GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Ahhhh sorry Cottonweaver. I should of explained more fully.
For example. If the Doctor they saw for Ellie to get a referral to pin her ears back. Was her regular 'family GP' maybe as he stated it was not a simple procedure as it required the patient to be under general anaesthetic. And maybe the doctor was aware of BB'S and his anger/rage issues. The doc would of told BBC & JG that he will refer Ellie but it may be a while before they heard anything.. but in reality he took his judgement and thought the operation would be an unnecessary procedure as the ears were not deformed .

As medical records go. Doctors. A&E (Emergency Rooms) Hospitals and quite possibly Dentists. Will have access to a patients medical files.
They can all liase with each other.
But bearing in mind. Most Doctors' Surgery's have more than 1 Doctor to cover the practice. Plus you will have a midwife. And Nurses. Plus Surgery Reception Staff. At my surgery I have a huge medicinal order each month. So I call in to get a repeat order. So I'm guessing Staff too may have access. Or it might be limited.

This is the issue..... Unless someone alerts the next person . For example doc alerts SS. SS then make fone call or cold call the home. If they're not let in the home to see. They can't do anything.
There really has to be another ruling put in place like if there's extreme likelihood that a child is in danger then the Police can enter....

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[Gigi-G]

I'm wondering if the new puppy was a bribe to keep Ellie quiet after her broken shoulder. I don't know how long they'd had the puppy but it sounds as if Ellie may have been describing it to the teacher for the first time. Someone who resents looking after children isn't going to enjoy the extra demands of a puppy either.

I'm thinking poor puppy.. no doubt that will get a kick or two if it does something wrong..

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[cottonweaver]

"The court also heard that on June 25, 2013, Ellie had seen a doctor at Benhill and Belmont GP Centre after suffering a bruised nose.

In a written statement to the court, Dr Hazel Bono said: "Ellie had a bruise in the centre of her forehead and a minor graze and brushing across the bridge of her nose and around her left eye under her glasses.

"I was informed by Ellie's father that she had tripped and had fallen forward on the stairs at home, bumping her head on a step and knocking her glasses against her face.

"I was happy for Ellie to return to school having made the appropriate recommendations for monitoring her and recommended paracetamol and an ice pack.

"Ellie appeared quite happy in the presence of her father and was not shy or reluctant to let me see what had happened."

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...taff_raised_concerns_about_repeated_absences/

this tallies with the school's reported absence

 

[Gigi-G]

the doc who was mentioned in the earlier link - October 9 day absence & JG request for a sick note


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/06/ben-butler-trial-jennie-gray-ellie-teachers

DMirror doesn't have much to add today , same as other papers except notes " The court also heard evidence from a succession of GPs who dealt with the Butler family."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tragic-6-year-old-ellie-7912831

I see they still like to play the Victimised card....... there is only ONE victim here. ELLIE!
The next you'll hear is JG and BB Suing the Education Authorities. For deformation of character..

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[Gigi-G]

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...taff_raised_concerns_about_repeated_absences/

this tallies with the school's reported absence

"Oh woe is me"
Comes to mind.... an elaborate performance by 2 self indulgent people.
Still reaping and relishing in the fame of 2012 High Court decision overturned.
How many more times are they gonna play that card!

I see they still like to play the Victimised card....... there is only ONE victim here. ELLIE!
The next you'll hear is JG and BB Suing the Education Authorities. For deformation of character..

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[Gigi-G]

That picture of Ellie. A Still from that video where he's ranting n swearing. Where she's just standing there. Eyes closed. She looks so peaceful.
But the pic really chokes me up.
HOW???!!

how can they do that to her?

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[Gigi-G]

That picture of Ellie. A Still from that video where he's ranting n swearing. Where she's just standing there. Eyes closed. She looks so peaceful.
But the pic really chokes me up.
HOW???!!

how can they do that to her?

