GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Tortoise]

Tx for that. So SServices have rigorous procedures and they crossed the Ts and dotted the Is

Do you think SS have given their evidence without the public . ( I am naturally not asking you to spill any detail if you heard anything you can't report but do you know if they have testified for Pros?)

Thinking out loud - I wonder if this independent soc work agency will testify for Def? Even though their involvement with the family may have stopped prior to Ellie's death.

I haven't heard cw, but not while I've been there.

 

[Gigi-G]

Prosecution QC

http://www.qebholliswhiteman.co.uk/queen-s-counsel/edward-brown-qc.aspx.html

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[Gigi-G]

I think there is such a strong resemblance between BB and Ellie, I would be astounded if he wasn't her real father!

It could be that because they were related, she reminded him of himself in a way that annoyed him?

Or it could just be that only Ellie's injuries have been noticed, and the younger sister was lucky to survive hers?

Edit- what I mean is, younger sister could have been victimised too, but we don't know it as since she is alive and well, she has not been examined?

I don't think any injuries have been picked up on the younger sibling. I'll go check now

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[cottonweaver]

Prosecution QC

http://www.qebholliswhiteman.co.uk/queen-s-counsel/edward-brown-qc.aspx.html

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from your link

Recommended as a Tier 1 Leading Silk in Crime

"His sense of fairness and commitment to justice are unparalleled; he is a fair prosecutor. His gentleness makes him devastatingly effective. Juries love him." Chambers UK (2014) Crime

"A brilliant cross-examiner" Legal 500 (2014) Crime

Those crime cases he has worked on are VERY high profile - Libya nuclear arms, police corruption, corporate manslaughter, particular interest in joint enterprise. . ....
Love to be a fly on the wall in his Chambers, a man like that who usually works with major cases having to deal with this grubby gutter snipe.
Looking at his CV, think it's safe to say the CPS do not intend to lose this case.

PS. Maybe gentle is good, BB doesn't see the bullet coming?
Brilliant at cross- exam . Good !

 

[flourish]

Learning how to prepare cocopops? ....... umm someone please poke me.
HOW TO PREPARE COCOPOPS? ...... umm

*sits with head in hands*

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That's cold cereal, right? Measure 2/3 cup dry cereal into Ellie's bowl. Measure 1/2 cup milk and pour on top of cereal. Add spoon and serve. I can make that into a teaching visual in about 5 minutes for non readers.


This dude is insufferable, not long- suffering.

 

[Supernovae]

I do like the judge, a lot. At first I thought he was a bit quiet and reserved, and not doing enough to keep control of the court. If you were an alien and landed in that courtroom yesterday, in fact even before yesterday with all the shenanigans in the dock, you might think that the Old Bailey was a place where there was no hierarchy, no discipline or respect, where the defendants run the show basically. However, I saw a few glimpses yesterday of the kind of judge I think he is - very experienced, very thoughtful, highly perceptive and on the ball.

There might be an element of giving him enough rope to hang himself, rather than leaving any lingering impression that he had been "muzzled" in his words.

Mr Justice Wilkie, is a very experienced judge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Wilkie_(judge)

He was the judge in the case of Levi Bellfield (Murder of Millie Dowler):

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jun/24/levi-bellfield-life-without-parole

Jamie Reynolds (murder of Georgia Williams):

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-jamie-reynolds.pdf

Bishop Peter Ball (misconduct in public office- clerical sexual abuse):

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/sentencing-remarks-of-mr-justice-wilkie-r-v-ball/

among others.

Here's Ed Brown QC speaking:

[video=vimeo;86108343]https://vimeo.com/86108343[/video]

Here are the prosecution's junior counsel:

http://www.qebholliswhiteman.co.uk/junior-barristers/ben-fitzgerald.aspx.html

http://www.qebholliswhiteman.co.uk/junior-barristers/philip-stott.aspx.html

 

[Gigi-G]

not relevant to this case. But some idea of sentences.

Here is Katherine Smith. She brutally stomped on her sweet 21 months old daughter Ayeeshia. Often left her without a meal so she could score her 'smokes' the sweetheart very often lived on a packet of crisps mouldy bread n juice or water. .. well. She got her reward... 24 years.
Mother who stamped her baby daughter to death slashed in prison attack http://dailym.ai/1XbERRs via http://dailym.ai/android

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[Gigi-G]

I haven't heard cw, but not while I've been there.

