GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

I think the jury are 'on it' indeed. I've seen some real scrutinising stares (if that is a proper word - spell check doesn't like it) at him, and I've seen 12 deadpan faces to his making light of situations.

No violent upbringing. I wonder how he felt at finding out his real father had rejected him.

He said he left home at 13 to live in London (his family lived in Cambridgeshire). No explanation given for leaving home so young. I'm wondering about youth detention? That is pure speculation btw.

In those instances where he spoke down about JG she stopped nodding along. That's all I can say really, she seemed to just observe him without giving anything away. There is another example he gave of JG's behaviour.

In Jan 2013 (when the texts showed their difficulties) he said JG went really mad, he had never seen anything like it before. She rejected Ellie completely. Ellie took her a picture she'd made and she just threw it aside and said 'leave me alone, just go to your room'.

BB said that made him really angry, because of how important a time it was for the children settling in and the losses they were feeling for their previous carers. Another nod to good empathising skills there.

BIB 1 & 2. No violent upbringing - wow. He's just violent & sick then? Then I have to pause and realise I am getting suckered - it's unsubstantiated isn't it. Only he has testified to that. Youth record - I did previously wonder if his name did not appear on "stuff" because he was under-age at the time so yes YOP isn't an over- reach. ( Being purposely vague in case it is against ToS...)

So glad the jury are giving off the right vibes. brutal killing of a small child - how could they not feel revolted. ( He doesn't get this at all does he - hence his BP badge analogy. )
Incidentally all those PDs we have all looked at, Anti Social PD, NPD etc. They are all classed as "Cluster B" so they have overlapping traits. I am pretty sure zero empathy/remorse is one of the common traits. Ergo he can't really ever put himself in a jurors shoes as he can't think like a "normal" person and consider how they may personally feel about him.

UL That's very callous of him. In January she was pregnant , unwell & getting all that (text) abuse eg. " he expressed his "disgust" that Gray was pregnant again, saying: "It's irresponsible and shocking... Had enough of ur weight and looks and the trouble you bring (sic)". That action of hers does not in itself tar her as a bad mother. However I get what he is implying, that he "saved Ellie" again as in 2007. This time from JG's depression.

Very sad to think Ellie has been in that home with these brand new "parents " for only 2 months by Jan 2013 and she is having to cope with this- utterly bewildering for her- I wouldn't subject a dog to it, seriously. "Toxic atmosphere" as pros said.

ETA- yes , you've provided more than enough Tortoise. Roll on Tuesday for some good news in this case, I hope.
Hopefully we will get some more posters now that the press are reporting his dramas more.

 

[Gigi-G]

Learning how to prepare cocopops? ....... umm someone please poke me.
HOW TO PREPARE COCOPOPS? ...... umm

*sits with head in hands*

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[Gigi-G]

Open mouthed here on some aspects of you reportage, new twists. For example:

From Tortoise's posts:



The volatility example is promising, I hope the Prosc QC does successfully rile him, he makes some big mistakes and goes off script badly and the jury see him for what he really is, as you have said you have concerns when you look at it from the jury's point of view.

These sorts of things are worrying , from your posts, whether it's impact on jury or implications:



Glad judge knows his job and you had faith in him eg.


I bet you are glad you went now, despite your initial concerns.

How to learn to read and write? Umm
Didn't attend school then?

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[Gigi-G]

Couple more snippets and then I think that's it from me, for a little while I'll let others do some talking 'cos I appreciate it can get boring hearing from one poster all the time and it's good to get other perspectives.

He said the whole time that they lived in this place (they moved there specifically for Ellie's return because the old place wasn't big enough for two children) he and JG never shared a bedroom. He slept on the couch.

He was at quite some pains to point out that they weren't ever together as such in a relationship. They had been thrown together by their situation and by their joint battle for the children, but he didn't consider them to be a couple. He considered them to be together only to be parents to the children.

That is really quite odd and it leads me back again to a personality disorder, a problem in forming bonds/relationships.

