to be a paper sized object. There’s is another figure - stocky which appears on the even side crossing Heworth place - I’m thinking this is Alistair cooper

 

[cortina]

thanks. for the. correction on Halliwell...my mistake, chaps.

I don't know whether police took in some. of the nags heads crowd because they thought one or more were directly. involved or if they wanted to shake. them into. revealing what they knew...eg, just. as an example that the perp may have been part of the drugs scene...this wouldn't necessarily mean that they knew the person or exactly who it. was, but. to. pass on to the police what they knew. they'd. have to risk incurring the wrath of the druggies...it wouldn't also necessarily mean that. Claudia was. involved with drugs in any capacity at all.
of course, it. could also be that one or more of the nags head crowd was or were the perps.
I leave cctv analysis. to people who are better at that than I am...ie everyone, but somehow I do get the impression she did go outside..either by herself or with someone else..but its true. that I. cant. find evidence and I don't know whether that. would be to go somewhere or to simply talk to someone

 

[NorthParade]

I have checked again and reason White Jacket man doesn't appear in Morning footage in cctv in chronological order is because it is a shorter edited version than the one I have just posted.

In the full morning version that I have posted, it shows activity on HR when Alleyman is out of sight.

In the chronological order cctv, it is cut and doesn't show activity with White Coat man in it where he walks past 35 Heworth Road carrying something and in the direction (Again) of Nags Head but on the opposite side of the road to the night before.

It could be that white coat man was just coincidentally in both cctv footages but in crime investigations coincidences are often dismissed.

For both alleyman and white coat man to be present at the same time, on the two occasions highlighted by police, would seem to go beyond coincidence. Trying to put myself in the latter’s shoes, I wouldn’t return to the scene in the morning wearing the same clothes unless it was unavoidable - but then, if (pure speculation here) you’ve been up all night engaged in something nefarious and difficult, maybe you haven’t had time to go home and change? I also note the possible bulge under his jacket in the morning, which I’d not read about before.

 

[Blonderabbit]

For both alleyman and white coat man to be present at the same time, on the two occasions highlighted by police, would seem to go beyond coincidence. Trying to put myself in the latter’s shoes, I wouldn’t return to the scene in the morning wearing the same clothes unless it was unavoidable - but then, if (pure speculation here) you’ve been up all night engaged in something nefarious and difficult, maybe you haven’t had time to go home and change? I also note the possible bulge under his jacket in the morning, which I’d not read about before.

Yes, I think you’re on the right track - imagine you tell police you went for a curry and then slept on the sofa. If you were married - it would mean no one would have to collaborate your story. I just looked at a case (not connected to this) of a woman murdered in her cottage - the perp had gone in and killed the woman just on the spur of the moment after taking drugs - he then went back to a pub he had been at earlier to create an alibi - taking selfies there. I imagine after the crime - you would maybe go for a curry, then go home and sleep on the sofa . Perhaps then whilst disposal is taking place elsewhere you maybe seen in full view in Heworth. - just a thought…….

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Hi, I don't if where I'm replying is where I should be in the thread, or how involved people are these days. I haven't read any earlier chats about this, but the case has been on my mind ever since it happened as I was in York the day she was taken (I'm assuming) and my time in York that day was otherwise happy. It was such a sad thing to go away from that town and think of. And all the worry of the family, and her possible suffering. I do still hope she is alive, but I looked again at the footage of the guy in Heworth Place the other night. Again, forgive me if I'm reiterating what's already been said, but when he hesitates coming back the other way it's noticeable that he has a bag. Is that her rucksack? Also it seems quite full. Whites can be quite bulky, but what if he had removed garments or was removing evidence? The hesitation might also be recognising the person in white going up the street, and perhaps not wanting to be seen by them, or else if not recognisable to them, not wanting them to see her bag, but worn by someone else? Obviously, under that light, it's difficult to tell what the bag is like - but the profile under the lamp looks quite teardropped, like the Karrimor design shown. Also, when he (if it's he - they seem to be wearing wide leg jeans or trousers and have a paunch and have short sandy or brown hair, and be white) goes into Heworth Place, he seems to be wearing blue and red check shirt, worn loose, with a longish dark coat. Quite dark, inconspicuous clothing, but not so concealing as it would appear secretive. If this guy is a perpetrator of a crime, it looks like it might have been spontaneous - a row, or something unplanned which happened after a build-up. A premeditated killer would have surely worn a cover-up, as gangsters have done near where I live. To pass muster, perhaps he is known to the area, so had to avoid people who knew CL. But who knows? Perhaps he is an innocent bystander. That image of him waiting for the guy in white to pass though is branded onto my mind. It's so unusual, so suspicious, it looks like some sort of concealment is going on. So I wondered if it was possibly the bag. And if the baggier clothing was to conceal something under a coat or in a pocket. A weapon? Sorry if this is hard to read. I've been scratching my head over this for days in hope of connecting the evidence. I am so spooked by anyone disappearing, but just a woman going about her daily life disappearing like this with no trace and someone getting away with it makes me so worried. Women are not being kept safe from harm because some men are allowed to get away with so much for too long. If we had more controls over men's behaviour, and intervened early in the development of predatory behaviours, I don't think we would see as much tragedy as this happen.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Alley man?