Nothing found on the sibling. Maybe becuz she was removed more or less as soon as she was born. ..... and did I read on a post or report or something BB was reported to say. That they got the children back. But at different times. I should imagine that it was quicker and easier to get Ellie from maternal relatives. Than the sibling who'd been rehomed outside the immediate family.

Still doesn't give a clue as to why Ellie was singled out for the Abuse.
Only thing that sticks out in my mind was that the points JG made in her notes. That ....
1) Ellie was wetting the bed. Herself. At any where or time at home or when with BB n JG. As BB had mentioned also "She pi55ed herself in front of my dad. And just sat there sulking"
(Don't know if this was done in home setting or at grandparents)

2) Ellie would answer them back BB & JG. (Over what dont know. Why or how don't know)
We all are aware kids can push yr buttons. Especially if told to do something they will test you out n purposely take AAAges to move or do what's asked etc etc. (Mine still do now)
I found when my kids started school. This became their first oppositional trait.
It's called 'growing up' That's why you set boundaries. So they understand what's wrong n what's right.
You don't get given a 'HAYNES' manual when they are born. Like you do with a car.
It's a life experience for all concerned.

Maybe that what pushed BB's button's. Her cheeky back chat and the toileting issue.. jmo

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[Gigi-G]

Who's attending Court 8 on Tuesday then? I soooo miss live Tweets.
But the Prosecution are questioning. Get ready for fire works n tears ... crocodile ones of course.

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[Tortoise]

Ellie was in care from 6 weeks old to a month before her 6th birthday. When she was being acclimatised to return to her parents BB said (in court) she didn't know who he was. She also didn't know she had a sister.

He described his first meeting with her at a contact centre. Ellie hid from him. He said he was expecting this, and did not hold it against her. He bought her presents, one of them a toy cash register and he played with it until Ellie came out from hiding and eventually came over to see what he was doing.

He also described his first meeting with her sister, who was in care from 6 months old to 3 yrs old. They met in a McDonalds restaurant (I think she would have been 2 coming up to 3) and he said to her, you don't know who I am do you? And she said 'yes, you're Daddy'. He seemed to think that she recognised and remembered him, and he gushed about it from the witness box, how beautiful she was, and he shed a few tears. I tend to think that she wouldn't have remembered him, she had been prepared that the man she was going to meet was her Daddy.

He described with a sense of shock and disbelief how Ellie had never been to the cinema and had never even been to McDonalds. As if this meant she had been deprived by her grandparents. I think he was trying to portray the grandparents in a bad light but I couldn't get the gist of it. I don't think they've given evidence against him but maybe he is going to build on this as a problem during 2013.

The impression I got was that this was all completely strange for Ellie but that confuses me to a degree - if she knew her mother well. I'm presuming JG had kept up a close-ish relationship with Ellie during those 6 years and I would have thought that Ellie would have gained a great deal of comfort during the transition, just from knowing her mum was there. On the other hand, mum was at work for some of the time (not sure when) and we don't know yet just how much time she was in hospital (or in a refuge?) during 2013. If she was absent a lot during 2013, and BB was almost always fuming mad because she wasn't there, and Ellie had witnessed their violence, Ellie probably had a lot of anxiety.

I'm going to put my neck out and say I think Ellie was targeted because of the (previous) relationship with her grandparents. They seem to be a sore point in BB's evidence, he slings a little bit of mud in their direction while also saying that they helped them with Ellie, so as not to give away or leak that they were his main problem. They would have been the people Ellie trusted to talk to about what was going on, even if that was violence towards JG at the beginning. I think that probably built up to a boiling point during 2013 - if grandparents showed a keen interest in seeing or speaking to Ellie, which I can imagine they would, parents then had to find a reason to keep them away - because JG was in hospital having been beaten up by BB, so if they found out from Ellie they would alert Social Services, without a doubt. So the investigations into BB/JG would start up all over again and they would lose both children. Back to square one for them.

I think it was all coming to a head, BB/JG were at risk of being exposed, school had started to express concerns, and BB could not contain his anger and violence because it was all falling apart, having worked for 6 years to clear his name. Younger sister had no outlet to talk, no contact with her former foster carers. They realised that they would never be free of this threat, because it was family.

I'm trying to think if he intended to kill Ellie and make it look like an accident, or if he just lost it. Because there is no way he could have thought while inflicting those injuries Ellie would survive without medical treatment. Need to think about that some more.

 

[Gigi-G]

Thank you Tortoise.

