GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Yellowbelly]

www.thelawpages.com

View attachment 593775

He spoke for three hours yesterday, and he's still going.

Can judges intervene if defendants try to filibuster trials?

 

[Alyce]

He spoke for three hours yesterday, and he's still going.

Can judges intervene if defendants try to filibuster trials?

I think it's a fine balance between keeping the defendant on track versus making sure he / she is given the opportunity to say their piece - if only to ensure there is no appeal down the line with the accused complaining about not being allowed a fair trial.

 

[Alyce]

and having said that..... he has, finally, finished. Rough total was 4.5 hours




www.thelawpages.com

 

[jackal67]

Gordon persisted: “After 51 days of living with little food … there is very substantial body fat on her. You can see the size, the girth, she is not a small woman at that time. It is relevant to the case.”


It sounds as if he is describing an animal ready for market.

So he is only talking about the 2 of them! Who cares if THEY were warm. Why hasnt he described how they prepared Victoria for winter camping?

 

[jackal67]

And if CM was living 51 days with little food how was she making milk for Victoria?

JMO MOO

Yes exactly my thoughts. Any juror would surely have the same question. Everything he says is helping the prosecution in my opinion

 

[Alyce]

So he is only talking about the 2 of them! Who cares if THEY were warm. Why hasnt he described how they prepared Victoria for winter camping?

As always - it's all about them.
Let's hope the Jury keep baby Victoria in the forefront of their minds.

 

[jackal67]

Victoria died on the second night in the tent.
They bought the tent in London on 7th January.
They arrived in Newhaven around 5am on the 8th.
Victoria died on the 9th or 10th, when she was 16 or 17 days old.
CM went to the petrol station at around 6.30am on the 12th.
They were arrested on 27th February. The date 51 days before that is 7th January. So CM was breastfeeding for three of those days.

How do you know the exact date Victoria died ? No one knows this because her body was decomposed in a bag of rubbish making it impossible to ascertain her date of birth or death??

 

[Alyce]

The prosecution has claimed Victoria was likely to have died from hypothermia in cold conditions in the tent or was smothered.

Gordon denied it, telling jurors that at the time they were in a state of "crisis" and had exercised "parental judgment".

"It may not be ideal. If the baby was left outside in cold conditions then that would be a no-brainer," he said.

Constance Marten's partner denies responsibility for death of their baby

The partner of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten has denied responsibility...

hellorayo.co.uk

BBM a huge understatement - IMO of course

 

[Nikynoo]

How do you know the exact date Victoria died ? No one knows this because her body was decomposed in a bag of rubbish making it impossible to ascertain her date of birth or death??

I seem to recall from the first trial that the pathologist ascertained that by the time she had been found, Victoria had been deceased 4-6 weeks. You may recall at the first trial, that the prosecutions case was that the baby was alive for a substantial period of time. Marten maintained that baby died on the 9th and IMO, it would appear that for this trial, the prosecution has accepted that Victoria died on or very near the 9th January.

ETA link Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: 'Unlikely' baby died of hypothermia, trial hears
There are several news articles in March last year.

 

[Alyce]

Gordon denied conditions were “damp and wet” in the tent and insisted the baby was always kept “skin to skin (1 )

I say the baby passed due to unintended circumstances. I say the parents had a difficult time and there is an aspect of mental challenge going on here. Is the solution to send them to a cell?”

Gordon, who was convicted of raping a woman in the United States when he was aged 14, told jurors he should be judged for who he is now, saying: “There is always two sides to every coin.”

He said there was “no way around” his criminal convictions, but pointed out “racial challenges” in the US system.

Gordon added: “What happened when I was a child is questionable but that was many, many years ago.”

Constance Marten’s partner tells court ‘no laws on how to raise your children’

The partner of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten has denied responsibility for the death of their baby, telling jurors: “There are no laws in regard to how you should raise your children.”

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

BBM ( 1 ) I thought Victoria was stuffed inside CM's jacket - that's hardly skin to skin as might happen in a warm bedroom in a normal house environment

 

[GreekGal]

Gordon denied conditions were “damp and wet” in the tent and insisted the baby was always kept “skin to skin (1 )

I say the baby passed due to unintended circumstances. I say the parents had a difficult time and there is an aspect of mental challenge going on here. Is the solution to send them to a cell?”