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Back in a while phone needs charging. And it's meds time again. Ttfn

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[Schmatz]

Heartbreaking

 

[flutterby]

This is very much MOO and I don't really believe it myself BUT, I was thinking today.

What if he really didn't hurt Ellie when she was a baby? So in his narcissistic mind, it's because of her being born sick that he spend the time in the prison, the years fighting for her, JG having to lie about Issy, the damage to his reputation, etc. He might not have hated her then, but he certainly hates her now he's got her back. That would explain why Issy doesn't seem to have been a target.

My ex-stepfather was a bit narcissistic and that's the way his mind worked, but again this is MOO and I'm not sure. Just putting the idea out there

 

[cottonweaver]

Ahhhh sorry Cottonweaver. I should of explained more fully.
For example. If the Doctor they saw for Ellie to get a referral to pin her ears back. Was her regular 'family GP' maybe as he stated it was not a simple procedure as it required the patient to be under general anaesthetic. And maybe the doctor was aware of BB'S and his anger/rage issues. The doc would of told BBC & JG that he will refer Ellie but it may be a while before they heard anything.. but in reality he took his judgement and thought the operation would be an unnecessary procedure as the ears were not deformed .

As medical records go. Doctors. A&E (Emergency Rooms) Hospitals and quite possibly Dentists. Will have access to a patients medical files.
They can all liase with each other.
But bearing in mind. Most Doctors' Surgery's have more than 1 Doctor to cover the practice. Plus you will have a midwife. And Nurses. Plus Surgery Reception Staff. At my surgery I have a huge medicinal order each month. So I call in to get a repeat order. So I'm guessing Staff too may have access. Or it might be limited.

This is the issue..... Unless someone alerts the next person . For example doc alerts SS. SS then make fone call or cold call the home. If they're not let in the home to see. They can't do anything.
There really has to be another ruling put in place like if there's extreme likelihood that a child is in danger then the Police can enter....

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Thankyou Gigi and I'm also sorry to hear that you have to have a lot of scripts.

Also yes, tx, now I see the logistical problems of a cat and mouse game with social services - it's helpful to know the practical limitations of their powers. ( Also It ties in with the SS having to phone the school, In January, as Tortoise reported as SS did not know who Ellie was with . Maybe JG was giving them the runaround)

Also on BIB - do you think the fact that it is so hard to get a doc appnmt these days possibly allowed them to play this game - booking in to see so many diff docs? ( I just assumed that these days, safeguarding laws are so stringent, that Ellie would have been discussed at a practice meeting . She clearly was at staff school meetings. ) I did expect them to play some kind of game with doc appntmnts - but thought maybe they go to walk-ins but in hindsight, that method is riskier - you can't cultivate "strangers".

It's very sad to see, from my last link above, that Ellie behaved naturally around her father and with a child's innocence still loved her dad and would cover for him. I appreciate that, theoretically, that injury could actually have been genuine - a trip/fall. Sure it's hard to believe, but imagine this scenario:

This guy is devious enough to take her to medics only when she doesn't need one/is healthy/just a bruise and avoid them like the plague when the child needs urgent care. So, on reflection it's a canny way of removing suspicion from one quarter - the doctors."That Mr Butler is such a caring guy, he came in over something & nothing again"
So...... I'm stretching a point here but could the ear surgery also be BB just playing games, he could change his mind later and say no thanks, we won't go for surgery? Feel free to say - I'm completely over-reaching. look what the doc gave her - paracetamol!! he didn't need a visit over a bruise . ( Contrast burns at 6 weeks old., shoulder broken- telephone sick note please Mrs Doctor... )

Whatever the case, the pressure was mounting on JG & BB (inflaming his rage and her angry sense of injustice), especially from the school who were not going to get fobbed off that easily. Presumably SS were also simultaneously contacting them to try and see Ellie too. In the meantime he flips again and it is too little too late.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is very much MOO and I don't really believe it myself BUT, I was thinking today.