Being there with them in the court. You'd get the air about them. His demeanour her demeanour. Frustrations n anger. It must be very intense for you. As you get to hear details that don't get to the MSM. .Ustinov make you mentally exhausted.

From what I gathered from reports before. He had 2 custodial visits a year. And JG I think was 6. Would be arranged at a contact centre via SS.

I did notice the cold shoulder he gave JG's parents. Yet his family were there. I wonder what they are thinking as it seems their relationship was somewhat strained over the years since he moved out of the family home at 13. To live in London. I'm guessing to stay at at friends. Or flat share. Or sofa surf.
It seems as BB didn't take to his Stepdad. So that spurred him on to leave when he did.
So I'm guessing he probably worked cash in hand on the markets.

Yes with Ellie and her sibling coming back to the family. Must be strange on all parts. But no one deserves to die over it.
Send her to her room. Remove Peppa Pig. No sweets. No pocket money. You can't EVER lash out at a child and HE knew he suffered with an uncontrollable rage.
This was an accident waiting to happen. I'm sorry to say.

SS slipped up. There should of been visits done with a member of SS at their house (BB & JG) over a period of a few month's to allow a smooth transition into their home... a safe n smooth one.
This transition failed majorly. Just a lil help with integration would of seen any problems before the children were signed over. Jmo

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[Tortoise]

In fact the more I think about it the more I am convinced that this was the reason. Ellie was dangerous to him, a threat to his future. She would always have that potential to ruin him. With JG he knew he could do anything at all to her and she would never tell. She had proved that to him. She "would die for him".

I think that's why my ears pricked up when the headmaster referred to the grandparents in the last (angry) email JG sent him a week before Ellie's death. I didn't get the full context but it mentioned access. It was all coming to a head.

The list of problems they had with Ellie is revealing. 'lying, feel you can't trust her, has an invisible friend, urinating to be bad, answers back, argues, manipulative, etc..' That to me suggests that they were building a case for something. Problems that they felt involved the grandparents in some way or that they wanted to allege were caused by their interference, or merely to show that Ellie was not to be believed if anyone started prying.


Why would JG pray 'please make Ben be there if I have a baby boy'? What is that about? Does that mean only if I have a boy, not if I have a girl?

 

[Tortoise]

I have a few observations to make about the account he gave in court on Friday, of what happened on the night of Ellie's head injuries as a 6 week old baby.

BB said JG was an hour late arriving because she had fed Ellie and then had to change a dirty nappy. When JG dropped her off she dropped off milk bottles as well and said she had been told Ellie was having a growth spurt, so he should feed her. She arrived in her car seat, asleep, which was when they both agreed she looked as white as a sheet. After taking her up to his room, he took her out of her car seat and tried to feed her but she wasn't interested so he put her back in her car seat and put her on the floor next to him while he played on his computer. He said she usually slept with her fists together like a boxer in front of her chest but when he looked her arms were laying floppy by her sides and he knew something wasn't right. That was when he put her on the bed and called his friend from the next room to see and asked him to call an ambulance.

1. Why feed Ellie if she had just had a feed before leaving JG's home nearby and wasn't showing signs of needing a feed / being hungry / crying?
2. Why feed a sleeping baby?
3. Why would Ellie still be asleep (with her fists up) after he disturbed her and tried to feed her?
4. Why would a baby keep control of her hands/arms while asleep?
5. How would he know her usual arm position and if it was what she always did - a) he hadn't seen much of her and this was only the 2nd time she had slept at his place and had only just got there, b) babies don't usually sleep all night in car seats, this wasn't a laid out baby in a cot or in a normal sleeping position, c) babies in my experience don't have one general arm position, they may prefer to sleep on their sides or fronts/backs but a baby in a car seat is not likely to have much option for positioning their arms
6. Why would he think arms by her sides was not just a fully relaxed sleep?

I really don't believe he would have been that observant of her, while playing on a computer, to notice her arms had moved or to think that was immediately a sign that there was something drastically wrong.

Sorry BB, I don't believe one word of your account.

I've only just realised fully why the judge stopped him from saying the cyst in Ellie's throat caused her collapse. The court has obviously agreed that the way to present this evidence to the jury was to say that following the quashing of the conviction, it has never been established in court what caused her collapse.

 

[cottonweaver]

In fact the more I think about it the more I am convinced that this was the reason. Ellie was dangerous to him, a threat to his future. She would always have that potential to ruin him. With JG he knew he could do anything at all to her and she would never tell. She had proved that to him. She "would die for him".