Child no. 2 is subject now to a permanent care order made last year. Removed from them straight away after Ellie's death.

Other point I wanted to make was about his previous convictions. These were presented to the jury the other day when I was in court.

First assault was 2004 outside a nightclub. He assaulted a man (was it GBH? not sure) and said he was acting in self defence. (This was the one where the psychologist currently in hospital did a report on him, which he says is now out of date). He admitted when viewing the CCTV of the incident that it didn't look like the other guy was attacking or going to attack him.

Another assault in 2010 (after children taken into care) in a kebab shop. He and JG ran out and got into a taxi which was stopped after being pursued by police. He said the guy had touched up his girlfriend, to which JG nodded vigorously. That is the day BB was absent from the dock.

Two other assaults on his ex-girlfriend Hannah Hillman in 2005, as reported fully in MSM.

I do believe there are a few more convictions that the jury has not been apprised of.

With regards to his analytical state of his co habiting with JG. I think she will be wrecked by him saying they're not in a relationship. As that's what 'she' wants. To seal the deal. That's why she's gotten pregnant 3 n 4 times.
Basically Entrapment. 1 pregnancy. Yeah you could pass that as it happened. And it was down to him if he wanted to be in the baby's life or not.
And we've all read his GUSHING speech on babies yesterday. At first he thought they were fkn boring. Then Ellie was born. A tiny mite of mini BB n JG. And he gushed all over the place.

He wasn't happy about the 2nd. but said that was a contraception error (a huh. Like she just wasn't taking any. To pull him into a relationship. A proper lil family and a sibling for Ellie when she's back. Cuz we are fighting we ARE gonna get her back!

And we all heard the gory events around the miscarriage n termination..

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[Gigi-G]

http://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barrister/icah-peart-qc/

Was just reading upon Icah Peart. I have to say, if I'm ever facing a murder trial, I think I want him to defend me

(be back later to comment more)

I hope the prosecution is better. !

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[squish]

Second baby came along, also unplanned, conceived before his conviction, born just after his release.

They kept it a secret from the authorities because of Ellie's care order. JG registered for antenatal care and birth under a different name (previously married name) in a different area and didn't register the father's name.

Someone tipped off the authorities and second baby was taken away at 6 and a half months old.

DNA test was taken and sibling and Ellie were thought due to an error to be half-sisters, different fathers.

JG did her own private DNA testing on access visits (because BB said he wasn't going to fight for a child that wasn't his) and they discovered BB was the father of both, but they didn't tell the authorities until 2012 because they thought if they knew child was his it would increase the chances of child 2 being adopted more quickly.

The bit about DNA interests me; the sisters look absolutely nothing like each other. Ellie and her father look dark and somewhat exotic, while the younger sister is very blonde and has completely different features. At first I put it down to Ellie looking like her dad and the younger child looking like her mum.

The first DNA test showed them to be half sisters, and that BB was not the younger child's dad, which according to BB was an error.

The second test showed BB to be the father to both was arranged and paid for JG, who had a motive for wanting BB to think he was the father, given that he would stop fighting for custody if he thought she was not his.

To be honest I think that he has been tricked by JG, and think the younger girl is not biologically his. JG could easily have tricked him by manipulating the paternity test she paid for and arranged (eg, by taking two lots of DNA from Ellie, or taking the "father" sample for the younger girl's paternity test from the real dad, then pretending this sample came from BB).

 

[Olives]

I have been following this thread with such interest and was finally prompted to join in order to thank you all for the insight. I have a particular interest in this case - partly because of poor Ellie - but more specifically because my eldest daughter was at school with her and my youngest daughter was born in St Helier hospital - so called 'worst in the world'. It isn't. When Ellie died I did quite a lot of research around the case and have been waiting patiently for this evil man to receive justice. I had found one interesting story that i'm not sure anyone has touched upon - relating to JG... she has a previous conviction for a very significant benefits fraud in 2011 (an anonymous tip off) http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Designer-163-10k-cheat-benefits/story-11372434-detail/story.html

 

[squish]

Couple more snippets and then I think that's it from me, for a little while I'll let others do some talking 'cos I appreciate it can get boring hearing from one poster all the time and it's good to get other perspectives.