What if he really didn't hurt Ellie when she was a baby? So in his narcissistic mind, it's because of her being born sick that he spend the time in the prison, the years fighting for her, JG having to lie about Issy, the damage to his reputation, etc. He might not have hated her then, but he certainly hates her now he's got her back. That would explain why Issy doesn't seem to have been a target.

My ex-stepfather was a bit narcissistic and that's the way his mind worked, but again this is MOO and I'm not sure. Just putting the idea out there

Flutterby, it isn't so far -fetched. It has crossed my mind too. This could be why Ellie bears the brunt. In a deluded way he could even also grumble that she is the cause of him being workless,name dragged through the mud, his life being "crap" - even though a rational person knows that is all nonsense.
Maybe he has also had to give up benefits now they are living together and JG earning rankles even though he actually does want to stay home and do nothing.

This SBS is so controversial, it's like experts at war.
All I can imagine is, when this is over we will get nearer to the truth on that one.

I don't know much about DV against children at all, but OTOH what if Ellie reminds him of JG? Or BB is jealous of JG's "love" for her first-born? Do father bullies like to single out one child and then use the preferential treatment of the others, as further punishment? Control & mind games?
Remember the letter on page 1 or 2, SNovae pasted it up, the phrase " I always put you above everything as I did last week". Maybe there is some jealousy there OR simply as others have posted Ellie is more difficult for a bully - she is older , answers back, has been with the grandparents so long? ( Remember The list)

Who knows? IDK how these twisted "parents" operate but there certainly seems to be more & more in the news - I don't get it at all.
Why does he have such rage anyway?Is it part of a MH problem or is it partly just because he can getaway with it?

 

[cottonweaver]

in case you didn't see it

"“urgent message to head master”.

It read: “I am very unhappy about other points and believe the school have pre-conceived ideas about us as parents and believe the actions of the school reflect this.

Referring to Ellie returning to her family home in 2012 after her parents won custody at the High Court,

she added: "I am also deeply concerned that a head master can comment ‘that was a year ago.’”

“Maybe that is because this is a very unusual case and one the school in fact never dealt with before.

"At the time the High Court Judge ruled this was a ‘miscarriage of justice’ all people were horrified and saddened by what we had been through as a family.
"We believe we are possibly being victimised here and treated differently due to the pre-conceived ideas."

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...taff_raised_concerns_about_repeated_absences/

Blimey - school sec only asked for the sick note, as per the rules.

 

[Gigi-G]

Thankyou Gigi and I'm also sorry to hear that you have to have a lot of scripts.

Also yes, tx, now I see the logistical problems of a cat and mouse game with social services - it's helpful to know the practical limitations of their powers. ( Also It ties in with the SS having to phone the school, In January, as Tortoise reported as SS did not know who Ellie was with . Maybe JG was giving them the runaround)

Also on BIB - do you think the fact that it is so hard to get a doc appnmt these days possibly allowed them to play this game - booking in to see so many diff docs? ( I just assumed that these days, safeguarding laws are so stringent, that Ellie would have been discussed at a practice meeting . She clearly was at staff school meetings. ) I did expect them to play some kind of game with doc appntmnts - but thought maybe they go to walk-ins but in hindsight, that method is riskier - you can't cultivate "strangers".

It's very sad to see, from my last link above, that Ellie behaved naturally around her father and with a child's innocence still loved her dad and would cover for him. I appreciate that, theoretically, that injury could actually have been genuine - a trip/fall. Sure it's hard to believe, but imagine this scenario:

This guy is devious enough to take her to medics only when she doesn't need one/is healthy/just a bruise and avoid them like the plague when the child needs urgent care. So, on reflection it's a canny way of removing suspicion from one quarter - the doctors."That Mr Butler is such a caring guy, he came in over something & nothing again"
So...... I'm stretching a point here but could the ear surgery also be BB just playing games, he could change his mind later and say no thanks, we won't go for surgery? Feel free to say - I'm completely over-reaching.