I think that's why my ears pricked up when the headmaster referred to the grandparents in the last (angry) email JG sent him a week before Ellie's death. I didn't get the full context but it mentioned access. It was all coming to a head.

The list of problems they had with Ellie is revealing. 'lying, feel you can't trust her, has an invisible friend, urinating to be bad, answers back, argues, manipulative, etc..' That to me suggests that they were building a case for something. Problems that they felt involved the grandparents in some way or that they wanted to allege were caused by their interference, or merely to show that Ellie was not to be believed if anyone started prying.


Why would JG pray 'please make Ben be there if I have a baby boy'? What is that about? Does that mean only if I have a boy, not if I have a girl?

BIBs Defo. Speculated similarly in post 267- g'parents are a risk

PS. On reflection I am thinking the grandparents are the biggest risk for them in discovery of abuse of Ellie - if she ever had access to them and she was going to tell, it would possibly be them, if she was ever allowed to be with them alone. Aug 5th text, BB is referring to Grandma as "scum"

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page18

Way back on those old pages we tried to figure out how he managed to get Ellie to keep schtum.
I do think and have for a while that there is resentment on his part against those g'ps. In the first 2012 interviews ( injustice blogs) he never mentions them but GUSHES over the fosters' excellent care of youngest.

I agree with Gigi and as others have said there are at least 2 or 3 other reasons why youngest doesn't bear the brunt BUT I do think, for this narcissistic man that Ellie already having had a great male role model she had bonded with ( gramps) would have been an issue for him.
PLUS those gps know EVERYTHING , unlike the fosters who will not have known the full history of the JG BB relationship from 2004 onwards.
Once BB has a grudge ( police, Sutton social s, the local hospital) he doesn't let go, he is such a blame merchant/deflecter

I hope those grandparents are not going to put through more hell by his Defence ( I looked at Milly Dowler's parents nightmare with the Defence cross, at Bellfield's instructions, after seeing SuperNovae's links. Just awful)
I cannot see why he would take the risk though of getting gps on the stand - opening Pandora's box that strategy.

We also know he changes his story as and when it suits his story. So at some point he will doubtless make the opposite point - how grateful he is to the gps. Just like he refers to JG as his "wife" in court when it suits and then contradictorily tells us he was on the couch, they were friends/parents mainly - their relationship was over but they shared a roof. The "man" is full of BS

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it was all coming to a head, BB/JG were at risk of being exposed, school had started to express concerns, and BB could not contain his anger and violence because it was all falling apart, having worked for 6 years to clear his name. Younger sister had no outlet to talk, no contact with her former foster carers. They realised that they would never be free of this threat, because it was family.

I'm trying to think if he intended to kill Ellie and make it look like an accident, or if he just lost it. Because there is no way he could have thought while inflicting those injuries Ellie would survive without medical treatment. Need to think about that some more.

RSBM
BIB 1 Wholeheartedly agree. The pressure was bad in 2009 but after being exonerated before and now for him to think all that ( his restoration, pride even, publicity appearances) was about to fall away beneath him. Plus he just couldn't hack living with 2 children nor a live-in relationship. He's got the GPs on side - as we discussed many pages ago - but this school is a big problem and I have no doubt that SServices were also trying to meet with them. Your school- testimony-day-reporting made it crystal clear they were in the , trying to wangle sick notes continually, slamming down phones, deflecting by claiming prejudice.

( On your other topic about gparents - ID believe that a contact agreement was not made for them to see the child they had raised for 5 years- it doesn't make sense.

UL - Never considered that before, but I get what you mean - close down the risk permanently. TBH I think he would have planned it better had it been premed murder.

I still don't understand after the shoulder and some of the other bad injuries ( skull bruising) why he did not leave or get her to do so. He's not dim. She wouldn't leave and he'd seen that he couldn't control himself. I can't work out whose flat tenancy this is so who would find it "easier" to leave. He wouldn't have let her go to gramps but he has some kind of support from his family. (Friday court day)
Did he get sadistic pleasure from it? He tells the psych in 2004 he is of low mood 2-3 times a week and battering another bloke makes him feel better.
i suppose we're just not crazy enough to get any of it.

 

[cottonweaver]

I have a few observations to make about the account he gave in court on Friday, of what happened on the night of Ellie's head injuries as a 6 week old baby.

