UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Lolabear]

Whilst there may be some mental inbalance ( which I am sure both of the accused will want to maximise to the fullest for their advantage ) I tend to feel the main reason for their behaviour is covered in Mr Little's description earlier today.

reckless, utterly selfish, callous, cruel, arrogant and ultimately grossly negligent

This is my current belief too. I wonder why the previous children were removed...if they were reckless and negligent to them or just because he's a sex offender

 

[JTT]

If she was carrying round a deceased baby for a few weeks the decomposition would be awful. If that sighting of her with a wobbly headed baby was them then I think the baby was probably born later than Xmas eve. By the middle of February the body would be in a mess and stink to high heaven. But why lie about the date of birth? All very bizzare. They got taxis in this time frame...the smell from the baby if deceased would be noticable to a driver surely

I think the last taxi they are said to have been in was on 8 January in Newhaven. A point 5-7 days after the car fire, which is when CM said Victoria died, would be 10-12 January.

She may have told the police where her daughter was when she died. Or she may not have. AFAIK that hasn't been in the extracts (by media) from the extracts (by the prosecutor) from the interview transcript.

The body could have been outside in the cold, or perhaps in an unheated structure the same temperature as the outside, most or all the time.
The 19 February wobbly head sighting could have been from afar. Or a witness making a mistake. Or CM carrying a baby-shaped doll or bundle - not unknown after the death of a baby.
The prosecutor said they smelled "very unpleasant" when they were arrested.

 

[Becky53]

Mr Little has told the jury that Marten and Gordon booked a holiday cottage in Northumberland on December 20, 2022.

The booking was made until Boxing Day 2022.

Mr Little said: "The defendants left the property in something of a hurry. When the owners of the property checked the property on 28th December 2022 it was in something of a state.

"There was food debris, rubbish and urine stains noticeable. However, the defendants had washed the bedding and sheets from the master bedroom, which were found, laundered, in the washing machine." BBM

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial at the Old Bailey

Live updates from the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon accused of gross negligence manslaughter

www.theargus.co.uk

In all honesty I think the baby was born sometime at the holiday cottage and the bedding was washed to conceal the birth there.

jmo

 

[JTT]

I wonder whether the crown will accept that CM fell asleep on top of Victoria and that's what caused her death, and say the principal reason she had had so little sleep was that they were in the cold and on the run, which resulted only from a criminally negligent and cruel decision on her and MG's part - which may turn out to be somewhat shaky grounds for a conviction for a crime that carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment - or whether they will assert there was some other cause of death.

I hope no SS are in the courtroom who may be called as witnesses.

If (big Spartan if) the cited grounds for <modsnip - no such order> were that dad had a rape conviction from 30 years before when he was 14 and mum hadn't "followed advice" to stop seeing him, or she had promised to and then continued to see him on the quiet, showing how selfish, unobjective, dishonest, etc. she was, or even if the grounds were different, I could imagine the jury wanting to hear from the SS in the witness box in order to understand better why these particular two individuals chose their evasive course of action after CM became pregnant.

 

[JTT]

Mr Little has told the jury that Marten and Gordon booked a holiday cottage in Northumberland on December 20, 2022.

The booking was made until Boxing Day 2022.

Mr Little said: "The defendants left the property in something of a hurry. When the owners of the property checked the property on 28th December 2022 it was in something of a state.

"There was food debris, rubbish and urine stains noticeable. However, the defendants had washed the bedding and sheets from the master bedroom, which were found, laundered, in the washing machine." BBM

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial at the Old Bailey

Live updates from the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon accused of gross negligence manslaughter

www.theargus.co.uk

In all honesty I think the baby was born sometime at the holiday cottage and the bedding was washed to conceal the birth there.

jmo

Agreed they may not have wanted the owner or letting agent to know she'd given birth there. So throw the sheets in the washing machine and put them on at 90 degrees before leaving. That isn't a lot of support for the charges though, and doesn't even lead inexorably to ending up in a tent.

Was it totally and utterly unreasonable, to a point of criminal and cruel negligence, for the defendants to go on the run from the SS who they knew would seize the baby, and to stay relentlessly on the run even once they'd become homeless and the temperature had dropped? "That, members of the jury, is a matter for you to decide."

I'll be following tomorrow's reports on more of the prosecution opening speech closely, but at the moment it seems the crown may have a bit of an evidence shortage.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Today's podcast just dropped, haven't listened to it yet

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

 

[Mirabel091]

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then.

She comes from a privileged background and may still have had some of those connections at the time of fleeing. Could she have been hoping to call in a favour?

 

[dotr]

Complete speculation, wondering if the couple might have had some kind of hoarding issue in the past?

 

[nb93x]

Thank you. What are your thoughts on this case?

I find it really interesting and curious to know more about previous children that have been removed. I feel they were evading services of the inevitable, essentially they may have been told that the local authority were looking to issue proceedings on birth which is why they fled. Ultimately by not working with services, it’s led to this poor baby losing their life. It’s just utterly heartbreaking.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

To judge from how bro and mum went to the Old Bailey today, it seems they expected CM to be in court.