Whatever the case, the pressure was mounting on JG & BB (inflaming his rage and her angry sense of injustice), especially from the school who were not going to get fobbed off that easily. Presumably SS were also simultaneously contacting them to try and see Ellie too. In the meantime he flips again and it is too little too late.

Bless you. I'm stage 4 COPD. And bronchiectasis (cystic fibrosis but without the enzyme deficiency) I've just been placed on 24/7 oxygen which is marvellous. I can actually go out in the car now. (I have a mobile system too)

Right.. here it goes as far as I know the in's and out's regarding Doctors' I live in a smallish town/village pretty much semi rural. But I'd say there would be at least 20 Doctors' Surgery's. If not more. And most consist of 4 or more Doctors. (In my surgery all 4 Doctors are partners. They bought in to the Surgery)
Others I'm not sure about. Plus you have the pay per visit Private Doctors. Who I'm sure you've heard of BUPA. Well cuz we are in a pretty affluent area. As Prince Charles Princess Anne and their families live around here. I guess we have quite a few private practicing Doctors. But it's up to the person seeing the Doctor. You are entitled to a second opinion if you didn't like or agree with the Doctor you've seen already. So you go see another and so on and so on.
Also you can walk in to an A&E. but you could be waiting there a time. Or another way is to find a doctors nearby or a different area nearby. Say you've just moved here and you can see a doctor.

Now JG said she has moved when she was pregnant with Izzy. So she would be on those Doctors lists. As to the ones she moved from. Do you see what I'm saying... plus the doctors she's with in Sutton.

Many doctors won't blow a whistle becuz they've only seen a few times.
That's how I'm thinking they were playing it. In order to not draw too much attention to Ellie's frequent absence from school.

JMOO.

Thinking outside the box.

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[Gigi-G]

This case has so many twists and turns and it's always heart-rending when children are involve. Especially when the injuries are so violent.
We can only draw on our own conclusions. As we've never felt that kind of rage to a child.

Do we have any profilers on board?
I would love to have BB and JG profiled.

They seem to love the notoriety of fame. As they told a member of staff to "Google us"
So they are aware that they are all over the media. And that he had been exonerated from 2009 Court Judgement.
And that they very publicly fought again for Ellie to return to them. And 1n 2012 she was.
In less than 1 year she was dead.
Now they've even more publicity. And I think JG is back on her legal beagle stance. As everyday at The Old Bailey she's got her camera rolling at the press etc. Or snapping pics of everyone outside.

Makes me think she wants to issue another case.
MOO of course

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[flutterby]

Not sure if I'm allowed to share these links but:

https://postcardstoanarcissist.wordpress.com/characteristics-of-narcissistic-fathers/
http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

The mother one specifically says this, but I suppose it could apply to fathers too? (MOO!)

3. She favoritizes. Narcissistic mothers commonly choose one (sometimes more) child to be the golden child and one (sometimes more) to be the scapegoat. The narcissist identifies with the golden child and provides privileges to him or her as long as the golden child does just as she wants. The golden child has to be cared for assiduously by everyone in the family. The scapegoat has no needs and instead gets to do the caring. The golden child can do nothing wrong. The scapegoat is always at fault. This creates divisions between the children, one of whom has a large investment in the mother being wise and wonderful, and the other(s) who hate her. That division will be fostered by the narcissist with lies and with blatantly unfair and favoritizing behavior. The golden child will defend the mother and indirectly perpetuate the abuse by finding reasons to blame the scapegoat for the mother's actions. The golden child may also directly take on the narcissistic mother's tasks by physically abusing the scapegoat so the narcissistic mother doesn't have to do that herself.

 

[Tortoise]

in case you didn't see it


Referring to Ellie returning to her family home in 2012 after her parents won custody at the High Court,

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...taff_raised_concerns_about_repeated_absences/

Blimey - school sec only asked for the sick note, as per the rules.