BB said JG was an hour late arriving because she had fed Ellie and then had to change a dirty nappy. When JG dropped her off she dropped off milk bottles as well and said she had been told Ellie was having a growth spurt, so he should feed her. She arrived in her car seat, asleep, which was when they both agreed she looked as white as a sheet. After taking her up to his room, he took her out of her car seat and tried to feed her but she wasn't interested so he put her back in her car seat and put her on the floor next to him while he played on his computer. He said she usually slept with her fists together like a boxer in front of her chest but when he looked her arms were laying floppy by her sides and he knew something wasn't right. That was when he put her on the bed and called his friend from the next room to see and asked him to call an ambulance.

1. Why feed Ellie if she had just had a feed before leaving JG's home nearby and wasn't showing signs of needing a feed / being hungry / crying?
2. Why feed a sleeping baby?
3. Why would Ellie still be asleep (with her fists up) after he disturbed her and tried to feed her?
4. Why would a baby keep control of her hands/arms while asleep?
5. How would he know her usual arm position and if it was what she always did - a) he hadn't seen much of her and this was only the 2nd time she had slept at his place and had only just got there, b) babies don't usually sleep all night in car seats, this wasn't a laid out baby in a cot or in a normal sleeping position, c) babies in my experience don't have one general arm position, they may prefer to sleep on their sides or fronts/backs but a baby in a car seat is not likely to have much option for positioning their arms
6. Why would he think arms by her sides was not just a fully relaxed sleep?

I really don't believe he would have been that observant of her, while playing on a computer, to notice her arms had moved or to think that was immediately a sign that there was something drastically wrong.

Sorry BB, I don't believe one word of your account.

I've only just realised fully why the judge stopped him from saying the cyst in Ellie's throat caused her collapse. The court has obviously agreed that the way to present this evidence to the jury was to say that following the quashing of the conviction, it has never been established in court what caused her collapse.

I don't believe him either and I have tried to - considering that medical evidence on SBS is so controversial and still developing. Your 1 & 2 are very true - it makes no sense.

In his first re-telling of this night he said he also had to change her nappy after JG had brought her over. ( IMO that's when the irritation happened and the shake, gritted teeth and some foul language.)

As you say, he claimed all sorts of intimate knowledge of Ellie - yet it was meant to be only the second over-nighter.
Another discrepancy - isn't this the first time that he has given all this info about him making so many visits to JG's to see his new baby? IIRC that's new but please correct me if I'm off on that. Also this "growth spurt " is new - he is embroidering as he has gone through what he said in 2009 and realised , as you did, it makes no logical sense to immediately feed her?!

IMO It's not credible that a new but estranged Dad even asks to look after a 6 week old who they had both previously discussed was "pale" and had noisy breathing - even my best female friends wouldn't want to do, my mum OK - I appreciate people are different but i would be worried sick and phoning /texting within a short time of dropping her off even in JG's scenario, it's her first born..... however much she wanted a night out which I do u'stand.
IMO he didn't want to look after that baby that night and was already p'ssd off with JG firstly for getting pregnant and now asking him to childcare.

Also question for all - how does it work with CSA if you are a Dad on benefits? Are you still expected to do something financially ? I appreciate JG is the last person on earth to be asking him for £ as she is infatuated etc, but might there have been a subtle pressure/hint that he's not paying his way?

 

[Tortoise]

I don't believe him either and I have tried to - considering that medical evidence on SBS is so controversial and still developing. Your 1 & 2 are very true - it makes no sense.

In his first re-telling of this night he said he also had to change her nappy after JG had brought her over. ( IMO that's when the irritation happened and the shake, gritted teeth and some foul language.)

As you say, he claimed all sorts of intimate knowledge of Ellie - yet it was meant to be only the second over-nighter.
Another discrepancy - isn't this the first time that he has given all this info about him making so many visits to JG's to see his new baby? IIRC that's new but please correct me if I'm off on that. Also this "growth spurt " is new - he is embroidering as he has gone through what he said in 2009 and realised , as you did, it makes no logical sense to immediately feed her?!

IMO It's not credible that a new but estranged Dad even asks to look after a 6 week old who they had both previously discussed was "pale" and had noisy breathing - even my best female friends wouldn't want to do, my mum OK - I appreciate people are different but i would be worried sick and phoning /texting within a short time of dropping her off even in JG's scenario, it's her first born..... however much she wanted a night out which I do u'stand.
IMO he didn't want to look after that baby that night and was already p'ssd off with JG firstly for getting pregnant and now asking him to childcare.

It's BS.

What a coincidence - if true - that six weeks after birth a baby develops severe brain trauma (also skull fracture which has now been discovered) and bleeding behind the eyes, that evening of all evenings, not the day before or an hour before, but the minute she is in her father's care!