He said the whole time that they lived in this place (they moved there specifically for Ellie's return because the old place wasn't big enough for two children) he and JG never shared a bedroom. He slept on the couch.

He was at quite some pains to point out that they weren't ever together as such in a relationship. They had been thrown together by their situation and by their joint battle for the children, but he didn't consider them to be a couple. He considered them to be together only to be parents to the children.

That is really quite odd and it leads me back again to a personality disorder, a problem in forming bonds/relationships.

Child no. 2 is subject now to a permanent care order made last year. Removed from them straight away after Ellie's death.

Other point I wanted to make was about his previous convictions. These were presented to the jury the other day when I was in court.

First assault was 2004 outside a nightclub. He assaulted a man (was it GBH? not sure) and said he was acting in self defence. (This was the one where the psychologist currently in hospital did a report on him, which he says is now out of date). He admitted when viewing the CCTV of the incident that it didn't look like the other guy was attacking or going to attack him.

Another assault in 2010 (after children taken into care) in a kebab shop. He and JG ran out and got into a taxi which was stopped after being pursued by police. He said the guy had touched up his girlfriend, to which JG nodded vigorously. That is the day BB was absent from the dock.

Two other assaults on his ex-girlfriend Hannah Hillman in 2005, as reported fully in MSM.

I do believe there are a few more convictions that the jury has not been apprised of.

I am really interested in reading your posts! Your observations are fascinating.

I would love to hear more, and hope you come back soon. I am interested to hear what went on when you were there earlier in the week with the text evidence.

It is interesting that he is trying to distance himself from JG - perhaps to discourage the jury from thinking that they have an ulterior romantic motive for supporting each other's stories?

Or is he planning to further throw her under the bus, if it becomes clear that his current defence is failing?

 

[Gigi-G]

[/B]

The bit about DNA interests me; the sisters look absolutely nothing like each other. Ellie and her father look dark and somewhat exotic, while the younger sister is very blonde and has completely different features. At first I put it down to Ellie looking like her dad and the younger child looking like her mum.

The first DNA test showed them to be half sisters, and that BB was not the younger child's dad, which according to BB was an error.

The second test showed BB to be the father to both was arranged and paid for JG, who had a motive for wanting BB to think he was the father, given that he would stop fighting for custody if he thought she was not his.

To be honest I think that he has been tricked by JG, and think the younger girl is not biologically his. JG could easily have tricked him by manipulating the paternity test she paid for and arranged (eg, by taking two lots of DNA from Ellie, or taking the "father" sample for the younger girl's paternity test from the real dad, then pretending this sample came from BB).

I said pretty much that same thing all along. Altho I felt that. The younger was his. But not Ellie. Cuz I can't fathom. Why his hatred for Ellie? Why just attack Ellie? (If this was the case and Ellie wasn't his then that could so easily explain why he felt so much anger at her)
It's not like his anger at her was a one off. There were many older bruises. Many other marks. The 'hidden' so painful scapula fracture. Numerous bumps knocks cuts and black eyes to face.

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[cottonweaver]

I have been following this thread with such interest and was finally prompted to join in order to thank you all for the insight. I have a particular interest in this case - partly because of poor Ellie - but more specifically because my eldest daughter was at school with her and my youngest daughter was born in St Helier hospital - so called 'worst in the world'. It isn't. When Ellie died I did quite a lot of research around the case and have been waiting patiently for this evil man to receive justice. I had found one interesting story that i'm not sure anyone has touched upon - relating to JG... she has a previous conviction for a very significant benefits fraud in 2011 (an anonymous tip off) http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Designer-163-10k-cheat-benefits/story-11372434-detail/story.html

Hi Olives. Glad you joined.
You are local, have a connection but TBH even if you weren't you are very welcome here.

