UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #19

  • #641
We know the text messages on Claudia's phone. None of them suggested she was meeting someone that night.

I've quoted your own post, Alpha, and it is convoluted and statistically highly unlikely. It's not supported by any evidence either, e.g. sighting of people turning up? No, not at all. CCTV shows a fella walking down the street where there are various properties and he wasn't out of sight long enough to reach Claudia's back door and knock on it.

The simple answer is often the most boring and least entertaining but it's also more often than not how it turns out.

Murderers of women aren't criminal masterminds who leave no evidence behind after a clean up operation, cover up, ferrying bodies around in the night and a 15 years wall of collective silence. Sometimes they just get lucky in that nobody turned the corner at the right time.
But we dont know the text messages on Claudias phone? We only know the ones police have divulged I am sure there is tons of evidence we are not privy to as in all unsolved cases
Anyone could have walked the back alley from the NH car park knocked the back door and would not show on CCTV as there was none in the alleyway or the car park
 
  • #642
It was fairly early on in the investigation . The men weren,t named obviously. but I remember it being in a police statement and most likely what changed the focus of the investigation from early morning abduction to looking at Claudias private life

It's your claim. The supporting source and details would be useful.
 
  • #643
But we dont know the text messages on Claudias phone? We only know the ones police have divulged I am sure there is tons of evidence we are not privy to as in all unsolved cases

This is the monumental flaw in the NH4 and assorted convoluted theories: when all else fails appeal to the polis knowing something that nobody else has ever seen. Not only is it an appeal to magic, it is also demonstrably false in that the police put all of their evidence in front of the CPS and the CPS weren't impressed. It follows that this supposed magic information somewhere doesn't amount to much.

Anyone could have walked the back alley from the NH car park knocked the back door and would not show on CCTV as there was none in the alleyway or the car park

They could but there's no relevance is there? A bit like saying anybody could have knocked on the front door at 2 in the morning while everyone else was in bed. Aye, possible, but there's no evidence for it.
 
  • #644
  • #645
This is the monumental flaw in the NH4 and assorted convoluted theories: when all else fails appeal to the polis knowing something that nobody else has ever seen. Not only is it an appeal to magic, it is also demonstrably false in that the police put all of their evidence in front of the CPS and the CPS weren't impressed. It follows that this supposed magic information somewhere doesn't amount to much.



They could but there's no relevance is there? A bit like saying anybody could have knocked on the front door at 2 in the morning while everyone else was in bed. Aye, possible, but there's no evidence for it.
I have not said that it is anything to do with the NH 4 have I ?
Just because we have not seen the police evidence doesnt mean there isnt any?
I believe something happened the night before simple. Who is responsible I havent a clue
 
  • #646
I have not said that it is anything to do with the NH 4 have I ?

Dunno. Didn't you mention somebody coming from the Nags Head car park?

Just because we have not seen the police evidence doesnt mean there isnt any?

We do know that the police have no evidence that can get the NH4, nor anybody else for that matter, into a court of law. We know this because they arrested various people and couldn't build a decent case around any of them. In sum, they don't have evidence of any worth. That's demonstrable.

I believe something happened the night before simple.

Not supported by the evidence.

Who is responsible I havent a clue

Fair enough. Aye, much of this is guesswork, which I suppose it will be in the vast majority of cases involving no body.
 
  • #647
Meanwhile, journalists were finding the story hard to tell. For a privately-educated daughter of a country solicitor Claudia had some unusual acquaintances and this remains the only missing person case where I've been warned off or threatened - not once, but twice.

It would be interesting to hear the specifics of this supposed 'warning off'. Was he getting on someone's nerves? Was he on private property and was told to leave before he'd have a problem he didn't need in his life?

I can tell you now that in the event a reporter kept getting on people's nerves 'round here, he'd be 'warned off'.

The reporter inadvertently gives away his personal bias in that very statement you've quoted. I reckon you can take it that Claudia had some working class mates (the horrror!) who had zero criminal convictions.
 
  • #648
Dunno. Didn't you mention somebody coming from the Nags Head car park?



We do know that the police have no evidence that can get the NH4, nor anybody else for that matter, into a court of law. We know this because they arrested various people and couldn't build a decent case around any of them. In sum, they don't have evidence of any worth. That's demonstrable.



Not supported by the evidence.



Fair enough. Aye, much of this is guesswork, which I suppose it will be in the vast majority of cases involving no body.
I said that the alley way at the back of Claudias house used to lead straight to the NH car park .
I believe it has been closed off now. So a route to the back of Claudias house unseen by anyone and no CCTV.
Claudia could have left the house that way too
As far as I know there is no evidence to prove the night before or walk to work theories so guess work and theories is all we have
 
  • #649
I do think it was someone that Claudia knew. It needs to be someone who was able to dispose of her body and/or belongings around about lunchtime the day she went missing. So, perhaps someone on their lunch break? which means that Claudia was disposed of closeby (if its my prime suspect).

