GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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  • #241
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know why the overturned conviction from 2007 has been allowed as evidence?

Is it so the prosecution can try and show a pattern of abuse by the parent(s).

Or the defence can try and show a pattern of victimisation of the parents by SS etc.

Or both/something else.

Just curious, my gut feeling is it's supposed to be for the benefit of the defence, but will backfire. I think it would have been a pretty uphill task for the prosecution to get an overturned conviction admitted.

Excellent thinking, I must admit I was confused that it had been allowed in to evidence, but I hadn't really pondered why.

It has to be at the insistence of the defendants, because they have a right to have it withheld from the jury I believe. So they thought it would add weight to their case - they are the victims.

Thinking more on it, why would the Crown want the jury to know they had been exonerated?

I think you're right, it will backfire. The jury is not going to think that the appeal judge was unquestionably right, they will see it as being something the CPS couldn't prove to the standard required, because there were conflicting expert opinions. It adds weight to the prosecution case in my view. It isn't coincidence that in a very short life there were 3 skull fractures, skull trauma, a history of bleeds on the brain, a broken shoulder not treated, and two black eyes and other head bruising, as well as many unexplained absences from school in less than two terms. And a child who is wetting herself as I've honed in on above.
 
  • #242
Idk really. Usually the courts do not rely on evidence from prior historic cases. Unless since all these 'historical sexual abuse' with Jimmy Savile and Bill Cosby.
Maybe it has been added as a clause 'if any cases concerning the accused are of relative similarity.' Blah blah blah.

Then on the other hand it could be just that Ellie was only back in the family unit less than a year.
And there is an awful lot of media coverage from the cases online.
Plus the similarity of both cases.
There just maybe a mention of it in the Judges summing up. Nearer the end of the trial.

The decision from 2007 that was overturned. Was after BB and JG took an appeal on BB'S sentence. They both did extensive research on SBS. And traumatic birthing procedures. Together with that they presented their findings to their solicitor. Who in turn referred it to the relevant Medical specialists. Where a case was drawn up. And the sitting Judge over ruled the decision of a custodial sentence. And recorded Ellie's injuries were the result of a Ventouse delivery. Which in turn gave Ellie a bleed on the brain.. ...... as to what extent those injuries affected Ellie. Will only become apparent as and when. She already wears glasses. Possibly to help rectify her one eye which seems to have a slight turn.

So I think the court is trying to dot the i's and cross the t's.

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  • #243
Not sure if I'm allowed to share these links but:

https://postcardstoanarcissist.wordpress.com/characteristics-of-narcissistic-fathers/
http://parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html

The mother one specifically says this, but I suppose it could apply to fathers too? (MOO!)

Tx for links.
Their email to the head, pasted just above displays definite attention-seeking/narcissistic overtones for me, we are special, we want special treatment, everyone in the world knows about us and how awful it has been for us.
I tried to see which type of personality disorder these two might fit under, ( just because they both seem, to me, to be extreme and obsessive characters, ) so I will take a look at NPD.

They say that prisons are full of common or garden sociopaths ie. anti-social personality disorder as well as psychopaths.
I know you often get overlaps with other PDs - eg anti-social "co-morbid"(?) with NPD.

I do wonder if we will get to hear some MH evaluation of either of these two. I would expect her barrister to have a report on her, pull it out of the bag, when it's sentencing time as mitigation - or is she simply too defensive to even allow a consultation?
 
  • #244
Excellent thinking, I must admit I was confused that it had been allowed in to evidence, but I hadn't really pondered why.

It has to be at the insistence of the defendants, because they have a right to have it withheld from the jury I believe. So they thought it would add weight to their case - they are the victims.

Thinking more on it, why would the Crown want the jury to know they had been exonerated?

I think you're right, it will backfire. The jury is not going to think that the appeal judge was unquestionably right, they will see it as being something the CPS couldn't prove to the standard required, because there were conflicting expert opinions. It adds weight to the prosecution case in my view. It isn't coincidence that in a very short life there were 3 skull fractures, skull trauma, a history of bleeds on the brain, a broken shoulder not treated, and two black eyes and other head bruising, as well as many unexplained absences from school in less than two terms. And a child who is wetting herself as I've honed in on above.

Yeah, admittedly I haven't read a lot of the articles just the excellent posts on here, but at times it seems as though BB & JG are effectively being retried for the 2007 injury.

Not that it bothers me, my mind was made up some time ago.
 
  • #245
Yeah, admittedly I haven't read a lot of the articles just the excellent posts on here, but at times it seems as though BB & JG are effectively being retried for the 2007 injury.