No, alleyman has hair.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

The under cover policeman working at the NH I’d being stated as fact!
Do we have proof of this ?
If true would explain the conspiracy of silence but not necessarily related to Claudia.
Anyhow an other question would be : did she know about the undercover cop and what was he / she investigating ?

This was my concern. Had she had any contact with the police before? Was she an informant? I hesitate to suggest anything, as so much has been said about her as a person. I don't want to add to the horrendous judgmental crap I've seen. Just recently read a story about CL's 'mysterious love life, where they dance around calling her the kinds of things anyone seems to call unmarried women who have sexual relationships. They actually said she'd had 12 'relationships' over 5 years. If what thye mean is casual sex or flings then that's less than two a year. How the hell is that promiscuous? Plus, let's not underestimate the capacity of jealous women and jealous men to make up stories about someone they want to sound authoritative about. Or the capacity of people to feel guilty they didn't protect her, knowing there are some dots to join, but having been too drunk to work things out? Or maybe they don't want to? I wonder if CL's rom com novels are a symptom of our age: hard-working, young women who are independent but never quite meet their match. And older men especially don't take kindly to rejection.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

It looks planned, and if it was, I'd guess they covered disposal. if it was just spur then a body is hot property, and it could very well be discoverable. most of the murders in the media with similar features to Claudias - the body is never far from the murder scene - wherever that may have been!

This is a major illogicality of them searching the cellar at the Acomb. Why would you? They would put either very near or somewhere far enough for it to avoid discovery. Although there was that seemingly mad-person message about CL being 'in the water - the nearest approach to the water by car being the Foss, near the bridge - a body that's buried is far likely to be discovered. I looked on a map today and there are allotments quite nearby. However, i would have thought that if the phone was 'switched off, deliberately at 12:10pm the next day, this was to give the illusion that she was still alive up until that point. I think when we see the man in Heworth Place with the rucksack, she may already be dead or else be held somewhere (I know, it doesn't bear thinking about, but we have to). I agree though, the body couldn't be that far away as it could have been one person, acting alone. So much harder to remove a person than people think. I really hope this wasn't what happened to her, that this was some sort of escape, or worse, someone tried to kidnap her and she escaped, but as she is still silent and all these people seem suspicious on footage I'm afraid I'm inclined towards something terrible happening. Instinctively, if it was the guy in Heworth Place, I've got to think it was spontaneous - his gait is wide and uneven, as if he's been drinking. If he killed her, and removed the body somewhere temporarily and makes this brief return to retrieve the rucksack and some vital identifying evidence, some of the more terrible things begin to connect.

 

[Blonderabbit]

No, alleyman has hair.

Hi good morning ! You seem sure - can you screen shot your evidence and provide a source to show he has hair - I’d be most grateful

 

[Woodburnbay]

Hi, I don't if where I'm replying is where I should be in the thread, or how involved people are these days. I haven't read any earlier chats about this, but the case has been on my mind ever since it happened as I was in York the day she was taken (I'm assuming) and my time in York that day was otherwise happy. It was such a sad thing to go away from that town and think of. And all the worry of the family, and her possible suffering. I do still hope she is alive, but I looked again at the footage of the guy in Heworth Place the other night. Again, forgive me if I'm reiterating what's already been said, but when he hesitates coming back the other way it's noticeable that he has a bag. Is that her rucksack? Also it seems quite full. Whites can be quite bulky, but what if he had removed garments or was removing evidence? The hesitation might also be recognising the person in white going up the street, and perhaps not wanting to be seen by them, or else if not recognisable to them, not wanting them to see her bag, but worn by someone else? Obviously, under that light, it's difficult to tell what the bag is like - but the profile under the lamp looks quite teardropped, like the Karrimor design shown. Also, when he (if it's he - they seem to be wearing wide leg jeans or trousers and have a paunch and have short sandy or brown hair, and be white) goes into Heworth Place, he seems to be wearing blue and red check shirt, worn loose, with a longish dark coat. Quite dark, inconspicuous clothing, but not so concealing as it would appear secretive. If this guy is a perpetrator of a crime, it looks like it might have been spontaneous - a row, or something unplanned which happened after a build-up. A premeditated killer would have surely worn a cover-up, as gangsters have done near where I live. To pass muster, perhaps he is known to the area, so had to avoid people who knew CL. But who knows? Perhaps he is an innocent bystander. That image of him waiting for the guy in white to pass though is branded onto my mind. It's so unusual, so suspicious, it looks like some sort of concealment is going on. So I wondered if it was possibly the bag. And if the baggier clothing was to conceal something under a coat or in a pocket. A weapon? Sorry if this is hard to read. I've been scratching my head over this for days in hope of connecting the evidence. I am so spooked by anyone disappearing, but just a woman going about her daily life disappearing like this with no trace and someone getting away with it makes me so worried. Women are not being kept safe from harm because some men are allowed to get away with so much for too long. If we had more controls over men's behaviour, and intervened early in the development of predatory behaviours, I don't think we would see as much tragedy as this happen.