Gordon, who was convicted of raping a woman in the United States when he was aged 14, told jurors he should be judged for who he is now, saying: “There is always two sides to every coin.”

He said there was “no way around” his criminal convictions, but pointed out “racial challenges” in the US system.

Gordon added: “What happened when I was a child is questionable but that was many, many years ago.”

Constance Marten’s partner tells court ‘no laws on how to raise your children’

The partner of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten has denied responsibility for the death of their baby, telling jurors: “There are no laws in regard to how you should raise your children.”

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

BBM ( 1 ) I thought Victoria was stuffed inside CM's jacket - that's hardly skin to skin as might happen in a warm bedroom in a normal house environment

And whether inside or outside, the baby would have been breathing in very damp air at all times into her yet undeveloped lungs and perfect conditions for developing pneumonia.

 

[Skigh]

It seems strange that in very warm hospital, babies are put in hats ,mittens and booties and often wrapped in a blanket when being held if all they need to keep warm is being next to their mother.

 

[Skigh]

I seem to recall from the first trial that the pathologist ascertained that by the time she had been found, Victoria had been deceased 4-6 weeks. You may recall at the first trial, that the prosecutions case was that the baby was alive for a substantial period of time. Marten maintained that baby died on the 9th and IMO, it would appear that for this trial, the prosecution has accepted that Victoria died on or very near the 9th January.

I cannot see Victoria being able to survive for long in the conditions they were subjecting her to.

 

[Nikynoo]

It seems strange that in very warm hospital, babies are put in hats ,mittens and booties and often wrapped in a blanket when being held if all they need to keep warm is being next to their mother.

They are shortly after birth, because of the difference in temperature (in the womb vs outside of the womb). Drugs given during labour can also affect the babies temperature.

 

[jackal67]

Gordon denied conditions were “damp and wet” in the tent and insisted the baby was always kept “skin to skin (1 )

I say the baby passed due to unintended circumstances. I say the parents had a difficult time and there is an aspect of mental challenge going on here. Is the solution to send them to a cell?”

Gordon, who was convicted of raping a woman in the United States when he was aged 14, told jurors he should be judged for who he is now, saying: “There is always two sides to every coin.”

He said there was “no way around” his criminal convictions, but pointed out “racial challenges” in the US system.

Gordon added: “What happened when I was a child is questionable but that was many, many years ago.”

Constance Marten’s partner tells court ‘no laws on how to raise your children’

The partner of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten has denied responsibility for the death of their baby, telling jurors: “There are no laws in regard to how you should raise your children.”

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

BBM ( 1 ) I thought Victoria was stuffed inside CM's jacket - that's hardly skin to skin as might happen in a warm bedroom in a normal house environment

There are no laws around the way parents should raise their children ???
Well yes there are actually. The children act for one. Why doesnt he tell us exactly why their 4 children were removed if they did nothing wrong? Instead of just saying they were stolen?

 

[jackal67]

I cannot see Victoria being able to survive for long in the conditions they were subjecting her to.

And of course the conditions she suffered before they even set up the tent. Being dragged round the country ,dumped into a totally unsuitable pushchair ,stuffed inside a coat and possibly a bag for life, no warm clothing probably inadequate milk supply, no sanitation or hygeine. Its a wonder she survived as long as she did without the tent episode!! MOO

 

[Skigh]

And of course the conditions she suffered before they even set up the tent. Being dragged round the country ,dumped into a totally unsuitable pushchair ,stuffed inside a coat and possibly a bag for life, no warm clothing probably inadequate milk supply, no sanitation or hygeine. Its a wonder she survived as long as she did without the tent episode!! MOO

Quite.

 

[Carriep]

Is MG's partner doing her closing speech for herself, or is she represented?

 

[Carriep]

Here's a much fuller report on MG's closing speech, again cited to the Press Association but with much more in it. (The headline and the lede refer to MG as "CM's partner" and "The partner of wealthy aristocrat CM", but this is par for the course in Britain and it's not impossible that the Victorian era may end some time in the future.)

Constance Marten’s partner tells court ‘no laws on how to raise your children’

Marten and Mark Gordon have denied the gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria and causing or allowing her death in 2023.

www.northwichguardian.co.uk