Yes, the request for a medical note hit a nerve. Her reaction is a sign that this particular absence was something she wanted to bury in a counter allegation,

Two weeks (including weekends) is a long time to be suffering an upper respiratory tract infection which is so bad still in the second week that it prevents a child from going to school, without being seen by a doctor. Possible of course, but Ellie returning to school with facial injuries could be a sign that they were pressured to send her back before they had fully healed, by the school's persistence / and rightful concerns. They had been caught out by the visibility of the injuries and with the broken shoulder happening at that time according to the evidence of experts, Ellie would not have been able to go to school until the pain was manageable for her.

It is interesting that the parents didn't mention the fall into the stairs over the puppy to the GP as the reason for certification/absence. Probably because it was the second such fall into the stairs in 3 months which would have been in the GP's records, resulting in bruising around the eye and to the bridge of nose and forehead.

How would Ellie break her shoulder blade at the rear and bump her face forward into the step at the same time?

They didn't count on that shoulder break being discovered.

I see JG's seemingly unjustified reaction to being asked for medical note, and anger to the school, being a sure sign of her complicity in the cruelty.

I would also be interested to know what days she missed from work at that time. According to her phone call to the school in the first week, the whole family had flu. Was she at work? I know she had one or two days off which she told her colleagues was because BB was away and she needed to look after children. Another lie. Why, if she had nothing to hide and BB was at home to care for the children?

I think this is one very very deceitful person, very practiced at lying for BB. She told the police BB was talking to her in the taxi about cooking chilli for dinner and that she thought of going home because there were not many staff around and she wouldn't be missed, and that BB was kind and loving and not abusive. As she knew Ellie had received life threatening head injuries, she had no reason to lie and cover for BB whatsoever, unless she knew she had been covering up abuse. I think this cover up must extend to lying before they got the children back, otherwise if it was new behaviour, she had no reason to stay with him and cover up for him, and she had every reason to admit she was wrong about him and take the children away from him.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I think she physically hurt the children, but her culpability is as high as his for allowing it to happen after even one episode of violence inflicted on any of them. If she thought he was innocent of the injury to Ellie at 6 weeks, she now had reason to question her judgement.

 

[Gigi-G]

Yes, the request for a medical note hit a nerve. Her reaction is a sign that this particular absence was something she wanted to bury in a counter allegation,

Two weeks (including weekends) is a long time to be suffering an upper respiratory tract infection which is so bad still in the second week that it prevents a child from going to school, without being seen by a doctor. Possible of course, but Ellie returning to school with facial injuries could be a sign that they were pressured to send her back before they had fully healed, by the school's persistence / and rightful concerns. They had been caught out by the visibility of the injuries and with the broken shoulder happening at that time according to the evidence of experts, Ellie would not have been able to go to school until the pain was manageable for her.

It is interesting that the parents didn't mention the fall into the stairs over the puppy to the GP as the reason for certification/absence. Probably because it was the second such fall into the stairs in 3 months which would have been in the GP's records, resulting in bruising around the eye and to the bridge of nose and forehead.

How would Ellie break her shoulder blade at the rear and bump her face forward into the step at the same time?

They didn't count on that shoulder break being discovered.

I see JG's seemingly unjustified reaction to being asked for medical note, and anger to the school, being a sure sign of her complicity in the cruelty.

I would also be interested to know what days she missed from work at that time. According to her phone call to the school in the first week, the whole family had flu. Was she at work? I know she had one or two days off which she told her colleagues was because BB was away and she needed to look after children. Another lie. Why, if she had nothing to hide and BB was at home to care for the children?