Aye, the fact that the phone was switched off at dinnertime and not earlier in the morning, there's an important reason for that.

I've thought similar in that maybe it was somebody on their dinner break, but what job would mean your first break after starting work was dinnertime?
 
  • #650
Everything has gone really quiet of late, has anyone else noticed that? Like there appeared to be a whole influx of new information or interest in the Claudia case and a lot of newspaper stories about it recently and then all of a sudden it’s just gone back to normal again.
 
  • #651
Everything has gone really quiet of late, has anyone else noticed that? Like there appeared to be a whole influx of new information or interest in the Claudia case and a lot of newspaper stories about it recently and then all of a sudden it’s just gone back to normal again.
Unfortunately, like many cold cases, it's just a whole lot of nothing. Unless they find Claudia's body or someone comes out the woodwork to confess to her whereabouts, nothing's going to shift the dial.
 
  • #652
Unfortunately, like many cold cases, it's just a whole lot of nothing. Unless they find Claudia's body or someone comes out the woodwork to confess to her whereabouts, nothing's going to shift the dial.
Bit of a joke really, I think a lot of things possibly get peoples hopes up and ultimately nothing really happens, although I appreciate peoples efforts to try.

I just feel very sorry for her Mum
 
  • #653
Aye, the fact that the phone was switched off at dinnertime and not earlier in the morning, there's an important reason for that.

I've thought similar in that maybe it was somebody on their dinner break, but what job would mean your first break after starting work was dinnertime?
First long break…. And maybe didn’t think about phone until looking through bag/jacket/pockets?
 
  • #654
First long break

Not convinced with this. It would be fair to assume that a 10/15 minute break would probably be sufficient to get to a car in a work car park and turn the phone off.

And maybe didn’t think about phone until looking through bag/jacket/pockets?

Maybe. But, I'd say there is significant reason that made it in the murderer's interests to turn the phone off at that time and not hours earlier, i.e. a risk materialised at that time that wasn't in place in the preceding hours.

Let's say Claudia's phone was in a locked car in a work car park, well, it's not a risk because nobody is going to walk past, hear an unanswered mobile and think: I'm gonna have to break into this car because that's probably a murdered woman's phone going unanswered and there could well be a body in the car also. It's not really a risk and a murderer would have known that.

You could come up with 100 reasons within half an hour as to why that phone needed to be turned off at that time but it wasn't a problem to leave it turned on before then, some ideas for a start:

1) The phone was turned off at the time when Claudia's body was being buried (along with possessions). In the event you have a phone in your pocket and you don't answer it, nobody walking past is going to care and you have control over who sees that phone. Upon burying the phone with a body and leaving the area, you have no control over who would stumble upon a ringing phone and start digging. Local man, knew the area well, on an hour dinner break, secluded location about 20 minutes away. You'd probably say that burying a body in broad daylight is a risk, but then so is leaving a body in your car until you can dispose of it, particularly if you have a wife/family and the car keys are lying around in the house. Who knows, maybe the murderer thought it was expedient to get rid of a body as soon as possible.

2) The murderer was leaving York and was well aware that mobiles can be tracked within reason.

3) Claudia's phone was very close to somebody who wasn't involved in the murder but had reason to ring Claudia and could do at any time, e.g. the murderer put Claudia's possessions in his work bag. Then again, you'd assume that he could get to that bag and turn off the phone before a dinner break.

4) Claudia was murdered at dinnertime. She voluntarily or involuntarily went with someone, somewhere instead of work.

5) The phone was found by somebody not connected to the murder. He or she picked it up and later thought this is useless to me, I'll turn it off and hoy it away. Seems unlikely to me, why not just hoy it away.

6) The murderer was going to a place where somebody would care about a mobile phone ringing on his person, e.g. a wife who knew he didn't have a phone and would want to know why a phone was ringing in his pocket.

As said, you/I/anyone else could come up with all sorts of ideas here, but I'd say it really is significant in terms of why 12.10 was a good idea to turn the phone off (and not earlier).
 
  • #655
  • #656
Not convinced with this. It would be fair to assume that a 10/15 minute break would probably be sufficient to get to a car in a work car park and turn the phone off.



Maybe. But, I'd say there is significant reason that made it in the murderer's interests to turn the phone off at that time and not hours earlier, i.e. a risk materialised at that time that wasn't in place in the preceding hours.

Let's say Claudia's phone was in a locked car in a work car park, well, it's not a risk because nobody is going to walk past, hear an unanswered mobile and think: I'm gonna have to break into this car because that's probably a murdered woman's phone going unanswered and there could well be a body in the car also. It's not really a risk and a murderer would have known that.