Not that it bothers me, my mind was made up some time ago.
The initial case in 2007. BB represented himself. HE done all the research. While on bail in prison. JG too was also searching her medical records. And the doctor's/midwife/nursing staff.

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  • #246
Yeah, admittedly I haven't read a lot of the articles just the excellent posts on here, but at times it seems as though BB & JG are effectively being retried for the 2007 injury.

Not that it bothers me, my mind was made up some time ago.

I suppose something else to bear in mind is the historic nature of some of the evidence, skull fractures/bleeding on brain. How for the jury to assimilate this evidence without knowing something or anything about Ellie's 2007 hospital admission.
 
  • #247
Yes, the request for a medical note hit a nerve. Her reaction is a sign that this particular absence was something she wanted to bury in a counter allegation,

Two weeks (including weekends) is a long time to be suffering an upper respiratory tract infection which is so bad still in the second week that it prevents a child from going to school, without being seen by a doctor. Possible of course, but Ellie returning to school with facial injuries could be a sign that they were pressured to send her back before they had fully healed, by the school's persistence / and rightful concerns. They had been caught out by the visibility of the injuries and with the broken shoulder happening at that time according to the evidence of experts, Ellie would not have been able to go to school until the pain was manageable for her.

It is interesting that the parents didn't mention the fall into the stairs over the puppy to the GP as the reason for certification/absence. Probably because it was the second such fall into the stairs in 3 months which would have been in the GP's records, resulting in bruising around the eye and to the bridge of nose and forehead.

How would Ellie break her shoulder blade at the rear and bump her face forward into the step at the same time?

They didn't count on that shoulder break being discovered.

I see JG's seemingly unjustified reaction to being asked for medical note, and anger to the school, being a sure sign of her complicity in the cruelty.

I would also be interested to know what days she missed from work at that time. According to her phone call to the school in the first week, the whole family had flu. Was she at work? I know she had one or two days off which she told her colleagues was because BB was away and she needed to look after children. Another lie. Why, if she had nothing to hide and BB was at home to care for the children?

I think this is one very very deceitful person, very practiced at lying for BB. She told the police BB was talking to her in the taxi about cooking chilli for dinner and that she thought of going home because there were not many staff around and she wouldn't be missed, and that BB was kind and loving and not abusive. As she knew Ellie had received life threatening head injuries, she had no reason to lie and cover for BB whatsoever, unless she knew she had been covering up abuse. I think this cover up must extend to lying before they got the children back, otherwise if it was new behaviour, she had no reason to stay with him and cover up for him, and she had every reason to admit she was wrong about him and take the children away from him.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I think she physically hurt the children, but her culpability is as high as his for allowing it to happen after even one episode of violence inflicted on any of them. If she thought he was innocent of the injury to Ellie at 6 weeks, she now had reason to question her judgement.

BIB Absolutely. Otherwise her behaviour is not logical.
UL Work absence. JG phones school circa 5/10/13 to say whole family has flu ( aka Ellie has broken shoulder, IMO) . She had not started the new job on 5/10. Work colleague testified that by the day she upped & rushed off, she had only been in the job" less than 2 weeks" which means she started the new job around the 14th Oct ish.
Ellie is off sick 9 days, from circa 5 th - 14th Oct ( Mon) presumably in acute shoulder pain and towards the end of the 9 days, she gets the "bruises from chasing the family's new Jack Russell puppy" ( NB. the expert testified to an old "skull bruising" injury that fits with this period.)

Anyways, it's plausible that before she started the new graphics job circa 14th Oct, she had a gap, with no job, just looking for work .......
........thus it's possible she was at home for the whole 9 days of Ellie's school absence and if that's true she could even have been home/or at the very least unemployed & thus available to do some childcare at the time the shoulder injury occurred.

( The only complication here is that the experts have given different estimates for the time of the shoulder. Personally I can't see how it could have occurred at any other time than this 9 day absence in Oct, looking at the school record. )

PS 5th can't be accurate as it's a Saturday, so maybe the call to school was Fri 4th?
A 9 school day absences is diff to 9 calendar days of course.
 
  • #248
Yeah, admittedly I haven't read a lot of the articles just the excellent posts on here, but at times it seems as though BB & JG are effectively being retried for the 2007 injury.