The only part of your theory that doesn't work is this:

You are referring to Alleyman hesitating and so you must be referring to the evening cctv and not the morning cctv.

Claudia was still alive in the evening cctv as she spoke to her parents c 1 hour later.

 

[Woodburnbay]

Sticking to Alleyman CCTV in the evening. This may have been said before but I will make the point:

I believe that alley man and white coat are working together both morning and evening.

Alleyman is checking out the rear and side of CL property whilst she is both alive and on the phone to others. He came from the direction of Nags Head pub.

White Coat comes from opposite direction and gets ahead of alley man as he is ready to walk back along HR in direction of pub.
Notice how when alley man gets to the corner of HP and HR he looks to his left along HR as he enters HR.

Is he covering white coats back.

We are not privy to earlier shots of this cctv footage, but did they both originally come from the direction of Nags head. White coat walking further along HR so that he can do a U turn and come back on himself.
Perhaps he did the U turn as alley man walked into HP?

But its still too early for them just to hang around and do nothing.

Did they both knock CL door and either be invited in?
Were they both in her house at the time of CL calls to parents?

Or
Were they just a smokescreen to later activity c 9pm with the SUV outside CL house.

In the morning, if the two were then the clean up brigade, why did they risk doing this at a time that CL could have been awaiting a lift. If she was killed in the evening, would they to do everything together.
Or were they coming back for an item that "Must not be found"-Phone etc.

For me, whoever did this seems to have covered their tracks very well and to be caught on cctv twice and accidentally would be too much of a schoolboy error.

Particularly when they could have avoided cctv attention by not going left of CL house and sticking to a route that went like this:

Drive a car into nags Car Park
Walk to CL house and access via front door or rear door by accessing alley behind her house from car park
CL could then have been put into car in car park and car driven off.

There is certainly more to this case than we know.

 

[Woodburnbay]

Hi, I don't if where I'm replying is where I should be in the thread, or how involved people are these days. I haven't read any earlier chats about this, but the case has been on my mind ever since it happened as I was in York the day she was taken (I'm assuming) and my time in York that day was otherwise happy. It was such a sad thing to go away from that town and think of. And all the worry of the family, and her possible suffering. I do still hope she is alive, but I looked again at the footage of the guy in Heworth Place the other night. Again, forgive me if I'm reiterating what's already been said, but when he hesitates coming back the other way it's noticeable that he has a bag. Is that her rucksack? Also it seems quite full. Whites can be quite bulky, but what if he had removed garments or was removing evidence? The hesitation might also be recognising the person in white going up the street, and perhaps not wanting to be seen by them, or else if not recognisable to them, not wanting them to see her bag, but worn by someone else? Obviously, under that light, it's difficult to tell what the bag is like - but the profile under the lamp looks quite teardropped, like the Karrimor design shown. Also, when he (if it's he - they seem to be wearing wide leg jeans or trousers and have a paunch and have short sandy or brown hair, and be white) goes into Heworth Place, he seems to be wearing blue and red check shirt, worn loose, with a longish dark coat. Quite dark, inconspicuous clothing, but not so concealing as it would appear secretive. If this guy is a perpetrator of a crime, it looks like it might have been spontaneous - a row, or something unplanned which happened after a build-up. A premeditated killer would have surely worn a cover-up, as gangsters have done near where I live. To pass muster, perhaps he is known to the area, so had to avoid people who knew CL. But who knows? Perhaps he is an innocent bystander. That image of him waiting for the guy in white to pass though is branded onto my mind. It's so unusual, so suspicious, it looks like some sort of concealment is going on. So I wondered if it was possibly the bag. And if the baggier clothing was to conceal something under a coat or in a pocket. A weapon? Sorry if this is hard to read. I've been scratching my head over this for days in hope of connecting the evidence. I am so spooked by anyone disappearing, but just a woman going about her daily life disappearing like this with no trace and someone getting away with it makes me so worried. Women are not being kept safe from harm because some men are allowed to get away with so much for too long. If we had more controls over men's behaviour, and intervened early in the development of predatory behaviours, I don't think we would see as much tragedy as this happen.