Can only but speculate as to their reasons but if I were them, I'd be there for the sake of the life of that child and to find out the truth - she was their grandchild / niece, after all. I'm sure they're none the wiser to what really happened than any of us.

JMO MOO

 

[wizardbizzoom]

I've been following this case closely and it's truly heartbreaking. The details emerging about Constance Marten's past, especially her time with the Nigerian cult, are disturbing. It seems like this experience had a profound effect on her life. The reports of her being forced to undergo extreme rituals and the subsequent social exile she

Regarding the case itself, it's a stark reminder of the complexities involved in criminal investigations, especially when it involves sensitive issues like the wellbeing of a newborn. The situation is made even more complicated by the legal considerations, such as ensuring a fair trial and adhering to the sub judice rules mentioned by the admin.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Jesus - this is making horrific reading.
JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Would this be possible in a case where a parent was a convicted sex offender?

I never thought I'd type these words... but him being a juvenile sex offender seems to be the very least of their issues!

JMO MOO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I'm gonna say the words "much of it's life before it died" are heavy hitting and no barrister would speak them unless there is substantial evidence. A journalist should think twice before reporting something that heavy hitting unless substantiated.

I wish they would say 'her' life.

JMO MOO

I wish that too. Everytime I read the word 'it' in the reprting of the prosecutors speech it made me cringe. She was a human being not an it, and his constant referring to her as 'it' does absolutely nothing to humanise her to the jury.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wish that too. Everytime I read the word 'it' in the reprting of the prosecutors speech it made me cringe. She was a human being not an it, and his constant referring to her as 'it' does absolutely nothing to humanise her to the jury.

I wonder if there's been a legal agreement? 'The baby' shall always be referred to as 'it' and not 'her'? Can there even BE such a thing? Is it because the baby's sex could not be determined when found and the terminology just stuck?

Anyone would think the prosecution don't want to win us over to the point of view that this is about a tiny little baby girl losing her entire life.

JMO MOO

 

[rockthecasbah]

She comes from a privileged background and may still have had some of those connections at the time of fleeing. Could she have been hoping to call in a favour?

Good theory. Or squatting.

 

[JTT]

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then.

(Hypothetical, and may possibly not be similar to what the position was with these two people, but addressing your question): picture yourself and partner with a few thousand pounds in cash on you, thought you were off the radar, with a plan of finding accommodation that would at least give you some stability for say 2-3 months, either by finding an AirBnB or if you can't sort out a secure way of paying the money then by going to the right kind of area, looking for "Flat to Rent" cards or if necessary, asking around, and paying the deposit and the rent in cash. (Such areas are many.) Then wham, you are on all the front pages, you've been "sighted" here and there, there are "pleas" for you to "turn yourselves in". You might well consider going rough for a few weeks, or even months, spending as little money as possible, waiting until you're not such a big concern in the media, and then - as an alternative to making an escape attempt at a port - returning to Plan A and finding a flat by the above-mentioned method.

 

[JTT]

Good theory. Or squatting.

There's not much squatting left nowadays, now that it's been criminalised.

Another option would be MG could work off the cards for a landlord in lieu of paying rent, such as in a restaurant maybe, while CM looked after their baby in the flat, or in a room, perhaps in a "House of Multiple Occupation". There's a huge "informal" underbelly in British society.

(^ Total utter speculation. Just saying this may have been an option.)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There's not much squatting left nowadays, now that it's been criminalised.

Another option would be MG could work off the cards for a landlord in lieu of paying rent, such as in a restaurant maybe, while CM looked after their baby in the flat, or in a room, perhaps in a "House of Multiple Occupation". There's a huge "informal" underbelly in British society.

(^ Total utter speculation. Just saying this may have been an option.)

This seems very unlikely - the type of labour you're speaking as to is really filled with desperate young working age men who are fit, healthy, and single. They share rooms and bunk.

It's hard to rent a place nowadays. Landlords are putting such scrutiny in place, they want job references, previous landlord references, up front payments, bank transfers only, copies of passports, and guarantors.

I guess there's the 'spare room' type accommodation where a greedy or unscrupulous landlord would welcome an incoming ton of cash but really with a tiny baby in tow? Most would baulk at that.

I think CM and MG were in a hopeless situation and to be generous, were / are possibly so incredibly disaffected that they wouldn't turn to any form of authority even to the cost of their own or their child's life. Sadly, they took that stance of their own adult selves and applied it to the most vulnerable being in existence - a newborn baby.

JMO MOO

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I agree. I think that there are mental health issues is abundantly clear. But the way she comes across in that transcript makes her sound stupid or very young imho, and I think we do know that she's neither of those.

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then. Given a psychiatric assessment has apparently found her fit to stand trial, I'm just surprised by how tenuous her grasp on reality appears to be in that interview.

I am not trying to make excuses for anyone, but CM was likely in a very traumatic place when she gave that interview. I think she was being candid and believed what she did was 'right.'
Like I said, I am not making excuses, I just think the context needs to be clearer.