Not that it bothers me, my mind was made up some time ago.
Also. By the forensic examination/post mortem duly done on Ellie to raise the cause of death. They will of noted the skull anomalies. The bleeds. And the fact they can virtuality give a reasonable time frame/date these were attributed. I'm guessing that's also why the 'historic' 2007 case was brought up. So that injury can be signed off.
Plus any other 'old' injuries. And not to forget. It wasn't until Ellie was taken by Coroner for post mortem. Such as her fractured scapula.

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  • #249
  • #250
Also. By the forensic examination/post mortem duly done on Ellie to raise the cause of death. They will of noted the skull anomalies. The bleeds. And the fact they can virtuality give a reasonable time frame/date these were attributed. I'm guessing that's also why the 'historic' 2007 case was brought up. So that injury can be signed off.
Plus any other 'old' injuries. And not to forget. It wasn't until Ellie was taken by Coroner for post mortem. Such as her fractured scapula.

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Does this shed any light on it? double jeopardy ? 2005 change in law.

A legal principle which prevents people being tried for the same crime twice has been scrapped in England and Wales.
The ban on "double jeopardy", which has existed for around 800 years, took effect from Monday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4406129.stm

http://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/disclosure-previous-convictions-court-proceedings/
this one explains previous convictions which may have relevance for BB & JG? yes state can bring up previous convictions if defendant claims good character.

ETA - no it can't DJ rule still applies to lesser offences like GBH ( SBS) so scratch that!
 
  • #251
Is the previous trail definitely being heard in court?

I believe there was supposed to be some discussion (without the jury) about how much of it was admissible on the day I went to court (on the 3rd, at noon) but that didn't happen and the trail just resumed at 2pm with the jury
 
  • #252
I'm wondering if either of this pair will give evidence. They will have some tough questions to answer. They may just prefer to see what can be proved without their input, but I'm not sure if things like Peppa Pig can get into evidence without it. Maybe they will just leave it to the fact that it was in the DVD player.
 
  • #253
Is the previous trail definitely being heard in court?

I believe there was supposed to be some discussion (without the jury) about how much of it was admissible on the day I went to court (on the 3rd, at noon) but that didn't happen and the trail just resumed at 2pm with the jury

It has been referred to frequently, always with the added description that the conviction was quashed on appeal.
 
  • #254
I'm wondering if either of this pair will give evidence. They will have some tough questions to answer. They may just prefer to see what can be proved without their input, but I'm not sure if things like Peppa Pig can get into evidence without it. Maybe they will just leave it to the fact that it was in the DVD player.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if BB does, if he's convinced he's done no wrong
 
  • #255
Tx for links.
Their email to the head, pasted just above displays definite attention-seeking/narcissistic overtones for me, we are special, we want special treatment, everyone in the world knows about us and how awful it has been for us.
I tried to see which type of personality disorder these two might fit under, ( just because they both seem, to me, to be extreme and obsessive characters, ) so I will take a look at NPD.

They say that prisons are full of common or garden sociopaths ie. anti-social personality disorder as well as psychopaths.
I know you often get overlaps with other PDs - eg anti-social "co-morbid"(?) with NPD.

I do wonder if we will get to hear some MH evaluation of either of these two. I would expect her barrister to have a report on her, pull it out of the bag, when it's sentencing time as mitigation - or is she simply too defensive to even allow a consultation?
Thanks for this Cottonweaver. Throws up quite a few distinguishing features.

I wonder do Narcissistic people. Attract the similar trait when looking for a mate/partner.
Or someone they can feel that it'd be easily to mould to their own personal taste.

Or..... do Narcissistic's use the partner to bounce off. To fill voids or ground them.

Just trying to work out what sort of relationship a Narcissistic would have. Sorry guys suffering a bit today. We've that toxic smog in since early p.m. the sky is a wierd yellowy hue. And its 20° out with humidity at 94 😓
Ceiling fans on full both humidifiers on full with ice packs. I seriously need a nap 💤💤💤💤💬

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  • #256
Excellent thinking, I must admit I was confused that it had been allowed in to evidence, but I hadn't really pondered why.

It has to be at the insistence of the defendants, because they have a right to have it withheld from the jury I believe. So they thought it would add weight to their case - they are the victims.

Thinking more on it, why would the Crown want the jury to know they had been exonerated?