As alley man appears to have his coat fastened up, I understand that you may have been able to see the collar of this "Blue and Red check shirt" but how would you know that it was worn loosely?
Also, the image quality is not good. Police will have better quality and enhanced cctv footage.

Would they not have put out a description such as yours to make it easier to locate alley man?
Are you able to screenshot the part of cctv that demonstrates the blue and red shirt being worn loosely?

 

[Woodburnbay]

Thank you - good research. Would you be able to provide your best links to the 1.bus cctv 2.alleyman morning, 3.Alleyman evening - so we are all working off the same hymn sheet?
Let’s give them an unforgettable Christmas !

Evening CCTV:

Morning CCTV:
claudia lawrence alleyman cctv

 

[Blonderabbit]

Evening CCTV:

Morning CCTV:
claudia lawrence alleyman cctv

Thank you.- much appreciated

 

[Popejohn3]

Is the white man the same man we see in other clips ( cost cutter?) looking left and possibly carrying a news paper ?
The police should know ( clear picture) who he is ?
Do they know ?
If not then he is probably not local just like dark alleyway man !

 

[Blonderabbit]

Is the white man the same man we see in other clips ( cost cutter?) looking left and possibly carrying a news paper ?
The police should know ( clear picture) who he is ?
Do they know ?
If not then he is probably not local just like dark alleyway man !

Good afternoon pj3 - is it fair to say your reasoning for thinking alleywayman is not local is because the police haven’t identified him?
Thank you

 

[Becci]

I might be slow off the mark here but i just noticed another person haha

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Hi good morning ! You seem sure - can you screen shot your evidence and provide a source to show he has hair - I’d be most grateful

I can't be bothered to find the footage as I'm tired - but you see his hair as he passes under the streetlamp in the CCTV footage on Heworth Place - there is also the detail of him being [quite pale] white in ethnicity and I'd say in that tonality that he has either brown or light hair dyed ash brown, slightly wavy, and the shirt id check in red and blue (no white) - there appear to be either wide leg trousers or baggy bootleg jeans, and the long [black] jacket goes (from memory, sorry if I"m not right in all the detail) to beyond the hip. The baggy clothing suggests perhaps concealment (of a weapon?) or of identity or build(?). But the fact that he is moseying about at night with no hood on or hat or concealment and his gait suggests he might be drunk. He seems of average height (maybe about 5 ft 9 in?, if we go by the height of the garden wall nearby? though I've never been there) - and he's old enought to have a paunch and wear black shoes with possibly dark blue jeans. He may be completely innocent, a literal bystander who just lives in the area. Who knows? Perhaps he paused as he saw person in white jacket and had separate history there. The hypothese could go on forever, so partial is our knowledge. I also wonder about CL being an informant or else having some knowledge somebody wanted to silence, and then perhaps something went badly wrong? Did the guy in Heworth Place know the person in white jacket? Or was it, as I originally suggested, worry about being seen/being seen with possibly CL's bag? Sorry if I've got anything wrong in the detail - I've only read a few news articles, watched a few interviews and looked at footage on here and elsewhere. My concern is largely how a woman can go missing, never be found and somehow no-one is answerable. Today's court trial of Jordan McSweeney is possibly a different sort of offence. But I don't know, maybe there aren't types really. Maybe each situation is uniquely horrific and all symptomatic of horrendous male mental health resulting in a woman's death way too often. It troubles me greatly and I've had so many close things myself I seek only to understand what happened and how these things happen and people escape discovery when we have so much surveillance. I just find it extra troubling when the officer in charge said he felt people who knew CL and knew soemthing had closed ranks. I odn't know how true that is, but it's possibly a sign of drugs or some sort of vice gang.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

The only part of your theory that doesn't work is this:

You are referring to Alleyman hesitating and so you must be referring to the evening cctv and not the morning cctv.

Claudia was still alive in the evening cctv as she spoke to her parents c 1 hour later.

How do we know? She could have died that night. Some of her stuff is missing - was that a premise to find out where she lived? Had a contact given someone her number, and then went back later, perhaps that time to the front door?