Yes we rumbled the 2011 stuff, we are Websleuthers we have got her blood group , star sign, the works.

Only joking.

Some issues we have had to vaguely refer to just because of the reporting restrictions so sometimes there is a bit of nudge, nudge stuff on here.

I don't think it can be breaching any restrictions for you ti describe Ellie's personality at school - do you mean Avenue Park Sutton, or the one back with g'parents area?
( we aren't naming youngest daughter nor grandparents etc altho we know their names etc. )

 

[Gigi-G]

I have been following this thread with such interest and was finally prompted to join in order to thank you all for the insight. I have a particular interest in this case - partly because of poor Ellie - but more specifically because my eldest daughter was at school with her and my youngest daughter was born in St Helier hospital - so called 'worst in the world'. It isn't. When Ellie died I did quite a lot of research around the case and have been waiting patiently for this evil man to receive justice. I had found one interesting story that i'm not sure anyone has touched upon - relating to JG... she has a previous conviction for a very significant benefits fraud in 2011 (an anonymous tip off) http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Designer-163-10k-cheat-benefits/story-11372434-detail/story.html

Hello there Olives. Welcome.
It's a terribly harrowing case. I'm sure you've felt it weigh heavy as you know of the family.

It's an odd case. Purely as he seems very forthright. That he's totally innocent hmmm yeah w/e.

As for JG benefit fraud. I think it was picked up a few pages back.
We were trying to work out where she was working at the time. To home life etc etc.
But thank you

It's nice to see new faces.

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[Olives]

You guys are good ! I had this information 3 years ago and it has been so frustrating watching it drip feed into the media.

Thanks for the welcome. I am no longer local - we moved away last year. I mean Avenue school in Sutton, its a really popular school - the houses around it are worth millions - its certainly on the affluent side of town. My Mother in Law worked in a school on the other side of town where sadly cases of neglect etc are more common place but BB & JG certainly not the normal type of parents you'd see at Avenue school (although I never encountered either of them) or the sister (who I will not name).

 

[cottonweaver]

[/B]

The bit about DNA interests me; the sisters look absolutely nothing like each other. Ellie and her father look dark and somewhat exotic, while the younger sister is very blonde and has completely different features. At first I put it down to Ellie looking like her dad and the younger child looking like her mum.

The first DNA test showed them to be half sisters, and that BB was not the younger child's dad, which according to BB was an error.

The second test showed BB to be the father to both was arranged and paid for JG, who had a motive for wanting BB to think he was the father, given that he would stop fighting for custody if he thought she was not his.

To be honest I think that he has been tricked by JG, and think the younger girl is not biologically his. JG could easily have tricked him by manipulating the paternity test she paid for and arranged (eg, by taking two lots of DNA from Ellie, or taking the "father" sample for the younger girl's paternity test from the real dad, then pretending this sample came from BB).

oh oh - that's v. interesting squish.
Who would know if JG collected the sample and did a private test?
Hadn't thought of that only cause I just assumed youngest looked like Mum, Ellie took after Mr.Piggy but a hundred times more attractive.
My gut tells me she was so obsessed with him that she wouldn't risk having a fling BUT it's true, during a break-up , a revenge xxxx etc. it could happen.
Is he the kind of man to bring up another man's kid. No, but if he didn't know.

On the other issues eg entrapment etc. IMO , he has no respect for JG nor her body, he's not bothered what happens and won't wear a condom even if he distrusted her diligence when taking eg the pill. He sleeps with her but says she is repulsive. If she gets pregnant he just expects her to sort it. I am not excusing her - I do not believe in 4 mistakes either ..... she was desperate for him to commit and no doubt thought kids would do it even tho he told her & the world "kids are fckn boring,"

any takers here to conceive with a man who says that?! Bit of a red flag IMO

 

[cottonweaver]

You guys are good ! I had this information 3 years ago and it has been so frustrating watching it drip feed into the media.