Same as the other injuries - always falling and making her brain bleed and then breaking her shoulder, falling into the stairs - while in Dad's care.

He's trying to show she had something wrong with her. Why always in his care - not the grandparents care for almost 6 years?

How many times I wonder did she show up at her previous school with black eyes and bruised forehead? It happened twice in two school terms since being with BB.

Other point I've just remembered from the other day in court (the day he pulled a sicky) was that as the prosecution was preparing to close its case the next day, they did a run through for the jury of other points of note, like previous convictions and sister's care order.

It was to do with Ellie's funeral. August 2015 (could have been 2014 but I think it was 2015) maternal grandparents wrote and asked if Ellie's body could be released to them so they could arrange her funeral. Crown agreed and then letters were sent back and forth between JG's and BB's legal teams and there seemed to be no objection and then suddenly JG changed her mind and her solicitors wrote saying she wanted the body released to her so she could arrange the funeral. Eventually after not doing so, she dropped the request and Ellie's body was released to the grandparents. During this time the legal teams were given an opportunity to take more tissue samples. Which they did, and were not prevented or denied their requests. The other team did not raise objection to the summary given to the jury. I really don't know what his rant was about from the dock when he claimed there was a cover up and said Ellie was cremated before they had a chance to do their own tests.

 

[Tortoise]

snipped -

UL - Never considered that before, but I get what you mean - close down the risk permanently. TBH I think he would have planned it better had it been premed murder.

I hadn't considered it before either but let's say he decided to kill her and make it look like an accident. He's not going to get away with it if it's an outright obvious murder such as a stabbing. Let's say the other two occasions were 'failed accidents', Because every time he injured Ellie he stood the risk of her telling someone at school. He may have issued all kinds of threats - you'll never see Mummy or sister or granma/gramps again if you tell anyone - but he would never really know what she might say if encouraged to talk by trained supportive school staff/SS. So his chances of getting away with it a third time so soon after the last, were almost non existent - people aren't going to believe this falling over and looking battered story forever.

So this time it has to be such a bad accident, such a hard 'fall' (right onto her head not her feet or knees or side) that she can't recover. I don't know if he could have pre-planned it better than that. Anything less serious and she might have survived to tell the tale. I just don't see how he can smash her head so hard to break her skull without thinking 'how will I ever get away with this if she survives?'.

Yep, I'm thinking now it was deliberate. Call JG tell her Ellie's had an accident, you can't call an ambulance because they won't believe us and we will lose other daughter. So come home and pretend with me that we were just having a delightful afternoon with tea and cake...

Every time he hurt Ellie JG never said a word to anyone, just as she didn't when he hurt her, because she knows the truth and is culpable for not protecting her children from him.

We've seen her lie to the police 'Ben has never hurt me'. She must have thought they had no proof! She never saw them going through the communal rubbish bins and emptying the washing machine, see what she had been wearing that day on cctv as she left work, and didn't know they could recover deleted texts.

As for his spray of aftershave, I'm wondering if he was breathalised.

 

[Tortoise]

One more point one of the pathologists mentioned - they expect children when falling to put out their hands to break their fall, which is another reason they don't expect to see such serious head injuries from an accident. He said children do it more than adults because of their agility.

I still think the two blows to her head that day will assist the jury, if they are in any doubt, which I seriously doubt they will be.

 

[cottonweaver]

It's BS.

What a coincidence - if true - that six weeks after birth a baby develops severe brain trauma (also skull fracture which has now been discovered) and bleeding behind the eyes, that evening of all evenings, not the day before or an hour before, but the minute she is in her father's care!

Same as the other injuries - always falling and making her brain bleed and then breaking her shoulder, falling into the stairs - while in Dad's care.

He's trying to show she had something wrong with her. Why always in his care - not the grandparents care for almost 6 years?

How many times I wonder did she show up at her previous school with black eyes and bruised forehead? It happened twice in two school terms since being with BB.
.

RSBM

All the BIBs - I hope QC Brown puts it like you have done...but "never with the grandparents" as the conclusion. It sounds strong. From the very earliest injury we know about - every time he is involved there is some calamity - this is what started me off, ( ridiculous I admit), on the Beverley Allitt compulsions-similarity. Every time BA was on the ward alone with a chid, and within the shortest time , one was damaged, every time she wasn't all was well on that maternity ward . Anyway I started to think has he got a MHealth compulsion. Crazy I know.