I think this is one very very deceitful person, very practiced at lying for BB. She told the police BB was talking to her in the taxi about cooking chilli for dinner and that she thought of going home because there were not many staff around and she wouldn't be missed, and that BB was kind and loving and not abusive. As she knew Ellie had received life threatening head injuries, she had no reason to lie and cover for BB whatsoever, unless she knew she had been covering up abuse. I think this cover up must extend to lying before they got the children back, otherwise if it was new behaviour, she had no reason to stay with him and cover up for him, and she had every reason to admit she was wrong about him and take the children away from him.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I think she physically hurt the children, but her culpability is as high as his for allowing it to happen after even one episode of violence inflicted on any of them. If she thought he was innocent of the injury to Ellie at 6 weeks, she now had reason to question her judgement.

Excellent post Thank you. It threw this idea into my head.
Re bruising, grazes, cuts, lumps. They can pretty much be explained away. Most children with siblings and an excitable puppy will surely have a selection of bumps n cuts etc. My 2 boys were forever playing superman (to the extent he stood on the swing. Swung it hard n jumped off hoping to fly) #fail
We ended up in the A&E with a greenstick fracture. With a nice graze and an egg on his forehead something rather like you'd see Tom from Tom n jerry have.

But besides all that. There's accidents and inflicted injuries.
I'm pushing that the RTI (respitory infection) for 9 school days 2 weeks including weekends.
Would of required a doc visit to confirm. Plus a course of antibiotics. I know this cuz I have an infection every few weeks. (CF) I have a rescue pack of antibiotics and steroids at home always. To self medicate.
So I'm sure that JG is winging in on this one. And what it's actually covering is the fractured scapula... remember one specialist saying for first 10 days will be a lot of pain. Excruciating pain initially.
And it falls about the right time.

RTI = SCAPULA FRACTURE.

Hence no doctors note....

I'm sure if pin pointed timings with school absences. They too would tally up with other (hard to disguise) injuries.

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[Gigi-G]

FYI......

I know this isn't to do with this case but I felt it important enough to post. As I myself have Bronchiectasis (a type of cystic fibrosis.) And suffer with heat as it is. Being on 2r hour oxygen. So heads up guys whoever in UK.
Hayfever sufferers too may find it irritating. Also maybe non hayfever sufferers may have symptoms.

Toxic cloud alert and health warnings issued as Brits enjoy scorching weekend

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-dust-7915601#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare

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[Tortoise]

Then on the evening of July 27 internet searches were made for "six year old urinating to be bad" and "six year old heard a voice in her head", the court heard.

She also allegedly searched the web for "I am with a bully who beats me and tells me I am ugly and fat and hurts me all the time".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dads-abusive-texts-reveal-toxic-7788206

An article from a few weeks ago, so no new information but I just wanted to comment on these excerpts.

BIB 1 - This makes me very upset. Ellie wetting herself in her own home, the place where she is supposed to feel safest, a sanctuary with her own family. And "to be bad". That has to be some twisted logic and a glimpse into the mother's mind there. Who, but a bully herself, would assume a child who has suddenly become incontinent is doing it purposely to be bad. That is demonising the child. She wasn't a toddler any more, exerting control by that type of tantrum/behaviour. My first thought would be that the child is terrified of something, if illness/bladder infection has been ruled out. This was (according to the headmaster) at the time the family were allegedly away on their summer holiday, and the reason why Ellie missed the end of term. I have to wonder if there is some truth in your theory flutterby, that the mother was scapegoating Ellie too.

BIB 2 - She can't deny in court that he is physically abusive.

In a letter she wrote to him she refers to a new job, so unless she had two new jobs that year it can be pinpointed to October approximately. She refers to something she had done for him the previous week, to demonstrate that she would do anything for him.

 

[Legally Bland]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know why the overturned conviction from 2007 has been allowed as evidence?

Is it so the prosecution can try and show a pattern of abuse by the parent(s).

Or the defence can try and show a pattern of victimisation of the parents by SS etc.

Or both/something else.

Just curious, my gut feeling is it's supposed to be for the benefit of the defence, but will backfire. I think it would have been a pretty uphill task for the prosecution to get an overturned conviction admitted.