Thanks for the welcome. I am no longer local - we moved away last year. I mean Avenue school in Sutton, its a really popular school - the houses around it are worth millions - its certainly on the affluent side of town. My Mother in Law worked in a school on the other side of town where sadly cases of neglect etc are more common place but BB & JG certainly not the normal type of parents you'd see at Avenue school (although I never encountered either of them) or the sister (who I will not name).

Very interesting

BIB ( bit in bold)
I wouldn't have thought that just cause I saw the flat and don't know the area.
So for the staff at Avenue, they may not have been overwhelmed with absence and neglect cases and effin & jeffin parents?

That sounds snotty, I don't mean it that way - plenty of rich kids will be neglected and have rude if not potty-mouthed parents, but I mean the Ellie case would have stood out.


UL ( underlined)
So you don't think we have been jumping to extreme conclusions & wild speculation on BB & JG then? LOL
Did you read all the thread or just jumped in here?

 

[squish]

I said pretty much that same thing all along. Altho I felt that. The younger was his. But not Ellie. Cuz I can't fathom. Why his hatred for Ellie? Why just attack Ellie? (If this was the case and Ellie wasn't his then that could so easily explain why he felt so much anger at her)
It's not like his anger at her was a one off. There were many older bruises. Many other marks. The 'hidden' so painful scapula fracture. Numerous bumps knocks cuts and black eyes to face.

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I think there is such a strong resemblance between BB and Ellie, I would be astounded if he wasn't her real father!

It could be that because they were related, she reminded him of himself in a way that annoyed him?

Or it could just be that only Ellie's injuries have been noticed, and the younger sister was lucky to survive hers?

Edit- what I mean is, younger sister could have been victimised too, but we don't know it as since she is alive and well, she has not been examined?

 

[Tortoise]

Just a note re. the DNA test - it was re-done by the local authority after they did their own private testing and confirmed to be same father.

 

[Gigi-G]

I think there is such a strong resemblance between BB and Ellie, I would be astounded if he wasn't her real father!

It could be that because they were related, she reminded him of himself in a way that annoyed him?

Or it could just be that only Ellie's injuries have been noticed, and the younger sister was lucky to survive hers?

I really don't know. I am really struggling to find a trigger. That would warrant such a barrage of abuse??

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[Gigi-G]

You guys are good ! I had this information 3 years ago and it has been so frustrating watching it drip feed into the media.

Thanks for the welcome. I am no longer local - we moved away last year. I mean Avenue school in Sutton, its a really popular school - the houses around it are worth millions - its certainly on the affluent side of town. My Mother in Law worked in a school on the other side of town where sadly cases of neglect etc are more common place but BB & JG certainly not the normal type of parents you'd see at Avenue school (although I never encountered either of them) or the sister (who I will not name).

It's not a run of the mill abuse case. That's for sure..

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[cottonweaver]

Just a note re. the DNA test - it was re-done by the local authority after they did their own private testing and confirmed to be same father.

Tx for that. So SServices have rigorous procedures and they crossed the Ts and dotted the Is

Do you think SS have given their evidence without the public . ( I am naturally not asking you to spill any detail if you heard anything you can't report but do you know if they have testified for Pros?)

Thinking out loud - I wonder if this independent soc work agency will testify for Def? Even though their involvement with the family may have stopped prior to Ellie's death.

 

[cottonweaver]

I am really interested in reading your posts! Your observations are fascinating.

I would love to hear more, and hope you come back soon. I am interested to hear what went on when you were there earlier in the week with the text evidence.

It is interesting that he is trying to distance himself from JG - perhaps to discourage the jury from thinking that they have an ulterior romantic motive for supporting each other's stories?

Or is he planning to further throw her under the bus, if it becomes clear that his current defence is failing]

This is interesting too. BIB 1 certainly sounds very plausible.