I think you're right, it will backfire. The jury is not going to think that the appeal judge was unquestionably right, they will see it as being something the CPS couldn't prove to the standard required, because there were conflicting expert opinions. It adds weight to the prosecution case in my view. It isn't coincidence that in a very short life there were 3 skull fractures, skull trauma, a history of bleeds on the brain, a broken shoulder not treated, and two black eyes and other head bruising, as well as many unexplained absences from school in less than two terms. And a child who is wetting herself as I've honed in on above.
All noted on the question to add the exhonouration or not.
Looking at it from an outsiders view. I wouldn't really of known. Apart from whatever was written in the media.
Maybe CPS decided that because this case bears a stark resemblance to the earlier one. And given that BB defended himself. That they didn't want him to white wash the Jury into the thought " you know maybe he is innocent. Maybe Ellie tried to do a back flip or an unusual gymnastic act. And slammed into the wall or radiator"

I'm hoping that given the detailed forensic reports. That shows in detail the extent of her injuries.
The lack of evidence gathered from the wall or radiator where he was adamant she must of fallen.
I can't wait until he's cross examined. Because I think he will give rather snooty answers. Basically challenging their results....

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  • #257
BIB Absolutely. Otherwise her behaviour is not logical.
UL Work absence. JG phones school circa 5/10/13 to say whole family has flu ( aka Ellie has broken shoulder, IMO) . She had not started the new job on 5/10. Work colleague testified that by the day she upped & rushed off, she had only been in the job" less than 2 weeks" which means she started the new job around the 14th Oct ish.
Ellie is off sick 9 days, from circa 5 th - 14th Oct ( Mon) presumably in acute shoulder pain and towards the end of the 9 days, she gets the "bruises from chasing the family's new Jack Russell puppy" ( NB. the expert testified to an old "skull bruising" injury that fits with this period.)

Anyways, it's plausible that before she started the new graphics job circa 14th Oct, she had a gap, with no job, just looking for work .......
........thus it's possible she was at home for the whole 9 days of Ellie's school absence and if that's true she could even have been home/or at the very least unemployed & thus available to do some childcare at the time the shoulder injury occurred.

( The only complication here is that the experts have given different estimates for the time of the shoulder. Personally I can't see how it could have occurred at any other time than this 9 day absence in Oct, looking at the school record. )

PS 5th can't be accurate as it's a Saturday, so maybe the call to school was Fri 4th?
A 9 school day absences is diff to 9 calendar days of course.
Totally totally agree. Any normal mother would protect their children at any cost. Even if it were detrimental to their own health... (I'll post a relevant link up in a min)

Evidence gathered stated JG had seen a variety of doctors about Ellie's health.
But only on their say so. It seems JG would rather (if Ellie was bruised etc)
Ask advice over the phone. And treat her with over the counter medicines.
All fine until you need antibiotics.
She is extremely deceptive. He's got the drive to control her and the children. And she will portray BB in such a way that she won't hear anyone put him down verbally.
He has brow beaten her so much over the years. She wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her upside the face.
Even to the point of not believing the doctors diagnosis.
Which led to BB taking up the case in 2009.

They are both prolific liars. And I really really hope that they BOTH pay for such an awful life they gave their children.
Presents are a poor remedy for love.

Send them DOWN and loose the key.

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  • #258
Does this shed any light on it? double jeopardy ? 2005 change in law.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4406129.stm

http://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/disclosure-previous-convictions-court-proceedings/
this one explains previous convictions which may have relevance for BB & JG? yes state can bring up previous convictions if defendant claims good character.

ETA - no it can't DJ rule still applies to lesser offences like GBH ( SBS) so scratch that!
Thanks Cottonweaver. I was wondering exactly this. But I don't think the Barristers will pull up the old case as a mitigating factor. I think it was just pulled up by CPS becuz due to the pure fact there is so much info about it online. There could of been a huge uproar if it wasn't reported.
In the summing up I'm sure something will be said ... something like " you are hear to pass your verdicts..... blah blah blah. We are not seeking justification for the first hearing back in 2009. But we are seeking your response to the plight of Ellie on the fateful October day." Etc etc.
They covered Their asses. (CPS)


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  • #259
Yes yes. Rrrroll on the questioning.... his BB. should be might interesting...

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  • #260
Yes yes. Rrrroll on the questioning.... his BB. should be might interesting...

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Quite gosh not might... time for a nap.... I'm getting my freaking words fiddled
Thanks Cottonweaver. I was wondering exactly this. But I don't think the Barristers will pull up the old case as a mitigating factor. I think it was just pulled up by CPS becuz due to the pure fact there is so much info about it online. There could of been a huge uproar if it wasn't reported.
In the summing up I'm sure something will be said ... something like " you are hear to pass your verdicts..... blah blah blah. We are not seeking justification for the first hearing back in 2009. But we are seeking your response to the plight of Ellie on the fateful October day." Etc etc.
They covered Their asses. (CPS)


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