You could come up with 100 reasons within half an hour as to why that phone needed to be turned off at that time but it wasn't a problem to leave it turned on before then, some ideas for a start:

1) The phone was turned off at the time when Claudia's body was being buried (along with possessions). In the event you have a phone in your pocket and you don't answer it, nobody walking past is going to care and you have control over who sees that phone. Upon burying the phone with a body and leaving the area, you have no control over who would stumble upon a ringing phone and start digging. Local man, knew the area well, on an hour dinner break, secluded location about 20 minutes away. You'd probably say that burying a body in broad daylight is a risk, but then so is leaving a body in your car until you can dispose of it, particularly if you have a wife/family and the car keys are lying around in the house. Who knows, maybe the murderer thought it was expedient to get rid of a body as soon as possible.

2) The murderer was leaving York and was well aware that mobiles can be tracked within reason.

3) Claudia's phone was very close to somebody who wasn't involved in the murder but had reason to ring Claudia and could do at any time, e.g. the murderer put Claudia's possessions in his work bag. Then again, you'd assume that he could get to that bag and turn off the phone before a dinner break.

4) Claudia was murdered at dinnertime. She voluntarily or involuntarily went with someone, somewhere instead of work.

5) The phone was found by somebody not connected to the murder. He or she picked it up and later thought this is useless to me, I'll turn it off and hoy it away. Seems unlikely to me, why not just hoy it away.

6) The murderer was going to a place where somebody would care about a mobile phone ringing on his person, e.g. a wife who knew he didn't have a phone and would want to know why a phone was ringing in his pocket.

As said, you/I/anyone else could come up with all sorts of ideas here, but I'd say it really is significant in terms of why 12.10 was a good idea to turn the phone off (and not earlier).
Wow and you say other theories are wild. Someone commits murder in the morning on the way to work, digs a grave in their lunch hour . Crazy!!
 
  • #657
I found this old article. It has quite a bit of info in it, but I am wondering abit the mis match of info between male vs female. Thoughts?

Yes interesting article which mentions what I said in my earlier post about multiple married men and the 2 men who voluntarily went to the police station when Claudia went missing as they were worried about the police questioning them and their wives finding out
Also the car being crushed which ties in with my theory
 
  • #658
I found this old article. It has quite a bit of info in it, but I am wondering abit the mis match of info between male vs female. Thoughts?


Not sure what you mean by the female/male thing Niky, but feel free to elaborate.

I read this article years back and it's community gossip with the exception of Mrs Horwell. No confirmed sources at all. It wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in terms of being evidence of anything.

An example of such community gossip and unsubstantiated sources in this article is the "close friend of Mr Horwell" who supposedly stated: "You speak to anyone in York, Claudia goes for married men. And they aren’t young men. They’re all in their 40s or 50s and they aren’t exactly hard-up. None of the wives like her."

I'm confident that upwards of 99% of people in York had no idea that Claudia Lawrence existed. The supposed source could quite conceivably be talking out of his arse.

Give The Mail its due though: they present the case for Claudia being a run-of-the-mill lass in this article, with people who knew her, as opposed to unnamed sources, stating she was not promiscuous. And, this is the same newspaper that stated Claudia was involved with 12 men in 5 years (hardly outrageous for a single lass), and during the 10 years prior to that she had 1 long term boyfriend. What's that? 13 men in 15 years? Hardly pushing the boat out when it comes to rampaging 'round York eating any man that gets in her way.
 
  • #659
It has been a long time since I posted on WS, and poor Claudia's thread was always locked at that time so I could never comment.

Back around 2005-2008 my sister lived very close to where Claudia lived. She moved about one year before Claudia went missing, and never knew Claudia. But when I would visit we would walk around the area; Melrosegate, East Parade and other important locations became well known to me.

Things might be different now, but back in 2008 it was always VERY quiet upto about 7:00am. Few people, little traffic. I find it so easy to believe Claudia could have been picked up/abducted on the way to work without anyone *seeing* anything. But. The streets were so quiet at 5:00-6:00am that any kind of yelling or screaming would have been noticed IMO.

I think it's virtually impossible that anything happened at Claudia's house given the lack of forensic evidence. My feeling has always been that she either left voluntarily the previous night or in the morning. What happened from there is anyone's guess.
 
  • #660
Things might be different now, but back in 2008 it was always VERY quiet upto about 7:00am. Few people, little traffic.

That doesn't come as a surprise. It was described as a busy route in the evening, but how many jobs/careers/organisations are there that have people travelling between 5 and 6?

I find it so easy to believe Claudia could have been picked up/abducted on the way to work without anyone *seeing* anything.

People tend to think that it cannot happen, somebody would have seen something, but it does: Crimewatch was full of these incidents. Part of the reason I reckon, is that we know a murder took place and so we subconsciously assume that everybody was vigilant and looking around to see what was going on. They won't have been unless they had reason to take notice. In the event Claudia accepted a lift and got into a car, it probably wouldn't have registered with a passing motorist.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
107
Guests online
1,400
Total visitors
1,507

Forum statistics

Threads
632,359
Messages
18,625,269
Members
243,109
Latest member
cdevita26
Back
Top